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RE: The gift of submission. - 8/17/2006 1:34:28 PM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
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quote:

Then you are the only person I have ever encountered that had no expectation of the gifts she gave on even an unconsious level. If someone doesn't appreciate a heartfelt gift it has hurt my feelings. If someone didn't use my gift, I would think about how others would have and it was wasted on them.

contradicts....
 
quote:

  They do not owe anything to me as a result of my gift giving.

Not meaning to pick on you julia - but submission isnt a selfless act.  A submissive does expect compensation.  In the other thread one of your expectations is that the domiannt will not 'break the contract'... that is an expectation of compensation of submission.  If they break it - you leave.  Both the above comments contradict each other.  You say that no one owes you for your gift giving, yet you expect to be appriciated.  It doesn't mix.
 
Peace and Rapture


_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: The gift of submission. - 8/17/2006 1:42:12 PM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

Because I have given the gift of my submission, I do not expect an even trade of something, or anything for that matter, although I have to say that I am free to take back that gift, it was still a gift while I was giving it.
 
I disagree julia...a gift isnt something you can ever take back.  If you give a gift, you should never take it back.  Christmas, birthdays... how hurtful to remove the gift you have given?
 
Submission is my gift.  I am blessed with it.  I was born with it.  I can't give it away, I cant gift it away... but I can share it.  I can open myself to another... and let them taste the fruits.  It is enjoyed then by more... like a box of chocolates... And sharing that gift makes it a much bigger thing.  But submission as a gift to another?  Never...
 
Peace and Rapture


_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: The gift of submission. - 8/17/2006 1:45:34 PM   
masterzone


Posts: 3
Joined: 1/8/2004
Status: offline 		To start off I would like to paraphrase Guy Baldwin “If your slave is not happy they will not fold your laundry, cook your eggs or suck your dick.”

There is almost no time in are life that we give a gift with out wanting something back. Even when I give a gift to a friend I want to know it makes them happy, there for I am fulfilling a selfish need in my self to make someone happy. Doing a selfless act is very rare, so let’s call a spade a spade, we are selfish people. I am not talking about us as a group but the greater “we”, the whole human kind. The sooner we as humans understand this and take the stigma off of being selfish the better we can all be. But to fool are selves into thinking what we are (Dom or sub) is a gift is really simply sad.

(in reply to HollyS)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: The gift of submission. - 8/17/2006 1:59:42 PM   
masterzone


Posts: 3
Joined: 1/8/2004
Status: offline 		To clarify something, the idea of a “the gift of” for ones self, that is to say “I feel me being a __fill in the blank___ is a gift of mine” is not the same as “me giving you my __fill in the blank__ is a gift I am giving to you”. Please understand that if you feel that this part of you is a gift that was given to you by some power or something like that, that is not what I am talking about.

be well and safe

(in reply to masterzone)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: The gift of submission. - 8/17/2006 2:11:24 PM   
Littlepita


Posts: 1430
Joined: 10/6/2005
Status: offline 		I don't like the word gift in regards to submission. I am a submissive and I choose to submit, according to what has been negotiated, to my Dom. Learning to submit myself to another has been one of the biggest challenges of my life. It's something that grows and evolves daily. It's alive, flawed, and beautiful. It's more than a gift, it's my life.

_____________________________

“I, with a deeper instinct, choose a man who compels my strength, who makes enormous demands on me, who does not doubt my courage or my toughness, who does not believe me naive or innocent, who has the courage to treat me like a woman.” – Anais Nin

(in reply to masterzone)
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RE: The gift of submission. - 8/17/2006 2:18:39 PM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

Wow, what is wrong with wanting something from a relationship??  Isn't that one of the main reasons people enter into them?


There is nothing wrong with wanting something from a relationship and I don't believe I said there was.  What I said was that wanting something from a relationship or expecting it makes your part in it NOT a gift for, as has been stated by others as well as me, a gift is something you give someone without expecting something in return.

(in reply to KatyLied)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: The gift of submission. - 8/17/2006 2:20:06 PM   
CreoleCook


Posts: 321
Joined: 10/9/2005
Status: offline 		If life is like a box of chocolates, mine sat in the sun a little too long.  As for the question at hand, Each to their own.  I personally don't see it as a gift... I look at it as a choice.  either she will be submissive to me, or not.  Shit happens...

CC

(in reply to Littlepita)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: The gift of submission. - 8/17/2006 2:30:18 PM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dnomyar

Expectations are a fact of life. We all have them.


