RE: Do slaves have the right to say no?

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RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? - 9/3/2006 12:56:25 AM

Mavis

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Homestead

I cover this quite adequately with my rule number one.

"protect the property, even if it is from me."

Amen. There are times when meeting Masters desires enter a conflict, is the desire for anal now, now,now,no lube, higher than the overall desire for her service later?

Maybe girl could point out to Him that anal tearing can cause septic shock if fecal matter enters the bloodstream. The infection can be deadly. This isn't an arbritrary "owie, i don't like it" issue, it's a very real Harm issue.

i pretty much think you've decided to NOT vote with your feet, but to stay. If so, i hope Y/you have discussed the scenario and come to terms with how to deal with issues of protecting yourself for His service.

(in reply to Homestead)

RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? - 9/3/2006 1:10:16 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yourkajira

In certain cases.

for example, you have a slave and you are interested in anal sex. you are not interested in lube, or whatever, and when you do (she obediently complies) the girl who has such a high pain tolerence begs you stop, because it hurts too much.Now, this is a girl who has been raped (on several different occurances) in the past and you know this. Do you tell her basically that she has no right to deny you something that you want, and do it anyway, especially if you are...um...well endowed and don't take it easy. So, do you stop or tell her to shut up?

Seems like a what-if that you're in the middle of. I'm going to be harsh and say that one, the dominant is an asshole for subjecting someone with prior trauma to this sort of no-win situation, AND the slave is an ass for not walking away from this situation.

You ALWAYS have a choice.

_____________________________

Pandora
Ms World Leather 2004
Ms Philadelphia Leather 2004

"Simply put, if you want a real femdom to love you, give her reasons to love you." Gloria Brame

(in reply to Yourkajira)

RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? - 9/3/2006 1:18:49 AM

FelinePersuasion

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yes, but she did not say subs, she said slaves, there is a huge diffrence between subs and slaves.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DivinityWitheld

Always, the real control of a relationship is in the subs, the sub draws the line, the sub normaly is allowing the dominant freedom, the only check to the freedom is the slaves word.

(in reply to DivinityWitheld)

RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? - 9/3/2006 2:20:33 AM

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I agee with what amayos said. The term slave seems, at times, to have such myriad definitions for different people that debating this question is useless unless its meaning is first defined. I was wondering when someone would bring this up, because I think it's a extremely relevant point.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 9/3/2006 2:21:57 AM >

_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to FelinePersuasion)

RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? - 9/3/2006 4:04:44 AM

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Everyone has the right to express "No"

However, it's my right to either abide by it, ignore it, or accept the request but only after the slave takes the consiquinces for it. After all, almost every "NO!" leads to an alternitive.

_____________________________

I'm Godzilla and you're Japan

(in reply to Yourkajira)

RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? - 9/3/2006 7:55:42 AM

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I love the new avatar Amayos!

I am not a slave, I would never use that term to describe myself, because in my opinion it is not something that can be attained by me under the current laws of this country. It doesn't make sense to me, although I can see a big difference in some that call themselves slave and me.. it is a big difference, and one which is hard to define. I know it exists inside of them, but I just do not exist the same way.

I will say this, if you take the life of your property in a place with literal slavery, you have done no wrong. If you do that in the USA you have committed a crime and you will go to jail. If you beat someone so severely that you leave broken bones and hospitalize them, you will also be arrested (in my state they would prosecute you even if the slave refused to testify). There are limits imposed upon you, even if they are from the outside of your relationship.

If you mistreat a slave in a way they find torturous and bad for them, they can leave, and you cannot go to the authorities and tell them to give back the slave. The only thing holding the slave is an internal mindset, which could change at anytime, and I am sure there has been more than one slave that has left a hurtful and cruel master. Even a dog will run away if you mistreat it enough. So if we want to compare humans with animals.. animals have a sense of self preservation, I do not see why a slave would not.

