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RE: Science event of the year - 12/26/2017 10:38:34 AM   
kdsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

FR
They're not American Indians.
They were there when you whiney bitches' ancestors were still bleating about not being allowed a theocracy in Europe. Calling them "American" anything is a half baked and laughable attempt at co-option.



I have never understood the idea that Indians had or have some kind of claim to this earth because of where they were located at any one time of history. The various groups of HUMANS that migrated by one means or another to the Americas fought, defeated ,dominated, and profited from others to get there. The fact that they in turn were fought, defeated,dominated, and profited from, by another group of humans does not give them a special privilege or ownership of anything.

Every single one of us and our ancestors throughout history fought, defeated, dominated, and profited from others groups of people who in turn had done the same to others. This includes the groups that inhabited the Americas. None of us have a claim to exclusive ownership of land because of our location of birth.

Only the power of our society gives us temporary possesion of the land under our feet.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 12/26/2017 10:48:54 AM >


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RE: The American Indian - 12/26/2017 10:57:35 AM   
kdsub


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quote:

But we also refer to white people as Red Hair folks in our own language. So I don't know what's up with the colour red


I seem to remember a Nova or National Geographic documentary on mummies discovered, I believe in western China, of red haired Caucasians that may have predated Chinese recorded history... Perhaps this is where or the reason for your reference above.

I found THIS in a quick search.

Butch

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Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: The American Indian - 12/26/2017 1:25:44 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

But we also refer to white people as Red Hair folks in our own language. So I don't know what's up with the colour red


I seem to remember a Nova or National Geographic documentary on mummies discovered, I believe in western China, of red haired Caucasians that may have predated Chinese recorded history... Perhaps this is where or the reason for your reference above.

I found THIS in a quick search.

Butch


Variants in any population may become geographically isolated. I don't think it is such a huge phenomenon. Black swans in Australia so I've read, pygmies in Africa, etc) My family is red-headed Sicilian. Red heads in Scotland are ginger. in Italy, titian (after the painter) in Australia, bluey. . . go figure.

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RE: Science event of the year - 12/26/2017 1:26:32 PM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

FR
They're not American Indians.
They were there when you whiney bitches' ancestors were still bleating about not being allowed a theocracy in Europe. Calling them "American" anything is a half baked and laughable attempt at co-option.



I have never understood the idea that Indians had or have some kind of claim to this earth because of where they were located at any one time of history. The various groups of HUMANS that migrated by one means or another to the Americas fought, defeated ,dominated, and profited from others to get there. The fact that they in turn were fought, defeated,dominated, and profited from, by another group of humans does not give them a special privilege or ownership of anything.

Every single one of us and our ancestors throughout history fought, defeated, dominated, and profited from others groups of people who in turn had done the same to others. This includes the groups that inhabited the Americas. None of us have a claim to exclusive ownership of land because of our location of birth.

Only the power of our society gives us temporary possesion of the land under our feet.

Butch

Yep, for a small example, there is little in the way of statuary or archival remembrances for the Irish protestant that had to leave Ireland around 1620 when they saw the Irish aristocracy being forced to leave...or die.

Hell, Christians had redheads burned at the stake.

HERE



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RE: Science event of the year - 12/26/2017 1:36:51 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

Every single one of us and our ancestors throughout history fought, defeated, dominated, and profited from others groups of people who in turn had done the same to others. This includes the groups that inhabited the Americas. None of us have a claim to exclusive ownership of land because of our location of birth.


Mostly agree with everything you say here but the archeological record is an interesting and maybe useful overlay map of ancient human history. So, not about ownership. Guns are about ownership. However, the following waves of gun toting, horse riding, farmers maintained their power by excluding and discriminating against the "originals" and maintained their superior status by insisting the originals were "primitive" which was true of their culture but not their humanity. The "original" toe-hold is important for their dignity I guess.

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RE: The American Indian - 12/26/2017 1:41:57 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
What is your point? Just say it.
Butch


The video starts out: "random pits placed symmetrically"

If the pits were 'placed symmetrically,' wouldn't that be considered NOT random?


Maybe the games are random ???

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RE: Science event of the year - 12/27/2017 4:33:52 AM   
WhoreMods


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

FR
They're not American Indians.
They were there when you whiney bitches' ancestors were still bleating about not being allowed a theocracy in Europe. Calling them "American" anything is a half baked and laughable attempt at co-option.