Yes we do, even when we are giving a present to someone. We expect their gratitude, we expect them to use the gift, we expect them to value us because we gave it to them.. we expect all sorts of things when we "give" things to people. If we give a gift to a charity many of us write it off. If we donate our time we expect others to laud us for it. Just because we gift things doesn't mean there are not strings of expectation attached. If that is the definition then there are rarely gifts given in this world


You may be right julia in that there are few 'true' gifts given in the world (there's that word 'true' again).  But whether that statement is true or not, a gift is given with the intention of giving something to someone to increase their happiness with zero expectations on the part of the giver for anything at all, whether it be appreciation, words of laud, or anything else from the recipient of the gift.  That is why when I choose gifts to give my unmentionables or to a friend or to a submissive in my life, I really do try to choose something based on what I know about them and what they would like and try to look within myself to discover if my motive is selfless.  Is it nice when someone appreciates the gift?  Sure...and most people do.  And it is human nature not to experience some disappointment when the person you've given something to has been remiss in not expressing appreciation.  But that is a failing of human nature.  Or perhaps it is a failing of the definition of the word 'gift'.  Perhaps the word will one day be redefined so as to include some etiquette instruction:   "a gift is something given to someone freely without thought of compensation or expectation of gratitude on the part of the giver.  However, proper behavior dictates at least a 'thank-you' on the part of the recipient."

< Message edited by CreativeDominant -- 8/17/2006 2:41:57 PM >

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: The gift of submission. - 8/17/2006 2:50:15 PM   
missturbation


Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
Status: offline 		I don't think of giving my submission to my Sir as a gift - more an exchange. In return for my submission i get His dominance over me. All relationships are based on compromise, give and take. Nobody gives a gift without expecting anything in return even if it is just a thank you. 

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to CreativeDominant)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: The gift of submission. - 8/17/2006 3:01:08 PM   
mistresssavanna


Posts: 46
Joined: 8/15/2006
Status: offline 		This is a topic of many of the other BDSM sites and the distinction in the difference of opinion can be made by determining the individual's type of involvment in the lifestyle.

There are exceptions, but usually those who view D/s as more of a role play, on-and-off-again activity to dip into once in awhile are the ones who feel it is a gift.

Those who associate with Gorian, Old Guard and Traditional BDSM, usually do not bring up the topic of "gift" on either side.

It is a non-issue.

I have posted about this topic on other BDSM sites and have taken a tremendous amount of heat for it, so I suppose there could be some as a result of this post.  Give it your best shot.  I dare you. 

It is obvious that You are a Master of Honor and Integrity.  I am very pleased to see this level of Quality in the membership here.


Regards,

Mistress Savanna

_____________________________

President
The International Core ~Cc

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: The gift of submission. - 8/17/2006 3:08:48 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

Not meaning to pick on you julia - but submission isnt a selfless act. 
Never said it was, and I believe there is no such a thing as a selfless act... just me could be wrong

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 8/17/2006 3:53:15 PM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to darkinshadows)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: The gift of submission. - 8/17/2006 3:25:44 PM   
crouchingtigress


Posts: 4387
Joined: 3/19/2006
From: Maui
Status: offline 		i dont think you are wrong i think that is spot on.
if any one disagrees please share what you would say was a selfless act is.
 

_____________________________


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This is him

"Its none of my buisness what other people think of me."




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Profile   Post #: 72
RE: The gift of submission. - 8/17/2006 3:50:22 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: crouchingtigress

i dont think you are wrong i think that is spot on.
if any one disagrees please share what you would say was a selfless act is.
 


this slave will play.  this slave would say a self-less act is the exact opposite of a self-ish act.  expecting compensation from giving a gift isn't giving, but selling. the compensation just isn't necessarily in the form of money.
 
random example of self-less, as opposed to self-ish: donating blood while alive or usable organs after death.

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 8/17/2006 3:53:18 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 73
RE: The gift of submission. - 8/17/2006 3:55:54 PM   
missturbation


Posts: 8290
Joined: 2/12/2006
From: another planet
Status: offline 		But surely even that isnt a selfless act. Technically knowing u r helping others will make u feel better about yourself so technically not selfless.

_____________________________

What you don't witness with your eyes, don't witness with your mouth. Proverb.

If it fit's in a toaster, i can cook it.

Buying 10 item's or less is not shopping !!

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: The gift of submission. - 8/17/2006 3:56:57 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

ORIGINAL: crouchingtigress

i dont think you are wrong i think that is spot on.
if any one disagrees please share what you would say was a selfless act is.
 


this slave will play.  this slave would say a self-less act is the exact opposite of a self-ish act.  expecting compensation from giving a gift isn't giving, but selling. the compensation just isn't necessarily in the form of money.
 
random example of self-less, as opposed to self-ish: donating blood while alive or usable organs after death.


I define a selfless act as getting nothing out of an action, no sense of pride, well being, no sense of doing good in the world. Having my son was a selfish act, I had him because I wanted him, and motherhood fulfills me. I cannot think of one person I would act more selflessly than I do with my kid.

I have read those here who say that because submission fulfills them it is not a gift. It fulfills me when I buy knick knacks for my sister's home when I see them at auction, for example, and I only expect her enjoyment of the item. I expect her to enjoy it, and that fulfills me, therefore it was not selfless.

