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RE: The Hubble Deep Field: The Most Important Image Eve... - 9/10/2006 7:17:33 AM   
cuddleheart50


Posts: 9718
Joined: 2/20/2006
From: Kentucky
Status: offline
I don't need PROOF that God exists, I have faith.  And I also disagree with you Whip on the "free will".  Don't you have a choice to do as you will?  That is free will.

_____________________________

Dance like no one is watching,
Sing like no one is listening.
Love like you've never been hurt
and live like it's heaven on Earth.


(in reply to WhipTheHip)
Profile   Post #: 121
RE: The Hubble Deep Field: The Most Important Image Eve... - 9/10/2006 7:40:22 AM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline
Quite.
 
Since the discovery of quantum mechanics and the uncertainty principle of Heisenberg physics knows that the universe is not deterministic. In the humanities people have known that for a lot longer.
 
The non-deterministic nature of the universe as well as free will as evidenced by the ability to choose, imply spirituality.

< Message edited by Rule -- 9/10/2006 7:51:00 AM >

(in reply to cuddleheart50)
Profile   Post #: 122
RE: The Hubble Deep Field: The Most Important Image Eve... - 9/10/2006 7:41:58 AM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

and consider that creator worthy of worship

Exciting existence beats boring non-existence, mc.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

even though s/he/it apparently put all the misery in the world and against all rationale they consider the creator benigh.

Creation is a many-sided coin, mc. Misery can be beneficial, especially when the opportunities it provides are accepted. A forest fire for example provides opportunity for new growth, for new life. It even provides for the opportunity for new species to evolve (as happens most visibly on Hawaï), i.e. enables creation.

 *I think creation of what I view as misery can be seen that way, too, Rule. In the Galapagos islands, too (where Darwin felt enough curiosity to impel him to propose evolutionary theory, which led to one theory, and maybe more - of why the dinosaurs became extinct, as I recall).  I remember asking my mother once, as a child, why God would allow someone to be born as retarded, deaf or blind, or live in extreme poverty. I forget what prompted the question, but I very clearly remember her response to me. She said: "To enable people encountering them to develop their patience and compassion." I thought that was a good answer. 

Slightly off topic, but maybe somewhat germane to this discussion: There's a man in the dinner group I belong to which meets monthly, who is legally blind and almost deaf, and he's amazingly bright and tutors high school kids in math and science, via internet and also via home meetings. He's got a twin brother with the same disabilities - they were both born with them. People can get impatient with him at times, because he tends to speak too loudly at times, and he also has a hard time seeing things like steps, but he is anything but what some might classify as a "slow learner", and he is sensitive to the fact that people can be sensitive to this (I've seen this anyway) - and seeing him interact with some of the other members, can get challenging for me to watch, occasionally, but I find him truly inspiring.  He's a catalyst for compassion, or can be, anyway (least I think so).

I'm not sure what his brother does for a living, but their mother made sure they both got a good education and now at least one of them is "passing it on". They both might have been relegated to an institution, if the public school system at the time where they both grew up had had much to say about it (from what he's insinuated to me). They were both born in the mid-1940's  - and their mom had to really work to find a school that would help teach them in their geographic area. She partly home-schooled them for a long time, due to that. Of course she loved them and cared about what she saw as their possible quality of life, if she hadn't done that, which is not a small thing. Some people amaze me - I think along this line of thinking, Ray Charles, and Stevie Wonder are amazing. Anybody see the movie "Ray"? I loved it. Anyway..back to the topic at hand (but, I think the 'God of Compassion' may well have been at work in these basic examples. Just my opinion). 

- Susan



< Message edited by SusanofO -- 9/10/2006 8:15:11 AM >


_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to Rule)
Profile   Post #: 123
RE: The Hubble Deep Field: The Most Important Image Eve... - 9/10/2006 8:29:49 AM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

Quite.
 
