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RE: Your BEST "mindfuck" as a scene is ? - 1/10/2005 4:37:29 PM   
perverseangelic


Posts: 2625
Joined: 2/2/2004
From: Davis, Ca
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Darthbetta
If your TRUST LEVEL is not constantly tested and "pushed" then we get stagnant and there is no spark in BDSM.. it just turns into rutine...


Totally and 100% disagree. Why would you need to test trust? Do new things, sure. Experament, sure. Heck, even doing the same stuff over and over is pretty dang nice, depending on the partner.

I -do- see what you're saying, and can see how it might work for others. However, it wouldn't work for me, as a person. However, the fact that I don't want my partner to push my trust doesn't make me any less his. Nor does it make me any less serious. It just makes me someone who doesn't do limit pushing.

Your second example sounded like fun to me, because it wasn't making one's partner believe that you would do something that violated her limits, rather,you pushed her endurance.

I believe that limits are limits. Period. To make someone believe that you are violating them, to me, is the same as violating them because you are creating the same emotional reaction as if you had.

Does that make sense?

_____________________________

~in the begining it is always dark~

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RE: Your BEST "mindfuck" as a scene is ? - 1/10/2005 4:45:37 PM   
Darthbetta


Posts: 314
Joined: 12/16/2004
Status: offline 		sure it makes sense..... but "Pissing oneself" is not a FEAR emotion, as more of a humilliation and bodily functions and tollerance issue.

see my point ?

(in reply to perverseangelic)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Your BEST "mindfuck" as a scene is ? - 1/10/2005 5:03:28 PM   
liljoy


Posts: 577
Joined: 3/25/2004
Status: offline 		Yea!! Yippie!! i was sooo hoping that You, Insideyormind and Topcat would answer!!!
i agree after working to develope trust it's wise to work on keeping it and not tossing it out the window. Thank You for a voice of reason

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

Your BEST "mindfuck" as a scene is ...


Sorry, as much of a sadist that I am, I would never risk beth's trust with this type of play. Trust takes a long time to build and it's important to maintain. It's beautiful, strong, but fragile; sort of like the spider web in the last scenario. I know I am NOT a trusting person. I think that makes me less susceptible to mind fucks as well as less likely to initiate one.

But don't get me wrong - I love a good "mindfuck" as much as the next guy. They are very useful and often help to make a point. For example, back in the day - a business associate was attempting to 'fuck' me. In the days before caller ID and all the current technology, I called a funeral director and said he died unexpectedly. They sent a hearse and coroner over to his house at 3:00 AM to pick him up. Kind of made him aware of his mortality and greatly improved his business ethics.



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Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Your BEST "mindfuck" as a scene is ? - 1/10/2005 5:11:00 PM   
liljoy


Posts: 577
Joined: 3/25/2004
Status: offline 		YES!! Phobia's can be overcome. Master has helped me overcome some of mine exactly this way

quote:

ORIGINAL: INSIDEYOURMIND

As some of you may know, I am an avid collector of snakes.

I have had people that were terrified of snakes, and after some gentle prodding, they touched one of the snakes, and their fear is gone! I had a friend that for the longest time wouldn't even come to my house, we graduated to coming in, but I had to cover the enclosures, he is now a snake owner as well!

carolyn's aunt was one of them, she didn't like to even hear the word snake, but after a time she was past it.

When we come to visit, she is disappointed if we don't bring one with us.

Typically, we are afraid of things we don't understand, and once we do, our fears are eased.

Here is a photo of carolyn with a couple of the kids.....






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Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Your BEST "mindfuck" as a scene is ? - 1/10/2005 5:17:47 PM   
liljoy


Posts: 577
Joined: 3/25/2004
Status: offline 		i've read this 4 times and still don't understand what You are saying. i usually don't have any problem following You posts.

i do think i'm reading that You are in favor of MF play but i'm not even sure i'm reading that right Would You care to clarify?

quote:

ORIGINAL: topcat

To all-

For me- all this stuff is all about the Mindfuck, about finding that edge, that place of fear (?) too strong a word- anxiety? uncertainy, maybe.

I do this stuff for the connection, for that spark we can strike in those deep dark corners of our minds, the murky places were is, was, and never all come too close to parse.

