quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
I would also like to direct you to this thread, which is the most recent example of safeword failure involving newbies that I have presented here on the boards.

http://www.collarchat.com/m_501517/mpage_1/key_safewords/tm.htm#501573

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

It is not something that I speak just to hear myself.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SirMichealspeach

This may be backwards for some of you but i am finding the need for a safe word more now that i have more experience. In the beginning of Master and my's relationship He  gave me a safe word to use. i have never used it but once until recently. As my tolerance level grows and my trust for Him and His ability it seems He has become very fond of pushing my limits.
I belive in the beginning He was easier on me, using floggers and paddles and stuff He knew i enjoyed .. this built my trust and eased my nerves thus no need for safe word ..
Now however, We have expanded into some extreme play with whips, Bondage, Fire play, Breath Play ect...
Don't get  me wrong i do not "code" everytime we play these days  because He does know me and is able to read my body language quite well. But somedays i am more tired or still sore from a previous scene and cannot tolerate as much.
Sorry for the  long reply.
it just stuck me  weird that most get to a point  where a safe word is never needed .. i wonder how many go through this growing stage where the  intensity is taken up a notch or two and find themselves need one more
Sir Micheals peach

quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo
There of course is some risk in mountain climbing, but I cant see there being any risk in choosing to agree on NOT having an indication that MIGHT help save you.  In fact, other than in the bdsm forum I have never seen, heard or imagined  any situation anywhere, on any planet, in any lifetime where people say to each other....ya know what honey, before we do this semi risky venture, (mountian climbing, deep sea diving, scening, driving a car, whatever)  lets agree that we have NO "indication" set up if one of us feels we are in jeopardy. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: ready3learn

I am pretty new to the community...and am now just getting up the courage to participate in the discussion. I know this seems pretty silly but...anyway. This seems like a good topic for my first question...I have often thought about it.

In my limited experience I have never found it necessary to actually enact a safeword (by enact, I mean when I have been provided with one, I have never actually used it). I have never wanted to use one, but I understand, especially at the beginning of a relationship, it's important.

However, over time is it commonplace to scale back or completely eliminate the use of safewords as the relationship develops? As trust increases, I would think that the submissive should develop a trust with the Dominant to respect limits that may have been uncovered throughout the course of building the relationship. At the same time, in a synergistic relationship, I would guess the Dominant has some "feel" or ability to recognize when things are getting pushed too far.

I have never been far enough down that road to find out, but I am curious to hear from those who have.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Reposted:
...True to my previous words, here is a story by Ownedgirlie which is the epitome of how ACTUAL communication works in ACTUAL scenes:
No safeword here.  Once I thought my ankle was about to break and I shrieked  "ANKLE!!!" because really the only thing going on in my head at that very second was ANKLE!!! and he pulled back so that my ankle didn't break after all and we kept going...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunshine119

In the two years, I've been with my Dominant, we have never used safewords. Why? Because he can read me like a book and I totally trust him with my body. However, now that this time has elapsed, we are talking about doing more kinds of edge play and he said he didn't want to go into this territory without a clear understanding that I had to make clear to him if I was feeling things were going too far.

Now, once again, this comes down to communication. We talked about a safe-WORD but I have always felt this was artificial and, in someway, put the power in my hands. I admit that this may be a bizzare way of looking at this issue but as soon as one says "RED" and all play immediately stops, who has the power? He is mildly worried that I might not be in a state to have a "discussion" with him regarding my state of being and one word would convey to him my distress.

We agreed on three words: "Please stop Sir".....lol In my mind, that is a request. In his mind, it will convey my distress clearly.

Sunshine

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo
There of course is some risk in mountain climbing, but I cant see there being any risk in choosing to agree on NOT having an indication that MIGHT help save you.  In fact, other than in the bdsm forum I have never seen, heard or imagined  any situation anywhere, on any planet, in any lifetime where people say to each other....ya know what honey, before we do this semi risky venture, (mountian climbing, deep sea diving, scening, driving a car, whatever)  lets agree that we have NO "indication" set up if one of us feels we are in jeopardy. 

quote:

I've never seen anyone suggest there should not be clear, direct, open communication.

In my view, suggesting that a safeword, which IS a clear, direct form of open communication be non-existant, or whatever indication one chooses to use, (napkin in hand or whatever) is the same as being against "clear direct open communication.  What could be more clear, open and direct than a single word that two people agree upon?   "Hey listen Master if I say the word LUCKY at any time during our scene, it means stop".  This isnt clear and concise??  

quote:

I think we all agree that there should be clear, direct, open communication- in scenes or in anything else.