Since the discovery of quantum mechanics and the uncertainty principle of Heisenberg physics knows that the universe is not deterministic. In the humanities people have known that for a lot longer.
 
The non-deterministic nature of the universe as well as free will as evidenced by the ability to choose, imply spirituality.
* I like to think so, too, Rule (not that I want to argue, particuarly, with anyone who doesn't, just in case they think I am implying that by agreeing. I read a quote by Einstein one time, that he stated at the end of his life if he wished he'd chosen another occupation and he said: "I should have bene a plumber, instead". And we could get into that cat chasing its tail thing, but I do know that's not where you are going with this, because I "get" what you are saying (really). I think maybe even before quantum mechanics and the Heisenberg principle came along, spirituality may have been intuited by some people (Not that I can irrefutably prove it - or that you were impying I might be able to do that). I particularly liked your free-will choice of the word imply.
 
Is the Heisenberg principle that one that states the velocity and energy of an atomic particle cannot be measured with precision? And quantum mechanics the ares of study within physics of particles of matter and how they intereact with eachother?  I read last week in TIME magazine, in an article aboout how the stars were "born",  that huge portions of the universe are comprised of what is known to some physicists as: anti-matter and "black holes"(the majority of what many top-notch scientists can intuit from studying them, partly from viewing some of the Hubble telescope pictures. And the Keck tlelescopes in Hawaii. 

It was an interesting article, I thought. The head-line stated: "Let there be Light: 400,00 years after the Big Bang, the Cosmos went black. Here's what happened next:.Illuminating a Dark Age - how the universe grew from a murky soup to twinkling galaxies". 

"When the Dark ages began, the cosmos was a formless sea of particles; by the time it ended, just a couple hundred million years later, the universe was alight with young stars gathering into nascent galaxies. It was during the dark ages that the checmical elements we know so well - carbon, oxygen, nitrogen, and most of the rest - were first forged out of a primordial hydrogen and heelium. And it was during this time that the great structures of the modern universe - superclusters of thousands of galaxies strecthing across millions of light years - began to assemble. So far, however, even the mightitest telescopes haven'tbeen able to penetrate that murky ers. "We have a photo album of the universe -but its missing pages - as though you had pictures of a childas an infant ,ans then as a teenager - with nothing in-bewtween" says, Avi Loeb, a theroretical astropysucust at Harvard university. The full answer may have to wait for a new generation of telescopes, expected to come in line within the next decade. In astronomy, size matters, especially for far away objects. The bigger the telescope, the more of a distant galaxies light it can gather - just as a swimming pool carries more rain than a bucket...."meanwhile, astronomers have been able to put together a plasible scenario of what must have happened during the Dark Ages".


The first of those hints comes from the universe-wide flash of light that followed nearly half a million years after the Big Bang. Before that flash ocurred, according to the widely accepted "standard model" of cosmology, our entire cosmos had swelled from a space smaller thanan atom to something 100 billion miles across. It was a seething maelstrom of matter so hot that subatomic particles trying to form into ato,s would hav ebeen blasted apart instantly and so dense that light couldn't have travelled more than a short distance before being absorbed. If you could somehow live long enough in such conditions, you would see nothing but bright light in all directions.

But as the universe expanded, it finally cooled down long enough to allow atoms to form and light to shine out across open space. The accidental discovery of that lightf back in the 1960's convinced astronomers that the Big Bang was a rea; event, not just a theoretical construct"...and the artulce oges on to say how an increasingly sophisticated series of instruments..."have laid bare the structure of the 400,000 year-old cosmos - only a few hundred-thousandths of its present age - in surprising detail (this  was the baby picture Loeb referred to). "At that point the universe was a very simple place... you ca summarize the initial conditions on a sinlge sheet of paper. Some regions were a tuny but deeper than average, and some a little more sparse, Most of the stuff in it - thyen and stull today- was the mysterious dark matter that nobody has yet identified,, largely beacuse it doesn't produce ligth of any sprt. The rest was mostly oxygen, with a little bit of helium mixed in. So far, the universe hadn't done anything." 