Basic Mammalian thinking- escape fear/pain. you know fear/pain becaase you are weak/little. submit/bond to the big/strong to be safe from the pain/fear.

So fast forward a few million years. We are all strong, individual. We control the world, and have no fear.

But we miss that bonding.

So we find another, an other, and make them powerful. And when the other makes us hurt/fear, some little distant thing, deep in the back of our mind, leaps that gap of epochs, and that spark, that bond is there- and we are whole again.

I am so aware that this is only my take on this stuff, and that while it might offer an explaination for submission, it leaves dominants out in the cold. So far, however, it works for me.

Stay warm,
Lawrence



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Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Your BEST "mindfuck" as a scene is ? - 1/10/2005 5:25:46 PM   
liljoy


Posts: 577
Joined: 3/25/2004
Status: offline 		now this one i can see and i see it as safe.
Can You see what we are saying about the other one that even planting a seed of doubt that Master would take the life of the one He has promised to value and protect is not such a good idea? Also that things could go wrong that You'd not be able to control with that first scene?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darthbetta

Another " mindfuck" I had recently is having my sub ( Whom trust me 110 % and I would NEVER put in a danger or harm's way) on a long road trip aske me to pull off at the next rest tstop to pee. I didn't. and played it ofas I completely forgot because I was toying with the radio trying to get reception..... We went a few more exits on the interstate, and she said " I really need to Pee".... I said "OK, next exit...... I PROMISE..." Little did she know that the NEXT exit was 54 miles....... UNTILL we passed a sign saying such 3 miles after the toll booth.
SHE freaked out....... saying she was going to piss the seat and pleaded with me to pull over so she could pee into the scrub brush and bushes. I said NO .. HOLD IT".....


She tantrumed and carried on and whined, but beared down for a few more miles...... then blurted out " I really AM going to pee the seat"...... I told her she bette not, because if she did she would regret it....



fast forward 1 more mile, I knew of an " UNLISTED " rest stop with a porta potty on it. She was ""oooo Ooo Ooo ing"... and she ran so fast to the John that I was laughing so hard, I minorly wet myself too ( we both had to piss baddly).

THIS IS THE FUN that there is to be had.

If your TRUST LEVEL is not constantly tested and "pushed" then we get stagnant and there is no spark in BDSM.. it just turns into rutine...
EXERCISE your mind, and the TRUST levels will never ever be broken, or give a partner reason to doubt you.

I absolutely adore my _Somnovi_... and she loves her Master also.

SSC ? right ? Tust, Love, and Tenderness.... I have all that, and I keep things very carefree and fun. MENTAL BONDAGE is far stronger than any rope, shackle, or chain will ever be.

If you do ot know your "partner" in a scene , or a persons reactions to a stimuli, then THAT PERSON IS NOT KNOWING WHAT IS GOING ON....

I for one am NOT an asshat, and to be judged as such based upon a topic is assinine.

Sorry for some gruffness, but I tend to call it as I see it.... Upon background information and more details of a person and what makes them tick.... :

hope this clarifies it.




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Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Your BEST "mindfuck" as a scene is ? - 1/10/2005 6:10:37 PM   
topcat


Posts: 1675
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Tidewater, VA
Status: offline 		Midear 'Joy-

Well, I am saying that it is all Mindfuck- that if you don't go to that place, if there is no fear, you won't get the connection.

To put it anotherway, I f I don't test your trust- if I don't bring you right up to the things you fear- do you really trust me? If I don't ever exceeed your comfort level- be it mentally, emotionally, or physically- where is my power? Am I just a massuse in leather?

Is that clearer?

Everyone's limits/edges/landmines are different- and everyones ability to and style of face their fears is different. Some of the scenerios here scare some of our readers, but sound great to others. I work in saltwater with live 12 olt DC all the time- it tickles, and what you would have to do to make it actually stop someones heart is pretty elaborate. On the other hand, I had a girl once who was so terrified of static electric shocks- the sort that you could get from a doorknob in winter- that I could reduce her to tears by tying her up and shuffling my feet on the carpet (she never did seem to realise that the place was so damp, being right on the bay, that you could never get a shock off of anything<g>).

