RE: The Bible and Common Sense

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meatcleaver -> RE: The Bible and Common Sense (8/20/2006 4:20:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent By saying you can't be gay and a member of their institution what example are they setting for their congregation? Helping to build a progressive society? Religion is about a belief in a truth and any instruction on how to live that resembles any instruction on human rights is incidental. It has nothing to do with building a 'progressive society' (which is subjective in the extreme), that is politics and not religion.

SavageFaerie -> RE: The Bible and Common Sense (8/20/2006 4:26:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent By saying you can't be gay and a member of their institution what example are they setting for their congregation? Helping to build a progressive society? NorthernGent They are setting up examples according to "their" society aka church. Sure people are going to join their society, but many will refuse to adhear themselves to said society. The gay people do in fact have their own churches or belong to churches that will not look down on them. Unfortunatly many different religions and churches do not adher to the gay way of thinking. Like I heard quoted previously: quote: You don't like the rules of the club, start you own club.

NorthernGent -> RE: The Bible and Common Sense (8/20/2006 4:33:05 PM)
Hmmm, saying if you don't like a club join another is all well and good but the fact remains excluding people from the main church based on their sexual persuasion is not progressive. Yes, in theory, a new church could be formed but it doesn't change the stance and implications of the stance taken by the main church. I don't doubt there are vast numbers in the Anglican Church who are inclusive (as I said in my post the church was split down the middle). My point was that when push comes to shove the church is more concerned with the institution rather than the Christian values of charity, fairness, equality that the institution was set up to represent. Regards

meatcleaver -> RE: The Bible and Common Sense (8/20/2006 4:43:36 PM)
The church was set up to proffer truth as it sees it, not to be all things to all men. You believe and adhere to its creed or you don't. It is not about social work or politics.

NorthernGent -> RE: The Bible and Common Sense (8/20/2006 4:48:48 PM)
Really? well, as the church represents Christianity does it not also represent Christian values?

meatcleaver -> RE: The Bible and Common Sense (8/20/2006 4:56:49 PM)
A Christian church represents Christian values as it sees them, whatever they are, which are many and varied depending on the church. However, the main purpose of a church is to save souls, which is about self sacrifice and aesthetic living, not about saving life or to make life comfortable. It's business is the here after, not the here and now which is for politics to sort out. You may intepret christian values as you see them, someone else my intepret them in a completely different way. The church is there to uphold its creed. I think you are mistaking humanitarianism with religion. The two are completely different beliefs.

NorthernGent -> RE: The Bible and Common Sense (8/20/2006 5:04:22 PM)
Ok, so we're agreed the church represents Christian values. If you asked your local vicar/priest if they (and the church they belong to) value charity, fairness and empathy what do you think the answer would be?

mnottertail -> RE: The Bible and Common Sense (8/20/2006 5:10:32 PM)
They will say yes, and that all fall short of the glory of god.........the papacy has many years on you pal.......don't come in with reasonable questions and expect that there is a reasonable answer, they have been apologists for every logical flaw since christ was a corporal. They got smooth answers, uplifting, but hardly concrete. Ron

BrutalAntipathy -> RE: The Bible and Common Sense (8/20/2006 5:15:27 PM)
Odd that it is being said that churches value truth as they see and interprit it. Since all Christian churches are following the same god and rule book, why are their beliefs not exactly the same? One god, one Bible, one religion? And yet it is the opposite that we see. Multiple religions, and hundreds on nondenominational splinters, each with their own interpritation of what the Bible ' really ' says. How is it that an omnipotent being can hand down a guideline for living that is written with such an utter lack of clarity that it can be interprited in many, often contradictory, ways?

NorthernGent -> RE: The Bible and Common Sense (8/20/2006 5:21:54 PM)
Personally, I'm struggling to get to grips with the notion that there are not consistent values that Christianity is suposed to reflect and represent. Aren't the 10 commandments founded on these values?

WhiplashGirlChld -> RE: The Bible and Common Sense (8/20/2006 5:30:36 PM)
No one sect, let a lone specific church, represents the totality of Christian values - no more so than one profile on Collarme represents the totality of BDSM enthusiasts. Please know that not ALL Christians feel well represented by the current ultra-conservative evangelicals who seem to have a monopoly in the American media landscape.