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 8/17/2006 4:04:54 PM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 75
RE: The gift of submission. - 8/17/2006 4:13:46 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania


...I define a selfless act as getting nothing out of an action, no sense of pride, well being, so sense of doing good in the world...

and that's where this slave's disagreement with you begins and ends, at the interpretation of the definition of the word.  this slave defines selfless as being concerned with others rather than oneself, the opposite of selfish.  to this slave, selfless does not equate to unfeeling robotic action, rather, shows a depth of mature character in that one is doing something for others, RATHER than doing for oneself.  for example, someone who donates a kidney to save another's life is performing a selfless act, this slave would say.  Is it void of feeling or humanity or of doing something good?

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 76
RE: The gift of submission. - 8/17/2006 4:13:46 PM   
porcelaine


Posts: 5020
Joined: 7/24/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: masterzone

Right off the bat I am going to upset some of you but this is how I feel. The gift of submission is garbage. Giving your submission and domination is a selfish act. I would love to know what others think.



I do not view submission or dominance as gifts in the sense that they are typically portrayed. What I do see as a gift of sorts is the essence of that individual that they have chosen to share with me. The reverse applies where I'm concerned. One could see the relating as self serving but I choose to think differently. Every smile, touch, sentiment expressed, quiet moment, etc. are gifts and meant to be cherished. Having someone to relate to that sincerely wishes to be in your presence and give of themselves in this capacity are the true treasures. In my eyes we are a gift unto the other.

porcelaine

_____________________________

His will; my fate.

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Profile   Post #: 77
RE: The gift of submission. - 8/17/2006 4:25:07 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania


...I define a selfless act as getting nothing out of an action, no sense of pride, well being, so sense of doing good in the world...


and that's where this slave's disagreement with you begins and ends, at the interpretation of the definition of the word.  this slave defines selfless as being concerned with others rather than oneself, the opposite of selfish.  to this slave, selfless does not equate to unfeeling robotic action, rather, shows a depth of mature character in that one is doing something for others, RATHER than doing for oneself.  for example, someone who donates a kidney to save another's life is performing a selfless act, this slave would say.  Is it void of feeling or humanity or of doing something good?


Then under your operating procedure giving one's submission is a selfless gift?

People seem to grab on to whatever is convenient to support their view of submission not being a gift. I could argue it both ways, but on a personal, intimate, and spiritual level I feel it is a gift. I cannot explain my illogical feeling that it is or isn't a gift, it is just how I feel about it... I refer you to my first post on this thread

quote:

I do not think it matters what others think, probably most will agree with you, but some will not, including myself.. we all have our own view of life, love, submission, and dominance.. it really only matters that we are happy with ourselves and secure with our own views


I was saying that the OP did not feel it was a gift, and I do feel it is one.

People on here have been saying if you get any sort of fulfillment or joy or have an expectation associated with giving submission then it is an exchange and not a gift. I do not agree. That is not how I feel about the word gift. If you define submission as a selfish act, then it is not a gift to some, but then I argued then there are no selfless acts, and then I am told that is wrong...smiles.

It is all in how you chose to view it, and I could sit and argue about the definition of a selfish or selfless act, or if submission is selfless or selfish.. it is really all up to the individual as I said in my quote above. Like I said, Sinergy doesn't think it is a gift either, and I do not care, Im just happy giving what I do to him...the rest is just gravy

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 8/17/2006 4:27:09 PM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: The gift of submission. - 8/17/2006 5:30:43 PM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		[/quote]

Then under your operating procedure giving one's submission is a selfless gift?

[/quote]

could be...but we probably wouldn't agree on the definition of "submission", either, since we don't agree on the definitions of "selfless" or "gift"...or do you think we could find an impartial dictionary that would allow for it?

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 79
RE: The gift of submission. - 8/17/2006 8:43:40 PM   
bigdaninwi


Posts: 35
Joined: 5/31/2005
Status: offline 		juliaoceania - nods in agreement..the vow that I published is the typical vows used in marriage.  What struck me as interesting is the long held tenet of "taking" the person as juxtiposed from the bdsm donation of a gift.  Certainly vows of all sorts can be changed.  However, I was stuck by how aggressive the traditonal form of the vow appears.  Especially in the light of very vanilla traditional marriage vows.  The juxapostion being that traditional Wedding vows don't even recognize the "gift" of one's self to another. 

Moreover, juliaoceania, I was just commenting to my girl how much I enjoy and agree with many of your posts.  I enjoy the breath and depth of your discussions.  Many Thanks for tagging on.

please call Bigdan..

< Message edited by bigdaninwi -- 8/17/2006 8:44:57 PM >

_____________________________

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Nietzche

"On the Genealogy of Morals."

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 80
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