quote:

ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig

I don't consider myself a sadist, but feel am very capable of hurting someone who enjoys being hurt.   I do consider myself a disciplinarian who could/would hurt someone within a D/s relationship if he were thoughtless or disobedient without an explanation for his contrary/disappointing behavior.   I don't however enjoy needing to punish someone (even as he consents to it), and find the line blurry when it comes to how much discipline is needed/apropriate to achieve the result I want/need.

How does one know whether disobedience is the sub/slave passively resisting or his being forgetful/occasionally flaky?   Would you punish, leave, or discuss alternatives?   It isn't a current issue, but it's something I want to be more comfortable about in my future relationship.

I hope the question makes sense, thanks for participating anyone and everyone.    M

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sylverdawn
I agree punishment and discipline are different. You punish if he/she make a purposeful mistake; ie be home at 5.30 and they arrive at 6.00 without a reasonable reason

quote:

Discipline takes the form of correction.. Poor posture while standing at attention, shoes not polished correctly etc. Discipline used to set the standard to meet inside the boundaries of a relationship. Discipline=Expectation  Punishment=Failure to Perform

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig

I believe the case is one of discipline: Where I would train someone to my desired behavior/expectation, but when the time came, he failed to perform... What do you do when that expectation is not met? Punish, talk or leave?

quote:

ORIGINAL: BlkTallFullfig
Thanks MsPandora, I understand, and I wasn't suggesting I would hurt a masochist for punishment...  I was trying to express disliking punishment, and preferring simply discipline, but what would one do when discipline failed?    M

quote:

ORIGINAL: Misstoyou
The talking comes first...the discussion of the mutual clarity of expectation that was to be met, (that he knew exactly what he was suppose to do), mutual agreement that he was up to meeting the expectation (because if the failure was the result of inadequate training, that's "my bad" and it's unfair to punish), his acknowledgement of his failure, and giving him the opportunity to express his remorse about disappointing me (he damn well better be sorry! lol).

But heartfelt remorse is never enough to avoid punishment. In addition to the negative reinforcement the submissive gets from the punishment (it has to be something he says, "I don't want to have to go through that again") the punishment also reinforces to the submissive that his failure was something important enough to me to expend my energy on. Finally, punishment provides cleansing and closure, the clean slate for him to start again. I personally think the aftercare after punishing is the most important element for changing a submissive's attitude or behavior, and rekindle that drive to do whatever it takes to make me happy.

quote:

Punishment should fit the crime, should reinforce the expected behavior, and should create an aversion towards being displeasing in that manner again.  Some of my favored punishments involve writing, especially reflecting on what being a disappointment feels like, and restrictions of speech or privileges.

quote:

TeeGO
Discipline is for establishing the parameters of who's in charge.  Puts the sub in the proper mindframe of obedience with a reminder of their place

quote:

"To learn the art of submission a slave must first give up the desires that drew him to submission in the first place." Mistress Jasmyn Jan 2005.

quote:

"To learn the art of submission a slave must first give up the desires that drew him to submission in the first place." Mistress Jasmyn Jan 2005.

quote:

"To learn the art of submission a slave must first give up the desires that drew him to submission in the first place." Mistress Jasmyn Jan 2005.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jasmyn

quote:

How does one know whether disobedience is the sub/slave passively resisting or his being forgetful/occasionally flaky?

sometimes pointing it out, you are appreciative that he does try, but that constantly having to correct his mistakes or his attitude/behaviour is tiresome... asking, does he really want this kind of d/s..and if yes, then what is holding him back ...and if it's not, perhaps together you can work out some other arrangment...but to be a committed submissive, or more to the point, to be you're committed submissive, is probably not in either of your best interests

quote:

quote:

I was trying to express disliking punishment, and preferring simply discipline, but what would one do when discipline failed?

 I guess it's not so much a case of the discipline having failed, but in them failing to observe the discipline (instilled?) expected...I'd try to find out why they are failing to observe it and act accordingly ... finding out whether we are actually on the same wave length ... and if not, is there a common ground that could be worked on ..

quote:

thetammyjo
If it is different situations -- different activities, different or more intense levels of service/training, then it could simply be how that person learns. Try, make an error, get corrected, learn and move on. This would be a once or twice error in my opinion.