The First Stars
"At the start of the Dark Ages, there were no galaxies, no stars, no planets. Even if there had been, we wouldn't have been able to spot them. That's because hydrogen-gas clouds are nearly opaque to visible light;no ordinary telescope would have been able to see what hapened afterward. Yet somehow the matter that started as a sea of individual atoms managed to ransform itself into a seas of something more. So back in the 1990s, Loeb began lobbying theroists to make ma major push to deduce the first computer simlulations how the  fuurst stars formed. The plan was to re-create the young universe digitally, plug in equations for the rlevant physics and see what may have happened".

"At first, the simulations agree, gravity was the only force at work. Regions of higher density drew matter to them, becoming denser still-a pattern preserved to  this day in the distribution of galaxies....

Anyway - I won't reprint the entire article here (there's a bit more, below). But - is said that astronomers believed the first galaxies looked like, and what scientsts are doing to be able to  really see more, and that they have tantalizing clues as to why the universe came to gether and how - more than they had before.  

It says, "in the 1930s Albert Einstein realized a star could act as a lens, distorting and amplifying the light from somethig behind it. In practice, he said, it was probably so rare that we will never see it. Einstein was wrong. So -called gravitational lenses have become a major factor in modern astronomy. They have revealed, among other things, the existence of tiny planets around stars thousands of light-years away, and xreated weird optical effects, inclusding mutliple images of faraway quasars. If you look at a massive cluster of galaxies, it is figured, you might see amplified images of more ditant galaxies - too faint to  see otherwise. So a year ago", a scientist called Ellis "started aiming the Keck tlelxscope at galactic clusters, and, along with Stark (another scientist)he identified six candidate objects as "more distant galaxies". To make certain these were truly far away, the pair has come back (twice) fora more intensive look.

"We want to be able to be absolutely sure we arent' kidding ourselves before we claim we've actually found them"...ti their delight, both Stark and Ellis are able to confrim that at least three of the faint galaxies do seem to lie hundreds of millins of light years closer to the Big Bang-than anything they've seen before...we're now very confident and very excited. If we've found this many in such a tiny area of the sky, there could be enough of those small galaxies to supply a substantial fraction of the energy that reionized the universe. I'm confident that we have an im porttant result"

"If anything, that's an undersatement. The first galaxies to emerge from the black hole of the early universe can't be studied in detail until telescopic technology makes another great leap. But Ellis and Stark may hav egotten a glimpse-and given thoerists the first hard evidence-of that unimaginably distant time when the comos left infancy behind, and entered the formative childhood that led, eventually, to our sun, and the tuny blue planet that encircles it".    

I know it's not about the Hubble Telescope pictures, but is it about picures of the vosmos, and I thought some might enjoy reading part of the article. 
  

- Susan   

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 9/10/2006 9:52:08 AM >


_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to Rule)
Profile   Post #: 124
RE: The Hubble Deep Field: The Most Important Image Eve... - 9/10/2006 9:06:38 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WhipTheHip

What is evidence of "free will"?    How could it ever be proved or disproved?  The concept
of "free will" is inheriently meaningless.



Everything is inherently meaningless.

(in reply to WhipTheHip)
Profile   Post #: 125
RE: The Hubble Deep Field: The Most Important Image Eve... - 9/10/2006 9:44:15 AM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO
Is the Heisenberg principle that one that states the velocity and energy of an atomic particle cannot be measured with precision?

Yes.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

And quantum mechanics the area of study within physics of particles of matter and how they intereact with each other? 

Specifically of all subatomic particles whether they be matter or not. These particles are described by a non-deterministic wave function. (In principle all objects - like the voyager and pioneer space craft and even the universe in its entirety may be described by such a non-deterministic wave function.) The uncertainty principle of Heisenberg is an inherent part of this wave function, I think. (I do not know whether a quantum mechanic agrees with me.)
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO
I read last week in TIME magazine that huge portions of the universe are comprised of what is known to some physicists as: anti-matter and "black holes"(the majority of what many top-notch scientists can intuit from studying them, partly from viewing some of the Hubble telescope pictures).

