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RE: Senate to vote soon on tax bill - 12/20/2017 7:15:02 AM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10538
Joined: 7/30/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: servantforuse

The corporate tax rate is now 35%. It will soon be 21%. How is that not a tax cut ?

Because some taxes will be necessary to pay for spending that reduction in revenue, does not. The difference is paid for by somebody else...now or later. Your example is a gift to the corporations that then goes on the national credit card.

So these 'revenue' reductions will work as they always do, this will reduce revenue to the treasury, spending and other taxes necessary to make up any difference and pay for it...keep rolling along.

_____________________________

You can be a murderous tyrant and the world will remember you fondly but fuck one horse and you will be a horse fucker for all eternity. Catherine the Great

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
J K Galbraith

(in reply to servantforuse)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Senate to vote soon on tax bill - 12/20/2017 8:01:07 AM   
bounty44


Posts: 6374
Joined: 11/1/2014
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini
It looks like the rich are going to get richer, and the middle class will be screwed.

um....

"Accurate Headline: Every Democrat in Congress Just Voted Against Pro-Growth Middle Class Tax Cuts"

quote:

Last night, the Senate adopted the final version of a major tax overhaul that nonpartisan organizations all agree will boost economic growth, make the US corporate tax rate far more competitive on the global stage, and will cut taxes, on average, for every single income group in America. Every single Democrat who cast votes on the bill in both legislative chambers voted no. 'Resistance' now requires consigning your working class and middle-income constituents to higher tax burdens, apparently. Thanks to Democrats' unified failure, more than 80 percent of taxpayers will see an immediate cut, with less than five percent getting an increase -- a tiny group heavily tilted toward wealthier itemizers living in high-tax states. More than eight years from now, those percentages would have barely budged, with the vast majority of all taxpayers (including and especially the working and middle classes) receiving tax relief, totaling roughly $7,000 for the average family by that point. These are facts; facts that Democrats and their media allies have gone into overdrive to hide from the American people. Some of this propaganda push has entailed flat-out lying and laughable hyperbole:

quote:

Pelosi: Few things are more disturbing than hearing GOP cheer for raising taxes for middle-class Americans https://t.co/fy3vj5yfn0 pic.twitter.com/gRVMCJk13z
— The Hill (@thehill) December 19, 2017

Shamefully, Republicans were cheering against the children as they rob from their future and ransack the middle class to reward the rich #GOPTaxScam
— Nancy Pelosi (@NancyPelosi) December 19, 2017


In response to the first quote, Mary Katharine Ham quipped, "this would be a good occasion for one of those parenthetical fact-checking chyrons." (The bill cuts middle class taxes). Pelosi also declared the tax reform legislation to be literally the worst bill ever considered on the House floor. By her own standard, Pelosi must find middle class tax cuts more offensive than a law requiring the return of escaped slaves -- human beings -- to their oppressors, among other shameful items. You do you, Nancy. But Pelosi's ridiculous theatrics wouldn't have nearly the impact that they do without many assists from a pliant and ideologically-supportive mainstream media. This sort of lie by omission is the reason why so many Americans have no idea how the tax bill will affect them, which is by design:

quote:

BREAKING: House passes first rewrite of nation's tax laws in three decades, providing steep tax cuts for businesses, the wealthy.
— The Associated Press (@AP) December 19, 2017


My immediate reply:

quote:

AP had plenty of characters to spare to add accurate & important context about the bill's sweeping middle class tax cuts. They chose not to, instead rehashing Democratic talking points. Next, they'll hype poll #'s showing the bill isn't popular for some strange reason. https://t.co/S8ElTdVOdF
— Guy Benson (@guypbenson) December 19, 2017


The most sophisticated line of attack, however, has come from lefty reporters, commentators, and wonks who've fixated on the "temporary" nature of the middle class tax cuts, which many liberals have simply pretended don't exist. Let's set aside the "but the corporate cuts are permanent!" half of this criticism (even President Obama wanted to lower our damagingly inefficient and uncompetitive corporate rates, a goal shared by many Democrats until very recently). Let's once again focus on the "but what about 2027?!" argument. Here's my exchange on this point with my misguided buddy and hard-left MSNBC host Chris Hayes:

quote:

TPC data shows 75% of taxpayers also get a tax cut in 2025. These middle class tax cuts only expire if Democrats allow them to, which they didn't re Bush cuts in 2012. Media framing here is Democrat framing. Pushing back IS a righteous crusade that will likely fall on deaf ears.
— Guy Benson (@guypbenson) December 19, 2017

Ah yes, we've jumped to the hypothetical, wildly unlikely "but 2027!" scenario. Tell me, which of the Bush middle class tax cuts did Obama make permanent? All of them. This (unpersuasive) argument also ignores the ~$7k in tax cuts avg families will accrue prior to that year.
— Guy Benson (@guypbenson) December 19, 2017

Yes, how could we possibly anticipate what might happen, in light of recent analogous history & very powerful political incentives? Rather than being baffled, perhaps you should ask every Dem on your show to pledge not to allow the GOP middle class tax cuts to ever expire!
— Guy Benson (@guypbenson) December 19, 2017


Every Democratic official and candidate should be grilled and pressured by Hayes and friends to vow unequivocally that they'll never vote against extending or making permanent the GOP's tax cuts for the middle class. Will they do so, on the record? And will liberal journalists and commentators ask those questions? Or is this just a cynical way to bludgeon the Republican plan by people who are well aware that most average voters don't know about the budget rule constraints that prevented the GOP from making the new individual rates permanent -- and who are willing to willfully pretend that a magical desire to raise middle class taxes (heretofore absolute anathema to both parties) will unexpectedly take hold in 2027? As I said to Hayes, given the very recent and relevant history and the extraordinarily potent political incentives at play, the only way those taxes would ever go up is if Democrats are in power and decide to make it so. Perhaps to partially fund a breathtakingly unaffordable, disruptive and extreme policy agenda.

So let's hear it, Democrats: Promise us that you'll work with Republicans stop the fake 2027 "tax increase" you keep warning about. And a variant of the same challenge applies to the media figures pushing this narrative. I very much look forward to this programming: "Good evening, and welcome to 'All In.' I'm Chris Hayes. Today is March 22, 2023, and we begin tonight -- as we have every night for the past five-plus years -- with an impassioned plea that Democrats make permanent the Republican-passed middle class tax cuts of 2017." Meanwhile, let's say it again: This tax bill is hardly perfection, but it's unrecognizable when compared to the monstrous portrait painted by the deceptive Democrat-media echo chamber. Are you part of the 80 percent of Americans who will get a tax cut under the GOP reform package? Click through, and find out:

quote:

TAX PLAN CALCULATOR by @maximlott updated for the final bill -->https://t.co/m0vGQ0XH7M
— Phil Kerpen (@kerpen) December 16, 2017


And if you're part of the very small contingent who will lose money under the bill, be sure to call up your favorite mainstream media outlet -- they'll be heavily invested in profiling folks like you over the coming months and years, in an effort to offset the impact of their self-defeating distortions (once the new withholding tables take effect, at least)...


www.comradeslovetownhall.com

(in reply to Marini)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Senate to vote soon on tax bill - 12/20/2017 8:17:24 AM   
MasterDrakk


Posts: 321
Status: offline
OH NO, comrade country destroying conservatives, FACTS!!!

This would be a factual headline, not the factless horseshit you have from twathowler.

Democrats did not vote against a middle class tax cut, they would have voted for that at 100%, the reprehensible, innumerate, fiscally irresponsible welfare bill for corporate bureaucrats which will be one of the largest transfers of wealth from the middle class to the corporations made the bill unpalatable.

Had it been 3 separate bills, 1 would have passed unanimously, 1 would have passed in a squeaker, and 1 would have been shown to be the most ignorant robbery of the treasury in the USA.

(in reply to bounty44)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Senate to vote soon on tax bill - 12/20/2017 8:46:29 AM   
Wayward5oul


Posts: 3314
Joined: 11/9/2014
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Yeah because you can't get any more objective than TownHall.