I have never understood the idea that Indians had or have some kind of claim to this earth because of where they were located at any one time of history. The various groups of HUMANS that migrated by one means or another to the Americas fought, defeated ,dominated, and profited from others to get there. The fact that they in turn were fought, defeated,dominated, and profited from, by another group of humans does not give them a special privilege or ownership of anything.

Every single one of us and our ancestors throughout history fought, defeated, dominated, and profited from others groups of people who in turn had done the same to others. This includes the groups that inhabited the Americas. None of us have a claim to exclusive ownership of land because of our location of birth.

Only the power of our society gives us temporary possesion of the land under our feet.

Butch

Better not complain about those Mexican illegals, then, eh?

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Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Science event of the year - 12/27/2017 7:34:26 AM   
kdsub


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We are now profiting from them... and they us. Despite all the political rhetoric on the subject their usefulness in the dominant society will determine their position in the US not the Republican Party. In my opinion anyway for what it is worth.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to WhoreMods)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Science event of the year - 12/27/2017 10:24:55 AM   
WhoreMods


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

We are now profiting from them... and they us. Despite all the political rhetoric on the subject their usefulness in the dominant society will determine their position in the US not the Republican Party. In my opinion anyway for what it is worth.

Butch

All true. It's been really funny watching the Republican approach to illegal Mexes switch from a sort of tacit acceptance that using them to undercut is illegal and unethical, but is still a good way to keep a business's running costs lower than they could be if they were employing citizens who get the minimum wage, to wall building ranting and vilification of the whole population of Mexico. Of course, that's Obama's fault for actually doing his job and deporting a few illegals, rather than the current tangerine bawbag having any responsibility for it.
(My point about the redskins, btw, is not about land rights due to seniority or any such, just that I find calling people who were there before any of the colonies that went on to become America were even founded "American" anything seems a bit off.)

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RE: The American Indian - 12/27/2017 10:55:10 AM   
MercTech


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesideriScuri

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
What is your point? Just say it.
Butch


The video starts out: "random pits placed symmetrically"

If the pits were 'placed symmetrically,' wouldn't that be considered NOT random?



I took it that the pits were symmetrical in shape but in random locations. Just like a prospector would make looking for valuable ore.
They didn't mention until much later in the video about the conflict over tribal lands after the Black Hills Gold Strike

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Hills_Gold_Rush

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RE: Science event of the year - 12/28/2017 6:51:39 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

We are now profiting from them... and they us. Despite all the political rhetoric on the subject their usefulness in the dominant society will determine their position in the US not the Republican Party. In my opinion anyway for what it is worth.

Butch

All true. It's been really funny watching the Republican approach to illegal Mexes switch from a sort of tacit acceptance that using them to undercut is illegal and unethical, but is still a good way to keep a business's running costs lower than they could be if they were employing citizens who get the minimum wage, to wall building ranting and vilification of the whole population of Mexico. Of course, that's Obama's fault for actually doing his job and deporting a few illegals, rather than the current tangerine bawbag having any responsibility for it.
(My point about the redskins, btw, is not about land rights due to seniority or any such, just that I find calling people who were there before any of the colonies that went on to become America were even founded "American" anything seems a bit off.)

In the meantime however attempts were made to "integrate" the "natives" into American mainstream. The Cherokees had their copy government and boys were sent to the Carlysle School. there were a number of visits between the native chiefs and the white government, and treaties. So, it is not like the Indians were actually divorced from the evolving scene. I think you can make the case they were de facto Americans while being over-run.

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Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Science event of the year - 12/28/2017 9:16:24 AM   
WhoreMods


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

We are now profiting from them... and they us. Despite all the political rhetoric on the subject their usefulness in the dominant society will determine their position in the US not the Republican Party. In my opinion anyway for what it is worth.

Butch

All true. It's been really funny watching the Republican approach to illegal Mexes switch from a sort of tacit acceptance that using them to undercut is illegal and unethical, but is still a good way to keep a business's running costs lower than they could be if they were employing citizens who get the minimum wage, to wall building ranting and vilification of the whole population of Mexico. Of course, that's Obama's fault for actually doing his job and deporting a few illegals, rather than the current tangerine bawbag having any responsibility for it.
(My point about the redskins, btw, is not about land rights due to seniority or any such, just that I find calling people who were there before any of the colonies that went on to become America were even founded "American" anything seems a bit off.)