They probably did not refer to anti-matter, but to "dark matter". It does not exist. In my conceptual science book about my discoveries in astrophysics and astronomy I have shown that the observations from which astronomers infer the presence of "dark matter" are better explained by an electrical phenomenon. (Astronomers are obsessed with gravity and it blinds them to other solutions.)
 
Neither am I convinced that black holes exist. I have provided arguments that the smaller ones are simply neutron stars spinning at high speeds, and I suspect by extension that the same is true for the mega black holes in the centres of galaxies.

(in reply to SusanofO)
Profile   Post #: 126
RE: The Hubble Deep Field: The Most Important Image Eve... - 9/10/2006 9:54:19 AM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

Quite.
 
Since the discovery of quantum mechanics and the uncertainty principle of Heisenberg physics knows that the universe is not deterministic. In the humanities people have known that for a lot longer.
 
The non-deterministic nature of the universe as well as free will as evidenced by the ability to choose, imply spirituality.
* I like to think so, too, Rule (not that I want to argue, particuarly, with anyone who doesn't, just in case they think I am implying that by agreeing. I read a quote by Einstein one time, that he stated at the end of his life if he wished he'd chosen another occupation and he said: "I should have bene a plumber, instead". And we could get into that cat chasing its tail thing, but I do know that's not where you are going with this, because I "get" what you are saying (really). I think maybe even before quantum mechanics and the Heisenberg principle came along, spirituality may have been intuited by some people (Not that I can irrefutably prove it - or that you were impying I might be able to do that). I particularly liked your free-will choice of the word imply.
 
Is the Heisenberg principle that one that states the velocity and energy of an atomic particle cannot be measured with precision? And quantum mechanics the ares of study within physics of particles of matter and how they intereact with eachother?  I read last week in TIME magazine, in an article aboout how the stars were "born",  that huge portions of the universe are comprised of what is known to some physicists as: anti-matter and "black holes"(the majority of what many top-notch scientists can intuit from studying them, partly from viewing some of the Hubble telescope pictures. And the Keck tlelescopes in Hawaii. 

It was an interesting article, I thought. The head-line stated: "Let there be Light: 400,00 years after the Big Bang, the Cosmos went black. Here's what happened next:.Illuminating a Dark Age - how the universe grew from a murky soup to twinkling galaxies". 

"When the Dark ages began, the cosmos was a formless sea of particles; by the time it ended, just a couple hundred million years later, the universe was alight with young stars gathering into nascent galaxies. It was during the dark ages that the checmical elements we know so well - carbon, oxygen, nitrogen, and most of the rest - were first forged out of a primordial hydrogen and heelium. And it was during this time that the great structures of the modern universe - superclusters of thousands of galaxies strecthing across millions of light years - began to assemble. So far, however, even the mightitest telescopes haven'tbeen able to penetrate that murky era.

"We have a photo album of the universe -but its missing pages - as though you had pictures of a childas an infant ,ans then as a teenager - with nothing in-bewtween" says, Avi Loeb, a theroretical astropysicist at Harvard University. The full answer may have to wait for a new generation of telescopes, expected to come in line within the next decade. In astronomy, size matters, especially for far away objects. The bigger the telescope, the more of a distant galaxies light it can gather - just as a swimming pool carries more rain than a bucket...."meanwhile, astronomers have been able to put together a plausible scenario of what must have happened during the Dark Ages".


The first of those hints come from the universe-wide flash of light that followed nearly half a million years after the Big Bang. Before that flash ocurred, according to the widely accepted "standard model" of cosmology, our entire cosmos had swelled from a space smaller thanan atom to something 100 billion miles across. It was a seething maelstrom of matter so hot that subatomic particles trying to form into ato,s would hav ebeen blasted apart instantly and so dense that light couldn't have travelled more than a short distance before being absorbed. If you could somehow live long enough in such conditions, you would see nothing but bright light in all directions.