(in reply to MasterDrakk)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Senate to vote soon on tax bill - 12/20/2017 9:28:53 AM   
susie


Posts: 1699
Joined: 11/21/2004
Status: offline
FR

Can someone where the money is coming from for these Tax cuts? I know I am in the UK but I am interested in this situation.

(in reply to Wayward5oul)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Senate to vote soon on tax bill - 12/20/2017 9:32:31 AM   
WhoreMods


Posts: 10691
Joined: 5/6/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: susie

FR

Can someone where the money is coming from for these Tax cuts? I know I am in the UK but I am interested in this situation.


The deficit, obviously.
That's why evil lefty scum are complaining that the tax cuts aren't a good idea...

_____________________________

On the level and looking for a square deal.

(in reply to susie)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Senate to vote soon on tax bill - 12/20/2017 9:49:06 AM   
DesideriScuri


Posts: 12225
Joined: 1/18/2012
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: susie
FR
Can someone where the money is coming from for these Tax cuts? I know I am in the UK but I am interested in this situation.


The assumption is being made that lower taxes will result in increased economic activity, which will increase Federal tax revenues, thereby paying for the cuts, plus some.

Those on the right believe the assumption to be true.

Those on the left believe the assumption to be false.

If the same version of the bill is passed by both chambers of Congress and President Trump signs it, we'll have the opportunity to see which political side was correct.

Regardless of which side is deemed correct, I predict the other side will have justification as to why their belief was incorrect, blaming the other side for it.




_____________________________

What I support:

  • A Conservative interpretation of the US Constitution
  • Personal Responsibility
  • Help for the truly needy
  • Limited Government
  • Consumption Tax (non-profit charities and food exempt)

(in reply to susie)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Senate to vote soon on tax bill - 12/20/2017 10:01:17 AM   
BoscoX


Posts: 9572
Joined: 12/10/2016
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: susie

FR

Can someone where the money is coming from for these Tax cuts? I know I am in the UK but I am interested in this situation.



Overseas

Corporations are keeping a lot of money overseas because of our extremely high tax rates, and because we’ve now lowered them to become more competitive with the rest of the world a lot of money is going to come rolling in them for that reason alone.

Big government removing money from the economy harms everyone. It’s like throwing your money into a big shit hole - what good does that do you? Allowing entrepreneurs to keep more of their own money will make the economy far more robust and therefore tax revenues will increase because that is exactly what government taxes, the economy.

Corporations do not pay taxes - they pass their entire big government tax burden on to the consumers, with women, children, the poor and elderly and minorities hit hardest (as always)

Look to Venezuela for an example of leftist politics in action

_____________________________

Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; howler minds howl about people.

M

A

G

A

(in reply to susie)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Senate to vote soon on tax bill - 12/20/2017 10:09:56 AM   
WhoreMods


Posts: 10691
Joined: 5/6/2016
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BoscoX


quote:

ORIGINAL: susie

FR

Can someone where the money is coming from for these Tax cuts? I know I am in the UK but I am interested in this situation.



Overseas

Corporations are keeping a lot of money overseas because of our extremely high tax rates, and because we’ve now lowered them to become more competitive with the rest of the world a lot of money is going to come rolling in them for that reason alone.

Big government removing money from the economy harms everyone. It’s like throwing your money into a big shit hole - what good does that do you? Allowing entrepreneurs to keep more of their own money will make the economy far more robust and therefore tax revenues will increase because that is exactly what government taxes, the economy.

Corporations do not pay taxes - they pass their entire big government tax burden on to the consumers, with women, children, the poor and elderly and minorities hit hardest (as always)

Look to Venezuela for an example of leftist politics in action

So you feel that your country didn't have a functional economy under Eisenhower, then?
Corporations are keeping money out of the country, because they don't want to pay any taxes at all. It has fuck all to do with leftist government anti corporate agendas.
If you're going to trot out this bullshit line, that spent the whole of the '80s and all the time since being proven wrong, let's see a demonstration of how trickle down economics works as advertised.

_____________________________

On the level and looking for a square deal.

(in reply to BoscoX)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Senate to vote soon on tax bill - 12/20/2017 10:10:12 AM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10538
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods


quote:

ORIGINAL: susie

FR

Can someone where the money is coming from for these Tax cuts? I know I am in the UK but I am interested in this situation.