In the meantime however attempts were made to "integrate" the "natives" into American mainstream. The Cherokees had their copy government and boys were sent to the Carlysle School. there were a number of visits between the native chiefs and the white government, and treaties. So, it is not like the Indians were actually divorced from the evolving scene. I think you can make the case they were de facto Americans while being over-run.

Or that they were forcibly assimilated at gunpoint, depending on your perspective.
Doesn't alter the fact that they predated America, though.

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RE: Science event of the year - 12/28/2017 10:57:29 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods


quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML


quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods


quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

We are now profiting from them... and they us. Despite all the political rhetoric on the subject their usefulness in the dominant society will determine their position in the US not the Republican Party. In my opinion anyway for what it is worth.

Butch

All true. It's been really funny watching the Republican approach to illegal Mexes switch from a sort of tacit acceptance that using them to undercut is illegal and unethical, but is still a good way to keep a business's running costs lower than they could be if they were employing citizens who get the minimum wage, to wall building ranting and vilification of the whole population of Mexico. Of course, that's Obama's fault for actually doing his job and deporting a few illegals, rather than the current tangerine bawbag having any responsibility for it.
(My point about the redskins, btw, is not about land rights due to seniority or any such, just that I find calling people who were there before any of the colonies that went on to become America were even founded "American" anything seems a bit off.)

In the meantime however attempts were made to "integrate" the "natives" into American mainstream. The Cherokees had their copy government and boys were sent to the Carlysle School. there were a number of visits between the native chiefs and the white government, and treaties. So, it is not like the Indians were actually divorced from the evolving scene. I think you can make the case they were de facto Americans while being over-run.

Or that they were forcibly assimilated at gunpoint, depending on your perspective.
Doesn't alter the fact that they predated America, though.


I think you open the way to an interesting thought experiment.

The new world aborigines were physically present before the Europeans but if they came from the West they were Asians in origin before there was a known difference. The Asians were here but where was here? They journeyed a long while to meet the Europeans in the East. All that while we can assume the Asians were still in Asia for all they knew and before they had any decent gas station road maps.

The Europeans for their part were just as ignorant of the origins of the Asians. But, the Euros fished for cod a good five centuries before their awareness of the Indio-asians was fixed (admittedly, my guess) Other than the boats bobbing off the coast what evidence did the Asians have that the Europeans were new arrivals? How is it the Indians perceived themselves to be "first?" and what did first mean? I have in mind that the perception of who was "first comer" formed long after the fact of the first meeting**. Well, it had to, right? For the Indians anyway, because it was only the Euros who believed the self-congratulatory story they had been out searching for something. So, agreed with you the Indians were just tending to their scattered gardens and hunting grounds when they came upon these bands of bewildered, wide-eyed "settlers."

But did that give either group a sense of owning the land? The Indians did predate America. You are right. But then, so did the Settlers. The Mormons of course solved the problem by claiming the Indians were really Jews.

I'm not sure what my point is here other than the line of awareness was not so cleanly drawn in time and space. I suspect the Settlers were just caught up without much thought or knowledge on the migrations that had begun in Africa and split eastward and westward across the Asian Steppes. We believe that shit now. But they were probably ignorant of it all. Destiny was more mundane and parochial. It is only in hindsight that the difference arrived between the two tides of re-uniting humanity. Lots of irony there, I think.

You can tell this is a lazy holiday afternoon for me, can't you?

**Afterthought: the first meeting probably arose from a Hollywood Studio script since we are told simultaneously that many piss-soiled French men were already here seeking furs and screwing Indian maidens before Columbus passed his first gas.

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RE: Science event of the year - 12/28/2017 11:25:18 AM   
WhoreMods


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The vikings and the Irish have prior claims according to many as well.
The basic point has nothing to with where the aboringines who were stinking up the country and preventing people from expanding the colonies* came from though. If they were there before America became a country in 1776 (picking that date saves a lot of quibbling about how old the colonies are, whether the descendants of Roanoke are holed up in the midwest somewhere and much else conspiracy theorists and "alternative historians" dote on) then they predate America and can't be called "native Americans": they might be native, but they predate America.
Your other points are well made. I think a few anthropologists have suggested that some of the stuff in the alarmingly batshit Indian mythology probably refers to them having wiped out or assimilated a few other ethnic groups who beat them to the American mainland, don't they? I don't think the mormons are the only pseudo historians who've claimeds that the Indians were the missing tribe of Israel, either. Certainly they look the part more than the rastafarians do.