But as the universe expanded, it finally cooled down long enough to allow atoms to form and light to shine out across open space. The accidental discovery of that lightf back in the 1960's convinced astronomers that the Big Bang was a real event, not just a theoretical construct"...and the artulce oges on to say how an increasingly sophisticated series of instruments..."have laid bare the structure of the 400,000 year-old cosmos - only a few hundred-thousandths of its present age - in surprising detail (this  was the baby picture Loeb referred to). "At that point the universe was a very simple place... you ca summarize the initial conditions on a sinlge sheet of paper. Some regions were a tuny but deeper than average, and some a little more sparse, Most of the stuff in it - thyen and stull today- was the mysterious dark matter that nobody has yet identified,, largely beacuse it doesn't produce ligth of any sprt. The rest was mostly oxygen, with a little bit of helium mixed in. So far, the universe hadn't done anything." 

The First Stars
"At the start of the Dark Ages, there were no galaxies, no stars, no planets. Even if there had been, we wouldn't have been able to spot them. That's because hydrogen-gas clouds are nearly opaque to visible light;no ordinary telescope would have been able to see what hapened afterward. Yet somehow the matter that started as a sea of individual atoms managed to ransform itself into a seas of something more. So back in the 1990s, Loeb began lobbying theroists to make ma major push to deduce the first computer simlulations how the  fuurst stars formed. The plan was to re-create the young universe digitally, plug in equations for the rlevant physics and see what may have happened".

"At first, the simulations agree, gravity was the only force at work. Regions of higher density drew matter to them, becoming denser still-a pattern preserved to  this day in the distribution of galaxies....

Anyway - I won't reprint the entire article here (there's a bit more, below). But - is said that astronomers believed the first galaxies looked like, and what scientsts are doing to be able to  really see more, and that they have tantalizing clues as to why the universe came to gether and how - more than they had before.  

It says, "in the 1930s Albert Einstein realized a star could act as a lens, distorting and amplifying the light from somethig behind it. In practice, he said, it was probably so rare that we will never see it. Einstein was wrong. So -called gravitational lenses have become a major factor in modern astronomy. They have revealed, among other things, the existence of tiny planets around stars thousands of light-years away, and xreated weird optical effects, inclusding mutliple images of faraway quasars. If you look at a massive cluster of galaxies, it is figured, you might see amplified images of more ditant galaxies - too faint to  see otherwise. So a year ago", a scientist called Ellis "started aiming the Keck tlelxscope at galactic clusters, and, along with Stark (another scientist)he identified six candidate objects as "more distant galaxies". To make certain these were truly far away, the pair has come back (twice) fora more intensive look.

"We want to be able to be absolutely sure we arent' kidding ourselves before we claim we've actually found them"...ti their delight, both Stark and Ellis are able to confrim that at least three of the faint galaxies do seem to lie hundreds of millins of light years closer to the Big Bang-than anything they've seen before...we're now very confident and very excited. If we've found this many in such a tiny area of the sky, there could be enough of those small galaxies to supply a substantial fraction of the energy that reionized the universe. I'm confident that we have an im porttant result"

"If anything, that's an undersatement. The first galaxies to emerge from the black hole of the early universe can't be studied in detail until telescopic technology makes another great leap. But Ellis and Stark may hav egotten a glimpse-and given thoerists the first hard evidence-of that unimaginably distant time when the comos left infancy behind, and entered the formative childhood that led, eventually, to our sun, and the tuny blue planet that encircles it".    

I know it's not about the Hubble Telescope pictures, but is it about picures of the cosmos, and I thought some might enjoy reading part of the article. 
 
*I apologize for all the typos. Typing isn't a strong suit of mine - and the edit function timed out before I had a chance correct the first draft, visible in my post immediately above. 
  