I am basically in agreement with you, people often call themselves slaves while having their own best interest at heart. It is part of the reason I would never call myself that, because of the connotation. I love being submissive, but I will always consider preserving my life and my health over the desire to use me anally without lube for example "just because he can" kind of mentality.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to amayos)

RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? - 9/3/2006 8:02:51 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yourkajira
i have always been a nolimits slave. i was always of the opinion that i would never be made to do something that was harmful for me in a way that i would want to stop. i dont even have a safeword. i have never wanted to say no. but i did here.

would that say something? or would it seem just stupid, or disobedient

It looks like you just found a limit.

Everyone has them - even "no limits slaves". Those who can consider themselves "no limits" simply haven't found theirs - or are in relationships with people whose limits suit theirs enough that they'd never come up against them.

But that is best figured out at the *beginning* of a relationship, as best you can.

(in reply to Yourkajira)

RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? - 9/3/2006 8:04:11 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Slaves have no rights. If you have rights, you're not a slave.

But this is *consensual* slavery - thus, everyone has rights.

Though I agree that in the most absolute consensual slavery relationships, the only way to *exercise* those rights is to withdraw that consent and end the relationship.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? - 9/3/2006 8:05:36 AM

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leaving is a right.

(in reply to ImpGrrl)

RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? - 9/3/2006 8:47:56 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MadameEMasterM

A slave is like a car.

I love all of these comparisons.

The thing is - a slave *isn't* a car, or a dog, or a TV - they're a person. And not like a child - they're (presumably) adults.

And overall, they need to be treated like it.

A person with much less authority in the relationship (generally none), granted. And a person with far fewer "rights" within the relationship, absolutely.

But I just laugh at the "a slave is like a car (dog, cat, TV, child)" comparisons.

(in reply to MadameEMasterM)

RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? - 9/3/2006 8:53:22 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Homestead

leaving is a right.

Yes - and one that can be *ignored* by the slave, but never actually "given up".

(in reply to Homestead)

RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? - 9/3/2006 9:27:39 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I love the new avatar Amayos!

I am not a slave, I would never use that term to describe myself, because in my opinion it is not something that can be attained by me under the current laws of this country. It doesn't make sense to me, although I can see a big difference in some that call themselves slave and me.. it is a big difference, and one which is hard to define. I know it exists inside of them, but I just do not exist the same way.

I will say this, if you take the life of your property in a place with literal slavery, you have done no wrong. If you do that in the USA you have committed a crime and you will go to jail. If you beat someone so severely that you leave broken bones and hospitalize them, you will also be arrested (in my state they would prosecute you even if the slave refused to testify). There are limits imposed upon you, even if they are from the outside of your relationship.

If you mistreat a slave in a way they find torturous and bad for them, they can leave, and you cannot go to the authorities and tell them to give back the slave. The only thing holding the slave is an internal mindset, which could change at anytime, and I am sure there has been more than one slave that has left a hurtful and cruel master. Even a dog will run away if you mistreat it enough. So if we want to compare humans with animals.. animals have a sense of self preservation, I do not see why a slave would not.

I am basically in agreement with you, people often call themselves slaves while having their own best interest at heart. It is part of the reason I would never call myself that, because of the connotation. I love being submissive, but I will always consider preserving my life and my health over the desire to use me anally without lube for example "just because he can" kind of mentality.

Slavery in the D/s concept is a mental state.

There are slaves who would say they are so mentally/emotionally bound, they could not leave unless thrown out. So when others say "leave whenever you want," this is not something they relate to.

There are slaves who would find it amusing and/or offensive that anyone else would assume what their limits are. They would gladly give up their lives for their Masters, without a second thought.

There are slaves who see lubricant for anal sex as a luxury, and are grateful when allowed it.

There are slavess who thrive on that "just because he can" mentality, and who are grateful to belong to someone with that view.

It is good that you clarified that all the statements in your previous post were your in relation to your own submission, rather than a universal concept for all. I personally could not bring myself to respond to it, as it was quite far off the mark for me.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? - 9/3/2006 9:32:53 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I love the new avatar Amayos!

Thanks, Julia. I had to change it up. The whole upside down cross thing was getting old.

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
I am not a slave, I would never use that term to describe myself, because in my opinion it is not something that can be attained by me under the current laws of this country. It doesn't make sense to me, although I can see a big difference in some that call themselves slave and me.. it is a big difference, and one which is hard to define. I know it exists inside of them, but I just do not exist the same way.