SavageFaerie -> RE: The Bible and Common Sense (8/20/2006 5:34:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent I don't doubt there are vast numbers in the Anglican Church who are inclusive (as I said in my post the church was split down the middle). My point was that when push comes to shove the church is more concerned with the institution rather than the Christian values of charity, fairness, equality that the institution was set up to represent. Regards And this is precisly why I preferred to not get into the discussion of Catholic and or Anglican churches and hell most churches for that matter. Catholic churches for one in my opinion are all about the money, riches and power. Be damned the souls that belong to it. ( having said that I will get my flame proof suit on I just got in the cybermail) Mega Christianized churches are the same way. Its all about the same thing. I call those God Malls. Kenneth Copeland Ministries.....now here is one for you. I lived within 3 miles of that joint. Private airstrip and all. Wanna know something. Their huge mega church has maybe 2 dozen cars in front of it on Sunday morning. I know I have driven by there. But let me tell you what when you drive by that place and stop......their security is on you like a rapid dog. I hear of tales from people that worked there locally. The word drug running comes to mind here. So hell yes, it is ultimately in the end about most, and I do stress most, churches main concern is about their institution.

Dauric -> RE: The Bible and Common Sense (8/20/2006 6:01:20 PM)
Back in my college days I took a philosophy class that got in to matters of ethics, specifically "Bureaucratic Ethics" (It was a commercial art college, so the gen-ed classes tended to be rather specific.) Bureaucratic Ethics as no relation ot what I would term "Human Ethics". If you don't get caught it wasn't a bad thing. If you can shovel the blame somewhere else, you didn't do anything wrong. It's completely acceptable to take credit for your underling's successes and blame them for your failures. ...And that's just the bit about taking responsibility. Any large church will be corrupted by Burarucratic Ethics, it happens to any organization when it becomes large enough that it has to deal with individuals as numbers. The Catholic child-abuse scandal is a stunning example of the Catholic church being corrupted by Bureaucratic Ethics. I don't have a problem with "disorganized" Christians. They're independent thinkers who use te bible as a guidepost for their own lives. Their bible doesn't suit me, but if it works for them, more power to'em. It's the "Organized" ones of any religion that get under my skin. They need more converts to increase their numbers for the balance sheet. How do you know they're "Good Christians"? By evaluating them with a true/false test. Just my $0.02, Dauric.

SavageFaerie -> RE: The Bible and Common Sense (8/20/2006 6:23:40 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Dauric I don't have a problem with "disorganized" Christians. They're independent thinkers who use the bible as a guidepost for their own lives. Their bible doesn't suit me, but if it works for them, more power to'em. It's the "Organized" ones of any religion that get under my skin. They need more converts to increase their numbers for the balance sheet. How do you know they're "Good Christians"? By evaluating them with a true/false test. Well said Dauric. I often wonder if I am a 'bad' Christian. I did find a quaint evangelical and charismatic church that I was rather fond of, the problem I had was the rigid evangelical part, I just flat could not get myself to adhere to that aspect of it, I ended up moving and have only visited a church or two since. This is not because of my agoraphobic tendencies either, as I can get out at times. I will also state I have never read the bible from start to finish, the bloody thing bores me to pieces. By the time people are done begetting my mind goes off into something else.