- Susan   
[/quote
]

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 9/10/2006 10:25:17 AM >


_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to SusanofO)
Profile   Post #: 127
RE: The Hubble Deep Field: The Most Important Image Eve... - 9/10/2006 10:06:04 AM   
WhipTheHip


Posts: 1004
Joined: 7/31/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cuddleheart50
I don't need PROOF that God exists, I have faith. 


And bin Ladin has faith.  And so do Hindus.  And so do all
the people who believe in ancient superstitious myths.

> And I also disagree with you Whip on the "free will". 
> Don't you have a choice to do as you will? 

So do animals.  So do chess computers.  I have to do
as I will. If I don't will to do something of course I
won't do it.

> That is free will.

If that is free will, then computers have free will. 
Computers are able to choose to do as they will. 


_____________________________



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Profile   Post #: 128
RE: The Hubble Deep Field: The Most Important Image Eve... - 9/10/2006 10:11:40 AM   
WhipTheHip


Posts: 1004
Joined: 7/31/2006
Status: offline
ORIGINAL: Rule
> Quite.  Since the discovery of quantum mechanics and the uncertainty principle
> of Heisenberg physics knows that the universe is not deterministic.
 
Everything in the universe is deterministic. Absence of knowledge does not
indeterminism make.
 
> The non-deterministic nature of the universe as well as free will as
> evidenced by the ability to choose, imply spirituality.

Non-deterministic is random, the exact opposite of free will.
Chess computers choose, so do amebea, so do worms.
We are all programmed by evolution, and we can't make a
choice that is outside our programming.

_____________________________



(in reply to Rule)
Profile   Post #: 129
RE: The Hubble Deep Field: The Most Important Image Eve... - 9/10/2006 10:12:36 AM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
Joined: 12/19/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO
Is the Heisenberg principle that one that states the velocity and energy of an atomic particle cannot be measured with precision?

Yes.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO

And quantum mechanics the area of study within physics of particles of matter and how they intereact with each other? 

Specifically of all subatomic particles whether they be matter or not. These particles are described by a non-deterministic wave function. (In principle all objects - like the voyager and pioneer space craft and even the universe in its entirety may be described by such a non-deterministic wave function.) The uncertainty principle of Heisenberg is an inherent part of this wave function, I think. (I do not know whether a quantum mechanic agrees with me.) *Thanks for explaining that , and as your point of view.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO
I read last week in TIME magazine that huge portions of the universe are comprised of what is known to some physicists as: anti-matter and "black holes"(the majority of what many top-notch scientists can intuit from studying them, partly from viewing some of the Hubble telescope pictures).

They probably did not refer to anti-matter, but to "dark matter". It does not exist. In my conceptual science book about my discoveries in astrophysics and astronomy I have shown that the observations from which astronomers infer the presence of "dark matter" are better explained by an electrical phenomenon. (Astronomers are obsessed with gravity and it blinds them to other solutions.)
 
Neither am I convinced that black holes exist. I have provided arguments that the smaller ones are simply neutron stars spinning at high speeds, and I suspect by extension that the same is true for the mega black holes in the centres of galaxies.


*I thought there was an implication of of dark matter in the article, but I won't quibble.

What is the name of your book, btw? (If you can say, or prefer to say).

My point in even re-printing part of it was just that the universe is vast, and that, although great discoveries have been made, and very very exciting ones, scientists all are still "on the verge of discovering" what may lie within the "murky soup" of the universe.

All Astronomers are obsessed with gravity?  So - they are looking at a study of the cosmos within an "astronomical framework", then like some electricans, or electrical engineers, or, even some physicists that study quantum mechanics might be blinded to an astronomical solution to some question? Or simply not prefer to seee it as a major part of a contribution to an advancement toward advancing a study of the universe? 