What I deeply admire about your above answer is how you evidence realization of the definition of slavery beyond legal terms, and choose to not embrace it. I wish more people had the wisdom you display here, rather than just taking on the term because it sounds more romantic.

While you have a good point regarding law vs. slavery, I would likewise point out there are many instances where law does not a good slave make. People in the old world who only used the umbrella of law to enforce and acquire slaves, ironically, found many of those slaves to be of poor and even detrimental quality. This can be said of all societal instances, leading up from the empire of Rome to slavery in America. Law alone does not define or ever truly will define slavery, as it is not the most critical element. Some who solely bought into this idea didn't wake up one morning.

What is more crucial is that process you touched upon lightly: actualization, full internal identification, and the process of well applied capture bonding from the owner and his or her continued reinforcement upon the slave's condition. It is human understanding and the taking of the mind that is most crucial. Many may see this as psychological hocus pocus, but I can assure you invisible chains hold just as strong as physical ones, if crafted correctly—and they have greater advantages, too. I'm sure it doesn't take too much to see fleeting portions of this beast in every day human society, when you start to think about it. Love, guilt, capture, affection, consequence, fear and desire are words from a language of limited gamut which only partially begin to touch upon these processes humming right underneath the floorboards of another's mind.

It is critical for others to understand these processes and willingly seek to embrace them with another before entering that gateway of slavery—otherwise, you are simply making trouble for yourself and the one who seeks to own you. And of course this does not apply only to would-be slaves. Would-be owners need to reflect just as deeply upon this as well, just as much as they need to reflect upon the limitations their surrounding environment and society imposes (which is quite different, depending upon your location and status in the world). If these ideas are kept in mind, one will see a standard that is portable wherever you may abide, be it the deepest parts of the Middle East or downtown L.A.

< Message edited by amayos -- 9/3/2006 9:44:37 AM >

(in reply to juliaoceania)

RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? - 9/3/2006 10:05:04 AM

MistressMelissa

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Adelphus

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressMelissa
Why does the girl bitch now that she is treated this way?

I think that's rather harsh to say.
It sounds like she accepts the lifestyle but has come across an unforseen and terrifying aspect of it. I don't feel she should be chastised for wanting to seek answers for something that could have a potentially devastating effect. There are grave consequences when someone becomes emotionally unbalanced, possibly leading to suicide. Rape by itself has the ability to do that to many people without adding this dimension to it. The girl must be in a bad way if she's speaking up, it may even be survival instinct at this point, we don't know.
Just ask yourself this, even in the Gorean lifestyle (which I know little about to be fair), if it permissible to do some thing that could potentially kill your slave?

There are two issues in this post. The first was whether or not a slave can say "no". The other sub-question is whether or not her Master was worth serving. If he abuses his property, and the girl is in fear for her life, then the girl should leave. To come forth on a public board and air house business is disrespectful to her Master and his house. The question could have been address in a more general way if all that was desired is information.

What the girl has done is to cast her master in a negative light and appears to be playing the "poor me" routine. She has a Gorean name yet says she is not Gorean. She claims slave yet posts like a subbie. Is the girl really a bottom that just likes to be called slave? All that has been accomplished is that she has cast her master as a man who abuses his property. Whether it be from ignorance or ego, she has brought shame, earned or not to her Master's house.

So yes, You are correct. I am being harsh.

_____________________________

Melissa
Mistress of Ds Haven
www.dshaven.com

The person who says it can not be done, should not interrupt the person doing it. - Ancient Wisdom

(in reply to Adelphus)

RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? - 9/3/2006 10:07:25 AM

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Well, that's complicated, because "consent" has a legal definition, and according to that definition you can't consent to being enslaved.

In my own relationships, it's simple. A slave can say "no" or "stop" at any moment, and then the relationship is permanently ended.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ImpGrrl

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Slaves have no rights. If you have rights, you're not a slave.

But this is *consensual* slavery - thus, everyone has rights.

Though I agree that in the most absolute consensual slavery relationships, the only way to *exercise* those rights is to withdraw that consent and end the relationship.