The deficit, obviously.
That's why evil lefty scum are complaining that the tax cuts aren't a good idea...

The 5% wealthiest Americans, own 90% of the free speech [sic] in America and can shout very luxuriously into the ear of their reps.

The reps follow orders and the 5% wealthiest soon thereafter...own 95% of the nation's free speech in the bank.

Never mind that 95% of all growth in income since 2008 has already gone to the top 5% with no jobs, no debt reduction and now unbelievably...a fucking tax cut.

You see in America we already know, being multimillionaires and even billionaires...just isn't enough.

The money necessary to make up for these revenue cuts...is borrowed.

_____________________________

You can be a murderous tyrant and the world will remember you fondly but fuck one horse and you will be a horse fucker for all eternity. Catherine the Great

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
J K Galbraith

(in reply to WhoreMods)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Senate to vote soon on tax bill - 12/20/2017 10:12:22 AM   
RottenJohnny


Posts: 1677
Joined: 5/5/2006
Status: offline
FR

Now that the bill has passed I'm waiting to hear the words "welfare reform" again.

_____________________________

"I find your arguments strewn with gaping defects in logic." - Mr. Spock

"Give me liberty or give me death." - Patrick Henry

I believe in common sense, not common opinions. - Me

(in reply to BoscoX)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Senate to vote soon on tax bill - 12/20/2017 10:13:00 AM   
Lucylastic


Posts: 40310
Status: offline
whys that?

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Duchess Of Dissent
Dont Hate Love

(in reply to RottenJohnny)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Senate to vote soon on tax bill - 12/20/2017 10:13:19 AM   
WhoreMods


Posts: 10691
Joined: 5/6/2016
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers


quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods


quote:

ORIGINAL: susie

FR

Can someone where the money is coming from for these Tax cuts? I know I am in the UK but I am interested in this situation.


The deficit, obviously.
That's why evil lefty scum are complaining that the tax cuts aren't a good idea...

The 5% wealthiest Americans, own 90% of the free speech [sic] in America and can shout very luxuriously into the ear of their reps.

The reps follow orders and the 5% wealthiest soon thereafter...own 95% of the nation's free speech.

Never mind that 95% of all growth in income since 2008 has already gone to the top 5% with no jobs, no debt reduction and now unbelievably...a fucking tax cut.

You see in America we already know, being multimillionaires and even billionaires...just isn't enough.

They'll have anybody:

a more exclusive club is needed now, to exclude hoi palloi shit who think they're a big deal because they've blown the money their dad left them...

_____________________________

On the level and looking for a square deal.

(in reply to MrRodgers)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Senate to vote soon on tax bill - 12/20/2017 10:16:13 AM   
RottenJohnny


Posts: 1677
Joined: 5/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
whys that?

That's what I expect to come next or soon.

_____________________________

"I find your arguments strewn with gaping defects in logic." - Mr. Spock

"Give me liberty or give me death." - Patrick Henry

I believe in common sense, not common opinions. - Me

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Senate to vote soon on tax bill - 12/20/2017 10:31:22 AM   
JVoV


Posts: 2389
Joined: 3/9/2015
Status: offline
Neither party has enough control of Congress to pass a real bill, so the reconciliation process was put into play, killing any hope of bipartisanship development or approval of the bill.

Democrats would have to regain both the House and Senate at the same time in order to push through any possible reversals of this budget plan. The House is fairly safe, due to gerrymandering, unless our courts step in.

I want to rail against this bill emphatically. But because my income is primarily from investments anymore, my personal tax burden will likely go down. Still, it's a moral dilemma for me. Less revenue will mean less spending in the years to come, which will cut every government service that is federally funded.

So I worry about our military. We didn't even provide proper armor or communication devices for vehicles in Iraq or Afghanistan. The casualties because of that should haunt us all.

I worry about education, because I'll have to deal with the idiots our schools produce. At some point, they'll be my doctors.

But I'll save a few bucks on my taxes, maybe.

Of course, our Dumbass-In-Chief still refuses to release his taxes.