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 9/10/2006 10:16:41 AM >


_____________________________

"Hope is the thing with feathers,
That perches in the soul,
And sings the tune without the words,
And never stops at all". - Emily Dickinson

(in reply to Rule)
Profile   Post #: 130
RE: The Hubble Deep Field: The Most Important Image Eve... - 9/10/2006 10:15:24 AM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline
There never was a Big Bang. The Big Bang is not a fact, but an interpretation of a few observed phenomena. In my book I proposed (not proved) a different, "classical" explanation for each of those phenomena. In fact (these days I do not pay attention to these things, but I do infrequently pick up some news) astrophysicists and cosmologists are starting to feel very uncomfortable about their beloved Big Bang theology. I consider Big Bang propaganda the acts of desperate men. (Of course they in their turn will call me a cook or a crank, but what do they know?)
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO
like some electricans, or electrical engineers, or, even some physicists that study quantum mechanics might be blinded to an astronomical solution to some question?

No, physicists and astronomers are very well aware of advances in both sciences. As to gravity, that is only important at large distances, so it is very important in astronomy but much less so in other sciences. But if you have been conditioned to nearly always use gravity to explain an observation, then you do become handicapped when confronted by a new phenomenon - but that is true in any science.

< Message edited by Rule -- 9/10/2006 10:30:32 AM >

(in reply to SusanofO)
Profile   Post #: 131
RE: The Hubble Deep Field: The Most Important Image Eve... - 9/10/2006 10:20:33 AM   
cuddleheart50


Posts: 9718
Joined: 2/20/2006
From: Kentucky
Status: offline
Whip, what kind of computer do you have?  my computer doesnt choose to do what it wants to do.  It does what I tell it to do.  If I remember correctly, didnt men and women program computers.

Animals go on instinct. not on free will.

_____________________________

Dance like no one is watching,
Sing like no one is listening.
Love like you've never been hurt
and live like it's heaven on Earth.


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Profile   Post #: 132
RE: The Hubble Deep Field: The Most Important Image Eve... - 9/10/2006 10:21:27 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline
Oh yes, physicists the world over will immediately throw the Big Bang onto the junkheap, right next to the flat-earth theory, because some guy on the internet proposes to write a book with a different explanation.

Have you even studied physics?  And, not to point too fine a point on it--what is your alternative theory?  There's a Nobel Prize waitin' for ya...

(in reply to Rule)
Profile   Post #: 133
RE: The Hubble Deep Field: The Most Important Image Eve... - 9/10/2006 10:21:33 AM   
WhipTheHip


Posts: 1004
Joined: 7/31/2006
Status: offline
> These particles are described by a non-deterministic wave function.
 
The wave-function psi is completely described by Schrodinger's equation and
is 100% deterministic. 
 
> (In principle all objects - like the voyager and pioneer space craft and even
> the universe in its entirety may be described by such a non-deterministic wave
> function.)
 
In reality, everything is described by the "DETERMINISTIC" wave-function.
 
> The uncertainty principle of Heisenberg is an inherent part of this wave
> function, I think.
 
No, it isn't.   
 
> (I do not know whether a quantum mechanic agrees with me.)
 
It doesn't.
 
Ultimately, the truth doesn't matter because people will alway
believe what they want to believe.  They will believe everything
but the truth because the truth is not pleasant, and people
would rather believe in a happy fairy tale, then in harsh reality.
 
Every television show, every movie is based on man's wish
for something other than reality.    If Hollywood produced
a movie that was true, no one would watch it.
 
Man desperately wants to believe that he is or can be
more than he really is. 

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Profile   Post #: 134
RE: The Hubble Deep Field: The Most Important Image Eve... - 9/10/2006 10:23:36 AM   
anthrosub


Posts: 843
Joined: 6/2/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: anthrosub
Religions have been giving us answers based on a way of looking at the world that's thousands of year old.  A lot has been learned since then.

Does that invalidate everything that any religion has to contribute to humanity?
 