As for owning the land, isn't there a famous line from Black Elk or somebody like that about borrowing the land from our children rather than inheriting it from our fathers?

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RE: Science event of the year - 12/28/2017 2:06:19 PM   
vincentML


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Technically, why does it matter when America became a country? That event seems to pale alongside the proclamation that "Amerigo" became the name of two huge continents. Whatever the names, the aborigines were here quite a long while --- millennia before the Euros. Anyway, we agree that seniority does not provide a deed to the land. I am not suggesting that. It would be laughable.

As for stinking up the country and preventing people from advancing the colonies, it would be instructive to take a look at the bathing habits of the bond servants who were gathered up from the alms houses and gutters of London and transferred to populate the new world. I doubt they had any awards for cleanliness that surpassed what the natives had and certainly no awards for family cohesion. Quite a bunch of the bond slaves jumped bail and made their way into the dark swamps of North Carolina. We celebrate their progeny today as the backbone of the swamp-gump and hillbilly nation. Let's face it, to be a voter and to receive the grant of land one had to be a slave holder. So many Englishmen and Irish were impressed into slavery, tiz claimed, and now they just set on their porches whittling wood and spittin into their mouth organs. On the other hand Columbus had to order Natives' hands be cut off to enforce them into slavery. I guess they dug for gold with their teeth thereafter. Don't you think the new world was settled by middle class Brits who were duuped out of their investment money by explorer/trade companies? I doubt the natures of the labor forces diverged much. I hope you don't believe the myths that the Puritans were gracious and good but the indigenous people had a monopoly on savagery and ignorance.

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RE: Science event of the year - 12/28/2017 3:09:00 PM   
WhoreMods


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I forgot to add a footnote to that crack about stinking up the country: it's a paraphrase of something John Wayne said in an interview back in the '50s. Mea culpa.

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RE: Science event of the year - 12/29/2017 11:51:12 AM   
vincentML


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods

I forgot to add a footnote to that crack about stinking up the country: it's a paraphrase of something John Wayne said in an interview back in the '50s. Mea culpa.

Not at all surprising really. John Wayne was at the peak of his popularity during the long era of Hollywood ruthlessly slapping the image of American Indians and recreating them as savages. As if white men never took Indian scalps or slaughtered their women and children. Big John made a nice living out of that slander. His estate has a moral duty to make amends imo. Thanks for clarifying.

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RE: Science event of the year - 12/29/2017 5:44:20 PM   
Edwird


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WhoreMods FR They're not American Indians.
They were there when you whiney bitches' ancestors were still bleating about not being allowed a theocracy in Europe.


They were also already there for the first 150 yrs. of Crown occupation, but it was all kisses and love, then, I'm sure (our common "whiney bitches" ancestors, in large part), and the term "America" only came into existence in 1776. And . . . yeah, well, Anglican Church, not a theocracy . . .
Hmm. From what the rest of us can see, . . . OK so what does "allowed theocracy" mean?

No, wait! I got it. It's a Crown mandated religion, not a theocracy. Praise civilization and solicitors.

Fascinating.


< Message edited by Edwird -- 12/29/2017 5:47:10 PM >

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RE: Science event of the year - 12/29/2017 6:01:24 PM   
Greta75


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
I have never understood the idea that Indians had or have some kind of claim to this earth because of where they were located at any one time of history. The various groups of HUMANS that migrated by one means or another to the Americas fought, defeated ,dominated, and profited from others to get there. The fact that they in turn were fought, defeated,dominated, and profited from, by another group of humans does not give them a special privilege or ownership of anything.


In modern terms, it would be like the US invading China and taking over China, and running roughshed over their culture and instill American culture over there. It is rather terrible, coming to think of it.

Fortunately, some countries like China/Japan/Korea/Thailand etc, all have their original people there running their own country. There may be civil wars internally, and internal squabbles, but they are still running their own land. Not every country got the history of the US where they invaded another ethnicity's land.

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RE: The American Indian - 12/29/2017 6:09:03 PM   
Greta75


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub
I found THIS in a quick search.


Bummer, I can't read anything from Forbes, as they won't let you read their articles if you have adblock on.

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