(in reply to ImpGrrl)

RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? - 9/3/2006 10:17:58 AM

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I realize your way of being differs from mine ownedgirlie, and I have never been disrespectful of who slaves are or what they are to those who possess them, I can only relate so much to a mindset not my own, it doesn't mean I would denigrate that mindset.. It is not for me, it does not mean it isn't for others.. to each their own.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? - 9/3/2006 10:21:27 AM

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Yes, exactly--that's why all the "consent" rhetoric never amounts to much in practice.

quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie

There are slaves who would say they are so mentally/emotionally bound, they could not leave unless thrown out. So when others say "leave whenever you want," this is not something they relate to.

(in reply to ownedgirlie)

RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? - 9/3/2006 10:31:34 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I realize your way of being differs from mine ownedgirlie, and I have never been disrespectful of who slaves are or what they are to those who possess them, I can only relate so much to a mindset not my own, it doesn't mean I would denigrate that mindset.. It is not for me, it does not mean it isn't for others.. to each their own.

I understand, Julia, and I thank you for your point. I had read what I thought was an assumption in your previous post, that everyone has a "I won't let you kill me" limit. Perhaps I misunderstood it. I very much appreciate that we both appreciate our differences :)

(in reply to juliaoceania)

RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? - 9/3/2006 3:19:00 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressMelissa

quote:

ORIGINAL: Adelphus

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressMelissa
Why does the girl bitch now that she is treated this way?

I think that's rather harsh to say.
It sounds like she accepts the lifestyle but has come across an unforseen and terrifying aspect of it. I don't feel she should be chastised for wanting to seek answers for something that could have a potentially devastating effect. There are grave consequences when someone becomes emotionally unbalanced, possibly leading to suicide. Rape by itself has the ability to do that to many people without adding this dimension to it. The girl must be in a bad way if she's speaking up, it may even be survival instinct at this point, we don't know.
Just ask yourself this, even in the Gorean lifestyle (which I know little about to be fair), if it permissible to do some thing that could potentially kill your slave?

There are two issues in this post. The first was whether or not a slave can say "no". The other sub-question is whether or not her Master was worth serving. If he abuses his property, and the girl is in fear for her life, then the girl should leave. To come forth on a public board and air house business is disrespectful to her Master and his house. The question could have been address in a more general way if all that was desired is information.

What the girl has done is to cast her master in a negative light and appears to be playing the "poor me" routine. She has a Gorean name yet says she is not Gorean. She claims slave yet posts like a subbie. Is the girl really a bottom that just likes to be called slave? All that has been accomplished is that she has cast her master as a man who abuses his property. Whether it be from ignorance or ego, she has brought shame, earned or not to her Master's house.

So yes, You are correct. I am being harsh.

Obviously you have very high standards and I respect that, but not everyone knows exactly what they are getting into when they start a relationship like this. They may THINK they do, and maybe for the most part they are, but humans are not divine. More often than not we find ourselves in over our heads and the only way to deal with an unexpected situation is to stop and reconsider. There is no reason why anyone can't re-evaluate a situation when they get more than they bargained for. It's something that happens to everyone at one time or another.
But let me pause a minute to reconsider....
I suppose the real answer to her question should be, "what is the true definition of slavery?" I think she may have taken on the slave lifestyle under one definition of the word 'slave' and is now being held to the definition of others. This may be where her confusion comes in. Unfortunately I don't think there is 'one true' definition that she can go by, judging by the range of answers here.
I think the ideal situation here would be for the two of them (if this relationship is something they really want to be satisfactory for both parties) to step back from the lifestyle element for a moment and redefine the word 'slave'. I'm sure some of you are cringing at the idea of re-negotiating something this far in but not doing so will not make the issue go away.
In the end you have two choices;
1) Ignore the problem and eventually have the relationship disintegrate or;
2) Work out the unforeseen bugs for the benefit of both.
It's just common sense.
In the end it's up to them how much they want each other to be happy.

(in reply to MistressMelissa)

RE: Do slaves have the right to say no? - 9/3/2006 3:51:01 PM

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I've always had a hard time with this...everyone has the "right" to say no. But there may be consequences...so, for me, the real question is...Are you willing to accept the consequences that may result from your saying "no"?

(in reply to toughbutgood)

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