Of course not but what has been learned since ancient times presents compelling evidence that it was people who created the idea of a God and built religions around it.  Does this mean that God does not exist?  It depends on what you consider God to be.  If you think it's the God described in a religion, then you have to consider where the description originated.  If you look past that and instead think about what religions are pointing towards, then it's a different matter.
 
I would say it's extremely obvious that the God(s) represented in each religion is a myth.  But the values and ideas presented on living a good life are not invalidated by this realization.  At best, what we can say about what's out there in all honesty is, "We don't know."  But that's not satisfactory for most people, they need something more defined...a story.  The problem is over time, people as a culture tend to forget that the description is not the thing and lose the connection with direct experience.
 
This is my main point.
 
anthrosub

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Profile   Post #: 135
RE: The Hubble Deep Field: The Most Important Image Eve... - 9/10/2006 10:24:53 AM   
Lordandmaster


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Well, I've been staying out of the free-will fracas because there's just too much basic material about free will as a philosophical problem that both sides evidently haven't read, but I can't let this statement go.  How do you know how animals make decisions?  Maybe THEIR exercise of free will looks like instinct to US.

That's the kernel, by the way, of a pretty powerful anti-free will argument in human beings, but I'm not going to be bothered to lay it out.  You know, I'm not going to press "Play" on the "Bad Ideas about Free Will" CD.

Do I believe it myself?  I don't think we have the perspective that would be necessary in order to know.

quote:

ORIGINAL: cuddleheart50

Animals go on instinct. not on free will.


< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 9/10/2006 10:25:40 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 136
RE: The Hubble Deep Field: The Most Important Image Eve... - 9/10/2006 10:28:35 AM   
cuddleheart50


Posts: 9718
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From: Kentucky
Status: offline
No, I havent read anything about free will. Nothing at all....  Its just common sense to me.

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Dance like no one is watching,
Sing like no one is listening.
Love like you've never been hurt
and live like it's heaven on Earth.


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Profile   Post #: 137
RE: The Hubble Deep Field: The Most Important Image Eve... - 9/10/2006 10:30:14 AM   
Lordandmaster


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Joined: 6/22/2004
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That's what's wrong with common sense, cuddleheart.  Really.  Sometimes the things we assume must be true turn out not to be true.

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Profile   Post #: 138
RE: The Hubble Deep Field: The Most Important Image Eve... - 9/10/2006 10:31:08 AM   
cuddleheart50


Posts: 9718
Joined: 2/20/2006
From: Kentucky
Status: offline
I may be wrong, but we all have to believe in something.  And thats what I believe.

_____________________________

Dance like no one is watching,
Sing like no one is listening.
Love like you've never been hurt
and live like it's heaven on Earth.


(in reply to Lordandmaster)
Profile   Post #: 139
RE: The Hubble Deep Field: The Most Important Image Eve... - 9/10/2006 10:32:22 AM   
WhipTheHip


Posts: 1004
Joined: 7/31/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cuddleheart50
Whip, what kind of computer do you have?  my computer doesnt
choose to do what it wants to do.  It does what I tell it to do.


Then you must have the only computer of its kind.  My computer
never does what I want it to do.   I have never met anyone with
a computer that did what they tell it to do.  Bill Gates certainly
did not tell his computer to start on fire at the annual world's
computer convention.

> If I remember correctly, didnt men and women program computers.

Some computers were programmed by men and women.  Humans
are also programmed by men and women.  They are called parental
units.  Nature also programs us.  Did you choose to be female with
female hormones?  I think not!  Did you choose to be sexually attracted
to men?  Did you choose the foods you like and the foods you
dislike?  Who are you kidding?  Did you choose what things turn
you on and what things turn you off?  No.  Nature programmed you
with desires, and you act on those desires.    You did not choose
your desires.

> Animals go on instinct. not on free will.

I guess you don't own a cat, dog, monkey or horse.  You need to
retake Biology 101.    Most animals don't operate on instinct
alone.  And humans behave instinctually, too.


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Profile   Post #: 140
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