Im not so sure I gleen the same message from this thread or bdsmers in general, that there should be clear direct anything during a scene.  Maybe some people indicated that here, but not all.  Do you think that you should be speaking for everyone, when you say "we all"? 

quote:

We just disagree on whether a safeword is clear, direct and open and therefore whether it is useful for its supposed purpose.  Most of the time, it's none of those,

Again, you not only decide and state what everyone exactly disagrees on.  But you actually say "Most of the time", speaking for the 99.99% of people who scene, who arent even a part of this conversations.  "Most of the time"  in whose world??  Are you around when most people who employ the use of safewords,  scene?  Are you there to know that for "most people" its not a clear way to communicate? 

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hotch

The intended purpose of a safeword is akin to a fire alarm.  "Everyone stop what you are doing and proceed in an orderly fashion to the nearest exit."  I've never had to use a fire alarm, have you?  It's nice to have them around though.   It's a way to draw immediate attention to something that was unintended and has gone wrong.  Will the dominant pick up on a crisis?  Probably (If you're careful about who you play with), but possibly not as fast as if you signal your distress.  If you say "STOP!" or "ANKLE!" or whatever, and your dom knows what you mean, then you used a safeword.  "Safeword" is, or should be, the concept of being able to signal trouble and be understood immediately. 

quote:

Are you there to know that for "most people" its not a clear way to communicate? 

quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo
I cant understand anyone viewing a simple safety precaution as a potential danger.  To me its like saying,  I dont ever want to own a fire extinguisher because it may not work if I ever need to use it and its only going to give me a false sense of security. 

quote:

For the sake of debate, Im going to replace the word "safeword" with the word "indication".

Im going to remove the context of said '"indication" from bdsm scening, and apply it to something else.

What if you and your spouse were mountain climbers ....and you were on the side of a mountian, half way up and said, "Honey I have to stop and rest because of the lack of oxygen up here, I feel faint".....and he said...."Sure babe, and from now on if you ever feel that way again just say the word "Faint" and thats your "indication"  to me to let me know that we have to stop climbing.   Can you imagine finishing that climb, being safe on the ground,  and then having a discussion with your partner in which you both agree that you should never use the word "faint" to indicate that you feel like youre going to pass out on that mountain? 

quote:

There of course is some risk in mountain climbing, but I cant see there being any risk in choosing to agree on NOT having an indication that MIGHT help save you.  In fact, other than in the bdsm forum I have never seen, heard or imagined  any situation anywhere, on any planet, in any lifetime where people say to each other....ya know what honey, before we do this semi risky venture, (mountian climbing, deep sea diving, scening, driving a car, whatever)  lets agree that we have NO "indication" set up if one of us feels we are in jeopardy. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

Are you there to know that for "most people" its not a clear way to communicate? 

I'm such a cheeky arrogant wench, aren't I? :)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo
I cant understand anyone viewing a simple safety precaution as a potential danger.  To me its like saying,  I dont ever want to own a fire extinguisher because it may not work if I ever need to use it and its only going to give me a false sense of security. 

On another thread someone else used a fire analogy...this was my response:
You can be sitting there lighting sparklers in your living room and think you're ok because you see that extinguisher over there hanging on the wall. All of a sudden the room is on fire but you don't panic until you reach for that extinguisher and find it empty.

quote:

For the sake of debate, Im going to replace the word "safeword" with the word "indication".

Im going to remove the context of said '"indication" from bdsm scening, and apply it to something else.

What if you and your spouse were mountain climbers ....and you were on the side of a mountian, half way up and said, "Honey I have to stop and rest because of the lack of oxygen up here, I feel faint".....and he said...."Sure babe, and from now on if you ever feel that way again just say the word "Faint" and thats your "indication"  to me to let me know that we have to stop climbing.   Can you imagine finishing that climb, being safe on the ground,  and then having a discussion with your partner in which you both agree that you should never use the word "faint" to indicate that you feel like youre going to pass out on that mountain? 

I'm not saying you shouldn't use the word faint...I'm saying that you should do exactly that. Faint is concise communication. If the same couple were mountain climbing and the woman felt faint and yelled "red", her climbing partner would have no indication of WHAT was wrong...be it faint, nauseous, sprained ankle, panic attack, etc., etc...