(in reply to BoscoX)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Senate to vote soon on tax bill - 12/20/2017 10:34:49 AM   
MrRodgers


Posts: 10538
Joined: 7/30/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BoscoX


quote:

ORIGINAL: susie

FR

Can someone where the money is coming from for these Tax cuts? I know I am in the UK but I am interested in this situation.



Overseas

Corporations are keeping a lot of money overseas because of our extremely high tax rates, and because we’ve now lowered them to become more competitive with the rest of the world a lot of money is going to come rolling in them for that reason alone.

Big government removing money from the economy harms everyone. It’s like throwing your money into a big shit hole - what good does that do you? Allowing entrepreneurs to keep more of their own money will make the economy far more robust and therefore tax revenues will increase because that is exactly what government taxes, the economy.

Corporations do not pay taxes - they pass their entire big government tax burden on to the consumers, with women, children, the poor and elderly and minorities hit hardest (as always)

Look to Venezuela for an example of leftist politics in action

What a bunch of unmitigated bullshit. Not a fucking dime of untaxed offshore profits will be coming back to the US. The statue corp. rate is 35%, the real and effective rate here in the US is about 17%.

Apple's effective tax rate in Ireland was .005%...look it up. The EU has ordered Ireland to collect $$13 billion in taxes [it] says Apple really owes.

The idea that corp. don't pay taxes, customers do, essentially means nothing. Once done, the corp. owns that capital, you don't and from there on it is corp. money. Never happened in the history of mankind that the corp. its reason for existence is the highest untaxed profits, where they lower prices upon lowering corp. taxes.

Imagine if you will, with customers also paying wages and bonuses that if we are better off lowering the corp. tax because after all, we pay it, how about we lower all of those wages too, we'd be even better off.

You begin to see why the experiment in the corp., is now finally demonstrated on a practical matter...the end of the American experiment in democratic republican govt.

Actually if an R was running Venz. and there was a profit to be enjoyed and power to gain, It wouldn't look much different than it does now. Fascism, pure, clean and profitable.

_____________________________

You can be a murderous tyrant and the world will remember you fondly but fuck one horse and you will be a horse fucker for all eternity. Catherine the Great

Under capitalism, man exploits man. Under communism, it's just the opposite.
J K Galbraith

(in reply to BoscoX)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Senate to vote soon on tax bill - 12/20/2017 10:48:08 AM   
WhoreMods


Posts: 10691
Joined: 5/6/2016
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

whys that?

He's hoping for a handout, obvs.

_____________________________

On the level and looking for a square deal.

(in reply to Lucylastic)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Senate to vote soon on tax bill - 12/20/2017 10:56:32 AM   
BoscoX


Posts: 9572
Joined: 12/10/2016
Status: offline

FR

DRUDGE headlines right now:

Epic Overhaul Sent To President's Desk...
Lowers Taxes...
Repeals ObamaCare Mandate...
Allows Oil Drilling in ANWR...


TAX CUT CHRISTMAS!
HOME SALES BEST IN DECADE
COHN: MARKET WILL ROAR MORE

MEDIAITE: DRUDGE #4 Most Influential in Media?

_____________________________

Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; howler minds howl about people.

M

A

G

A

(in reply to WhoreMods)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Senate to vote soon on tax bill - 12/20/2017 11:03:51 AM   
WhoreMods


Posts: 10691
Joined: 5/6/2016
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BoscoX
Epic Overhaul Sent To President's Desk...

They're wasting their time sending anything to the spacehopper's desk: the sorry little cunt is too busy playing golf and ignoring his job to spend any time there.

_____________________________

On the level and looking for a square deal.

(in reply to BoscoX)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Senate to vote soon on tax bill - 12/20/2017 11:03:58 AM   
RottenJohnny


Posts: 1677
Joined: 5/5/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods
He's hoping for a handout, obvs.

Gee...let me guess...sarcasm, right?

_____________________________

"I find your arguments strewn with gaping defects in logic." - Mr. Spock

"Give me liberty or give me death." - Patrick Henry

I believe in common sense, not common opinions. - Me

(in reply to WhoreMods)
Profile   Post #: 40
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