sleazybutterfly -> RE: The Bible and Common Sense (8/20/2006 8:59:14 PM)
I haven't really read very many of the posts, I didn't want what I said to be aimed at other posts or somehow "jaded". If I repeat anyone else, this is why. I was raised in church, American Baptist to be exact. My whole family is (was) involved, be it Deacons, Choir, Sunday school teacher, etc... I was always pretty much taught, the Bible says what it says, don't question it, just accept it with Faith. Now, after coming out of the closet twice (bisexual, bdsm), I don't affiliate myself with a certain organized Christian religion. Does that make me less of one? No, it doesn't. The Bible is very important to me. It's a place I can go and read words of comfort, words that help in my faith, thru bad times, sorrow, and can help renew me a bit. I know that it has been tainted my man over the years, I know that certain books were even left out, I also am very aware that people can take many things in it and twist them for the cause they are promoting. This is where so much prejudice against Christians comes from. People think if you are one, that you automatically agree with every other Christian out there about everything. I have looked into many forms of faith, from Buddhism, Mormonism, Church of Novis Spiritus, Pagans..etc.. The thing is, I always come back to my faith, my Christian one. I learn and take certain things from others ..but Christ is always at the core of my beliefs. I know that many people think of Faith as a crutch. If that is what you want to think, that is fine. I have to say.. I can't imagine facing a day on this earth without knowing there was Something greater than I was in charge of it all. We aren't all Pat Robertson followers, a good portion of us search our hearts, research, and make our own choices. I know I am not a perfect Christian, I don't claim to be. I know that many say that I will not go to Heaven, or that God doesn't love me because of the way I am. I know that the only times I have felt apart from God, were times that I caused. I did this by pulling away, running away, closing my heart off. Those reasons were because I listened to everyone telling me I wasn't cared about anymore, and I started to believe them. So, He never left me, I just quit listening. I think I get most frustrated, because love is talked about the Bible much more than hate..but it seems that is what people take from it so much anymore. Jesus was very loving, he didn't shun, he didn't judge, he loved, he welcomed, he healed. I think if Churches taught more of that, more of the "real" Jesus, that more people would look to their (my) faith for love and acceptance. I guess for some people, it just makes them feel higher, better about themselves to judge others. If they can see something someone else does as wrong, then they can ignore the things that are wrong in their lives. I have learned not to judge, if I catch myself, I will be the first to put a stop to it. We are all human... we all love.. we all need love.. we make mistakes..we need forgiveness. I think the Bible is more of a guide, a tool, a place to find and learn teachings, about the faith..etc. Some things can be taken exactly the way they are, others are more symbolically written. The danger is when people pick it apart, make things that aren't really there, or use it as and excuse to dismiss or hate a whole group of people. ~Andrea

GeekFreak -> RE: The Bible and Common Sense (8/20/2006 9:25:11 PM)
Well this looks like it would have been quite an interesting discussion, had I caught it at the beginning. I think there's been too much said here for me to try and jump in now, though. :) I hope I catch the next one. I always like feeling outnumbered...makes the debate more entertaining. ;)

MistressLorelei -> RE: The Bible and Common Sense (8/20/2006 9:30:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GeekFreak Well this looks like it would have been quite an interesting discussion, had I caught it at the beginning. I think there's been too much said here for me to try and jump in now, though. :) I hope I catch the next one. I always like feeling outnumbered...makes the debate more entertaining. ;) Well, you jumped in anyway... may as well say something....

GeekFreak -> RE: The Bible and Common Sense (8/20/2006 9:34:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MistressLorelei quote: ORIGINAL: GeekFreak Well this looks like it would have been quite an interesting discussion, had I caught it at the beginning. I think there's been too much said here for me to try and jump in now, though. :) I hope I catch the next one. I always like feeling outnumbered...makes the debate more entertaining. ;) Well, you jumped in anyway... may as well say something.... Okay... If I was a Bible, I'd be the King James Bible...'cause then I'd feel all regal and stuff...like a Knight...or something. (How's that?) ^_^

MistressLorelei -> RE: The Bible and Common Sense (8/20/2006 9:49:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GeekFreak quote: ORIGINAL: MistressLorelei quote: ORIGINAL: GeekFreak Well this looks like it would have been quite an interesting discussion, had I caught it at the beginning. I think there's been too much said here for me to try and jump in now, though. :) I hope I catch the next one. I always like feeling outnumbered...makes the debate more entertaining. ;) Well, you jumped in anyway... may as well say something.... Okay... If I was a Bible, I'd be the King James Bible...'cause then I'd feel all regal and stuff...like a Knight...or something. (How's that?) ^_^ lol well, maybe you were right to begin with. <smiles>

NorthernGent -> RE: The Bible and Common Sense (8/20/2006 11:15:42 PM)
Whiplash, What do you mean by values? No offence intended here but I'm not talking a set of detailed rules and scriptures, more a set of core values that underpin Christianity. I think you could ask any Christian minister if their church is founded on charity, empathy and fairness and they would say yes. My underestanding is these are the core values that lay the foundations for the 10 commandments. I certainly wasn't criticising anyone's religious preference. My criticism was of the church as an institution because recent events have shown that when push comes to shove the Anglican Church can't show the charity it is supposed to have in abundance. Regards I

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