Clear and concise communication can make a difference in response as is indicated by this example that I used in another thread: 


About 5 years ago I was at a party and I wasn't really paying much attention to the scene that was going on in the corner. Suddenly the submissive on the cross started frantically screaming red.....just as she'd been told to and conditioned to do. That part was great, the scene stopped immediately and those attending raced to get her down. The problem was that she didn't stop screaming red. Everyone rushed to her aid and no one could determine what the problem was. This went on for a full 5 minutes at least with a crowd of people now trying to help. It was a complete and utter clusterfuck. The problem, as it turned out, was that she was writhing so hard that she ruptured a disc in her back. Now here are all these people turning her all different ways trying to find an injury. She did what she was conditioned to do and in her moment of agony and crisis she could not see clear to stop saying red long enough to help the helpers. She could have indeed been further injured by their efforts. All of it could have been avoided had she screamed OMG my back, my back...somethings's wrong.

quote:

There of course is some risk in mountain climbing, but I cant see there being any risk in choosing to agree on NOT having an indication that MIGHT help save you.  In fact, other than in the bdsm forum I have never seen, heard or imagined  any situation anywhere, on any planet, in any lifetime where people say to each other....ya know what honey, before we do this semi risky venture, (mountian climbing, deep sea diving, scening, driving a car, whatever)  lets agree that we have NO "indication" set up if one of us feels we are in jeopardy. 

Again, I'm not saying there should be no indication set up...what I am saying is that what should be set up is that the parties will use concise communication as opposed to unrelated magical code words.

I've been having this discussion for a long time now and still, no one has ever been able to provide me one single example of an instance where a made-up safeword would have been superior to simple honest and concise communication.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sunshine119

In the two years, I've been with my Dominant, we have never used safewords. Why? Because he can read me like a book and I totally trust him with my body. However, now that this time has elapsed, we are talking about doing more kinds of edge play and he said he didn't want to go into this territory without a clear understanding that I had to make clear to him if I was feeling things were going too far.

Now, once again, this comes down to communication. We talked about a safe-WORD but I have always felt this was artificial and, in someway, put the power in my hands. I admit that this may be a bizzare way of looking at this issue but as soon as one says "RED" and all play immediately stops, who has the power? He is mildly worried that I might not be in a state to have a "discussion" with him regarding my state of being and one word would convey to him my distress.

We agreed on three words: "Please stop Sir".....lol In my mind, that is a request. In his mind, it will convey my distress clearly.

Sunshine

If that works for you, that's wonderful.

Some people want to play with words like "stop" or "don't" or "please" or begging but these are ignored by their partner. Rather than risk confusion, those people might chose to use a safeword like "badger" or "bubble" or something else that can't be confused with playing with words.

But if Fox said "please stop mistress" to me, I'd just smile, say "you can take more" and keep going. We want to be able to play with these words.

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

What if she can't remember the safe word?
"RED!  No,...GREEN!,...shit! YELLOW?  CHARTREUSE!!!?"
"MAUVE!!!"

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hotch

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Reposted:
...True to my previous words, here is a story by Ownedgirlie which is the epitome of how ACTUAL communication works in ACTUAL scenes:
No safeword here.  Once I thought my ankle was about to break and I shrieked  "ANKLE!!!" because really the only thing going on in my head at that very second was ANKLE!!! and he pulled back so that my ankle didn't break after all and we kept going...

 


I think LuckyAlbatross nailed it.  People get hung up on "safewords"  Some don't even use them correctly.  If you "code out" of every scene, then in reality you are just Topping from the bottom... You're dictating the pace and direction of the scene if you're going "green"... Yellow!... "RED!".  The intended purpose of a safeword is akin to a fire alarm.  "Everyone stop what you are doing and proceed in an orderly fashion to the nearest exit."  I've never had to use a fire alarm, have you?  It's nice to have them around though.   It's a way to draw immediate attention to something that was unintended and has gone wrong.  Will the dominant pick up on a crisis?  Probably (If you're careful about who you play with), but possibly not as fast as if you signal your distress.  If you say "STOP!" or "ANKLE!" or whatever, and your dom knows what you mean, then you used a safeword.  "Safeword" is, or should be, the concept of being able to signal trouble and be understood immediately.  I disagree with those who think they can rely souly on "reading" the bottom, even though it is the dom's responsibility to monitor and understand what is happening, having a way to signal trouble is only common sense.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

Since I was quoted here, I will reply to it.   I cried "ANKLE!" because my ankle was hurting badly and I was worried it would break.  This did not mean "STOP."  It was an indication to Master that I thought my ankle might be injured.  It was up to him to stop if he decided to.  In this particular case, he did not "stop what he was doing and proceed in an orderly fashion to the nearest exit."  He adjusted our position and continued, and I stopped crying ""ANKLE!" because my ankle was no longer in danger.

What I'm trying to say is, he could have chosen to break it (although he typically does not want his property injured).  I did not consider it a safe word.