In another case, I played with a lit cigarette near her (an different 'her') breast letting her feel the heat, asking if she'd let me burn her- would she go that far? she became more and more convinced that I would actually do it if she said yes- and that I might do it anyway, as I let her feel the heat on her skin, as she realiezed that she really couldn't move away from it when she was getting more panicky. She was blindfolded, and could hear the crackle as I drew on the cigarette, making glow hotter, after telling her that if she hadn't safeworded by the time I counted down from five...

I switched the cigarette to the other hand, cuppin a little saliva in that palm, and as I said one, and pushed a cold burnt out butt into her nipple, I let the hot one sizzle out in my other palm. as I ground the cold one into her nipple she finally screamed her safeword.

I brushed the blindfold off and showed her my hands. She got all weepy-saying that NOW she new what submission really was...

The next day she was actually begging me to do it for real, so she could give to to me. I refused, explaining that I had plans for that nipple that would be interupted by it's healing time. But I did take everything else...

Stay warm,
Lawrence

Stay warm,
Lawrence


_____________________________

-there is no remission without blood-

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RE: Your BEST "mindfuck" as a scene is ? - 1/10/2005 6:28:05 PM   
nella


Posts: 1243
Joined: 12/30/2004
From: Norway
Status: offline 		I can see why somone might like to push limits and test trust, but to say those that do not have no spark?

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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Your BEST "mindfuck" as a scene is ? - 1/10/2005 6:31:21 PM   
topcat


Posts: 1675
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Tidewater, VA
Status: offline 		Midear Nella-

well-OK-no no spark, but certainly not that spark that you only get when you know that you have really put you life in anothers hands, when you have given the real trust without limits, and know that it is OK...

That's just my veiw on this stuff, that's all. Not for everyone.

Stay warm,
Lawrence

_____________________________

-there is no remission without blood-

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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Your BEST "mindfuck" as a scene is ? - 1/10/2005 6:39:33 PM   
SherriA


Posts: 544
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: topcat

Well, I am saying that it is all Mindfuck- that if you don't go to that place, if there is no fear, you won't get the connection.


I don't know about that. For me, very little (if any) of it is mindfuck. Sure, it's all about dancing on the edges and trying not to fall over them, but that's the point, isn't it? Certainly that doesn't diminish the connection I have with my partners. Where's the mindfuck in that when I'm all for it from the word go?

I don't (usually) play with people who I think are going to do things that I'm not ok with. If I don't trust someone to know when to stop pushing, then I generally don't even bother, cuz the challenge is what I love about wiitwd. But, because of that, there's not much mindfuck involved. I *know* the people I trust aren't going to do something that's off limits, so they can't threaten that they will believably. I *want* them to push and make it difficult for me. If it's easy, I'm usually going to be bored. If I didn't trust them to do that without going too far the connection would likely fizzle pretty quickly, if it managed to exist at all.

We all come at it through different filters.


_____________________________

-- Sherri

Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity.

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RE: Your BEST "mindfuck" as a scene is ? - 1/10/2005 6:48:54 PM   
topcat


Posts: 1675
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Tidewater, VA
Status: offline 		Midear Sherri-

I have some fuzzy view that pain and fear are almost the same at some level, so while I answered with a dom filter on- I think it's as true about the edges and pushing when I am topping too-

'Mindfuck' is just about mental or emotional pain(fear? now I am lossing track!) but that for me, if it's not going to come up on an edge, it feels a little scripted and false.

And I suppose it can and is sometimes about the pain of fear or the fear of pain, too, for me...
Stay warm,
Lawrence

_____________________________

-there is no remission without blood-

(in reply to SherriA)
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RE: Your BEST "mindfuck" as a scene is ? - 1/10/2005 6:49:23 PM   
Jasmyn


Posts: 1234
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: New Zealand
Status: offline 		Lawrence

I inadvertently mindfarked a sub male at an adult club we attended one evening. I hadn't planned it, hell hadn't even negotiated hell of a lot...he was a pretty boy thinking his looks would be enough to make a woman want him by his side. Making him drop his trousers I picked up a candle burning in a jar and made told him he had to ask Me to pour hot molten wax all over his cock. He pleaded to be able to do anything else, but I was steadfast in that he must obey Me and ask for exactly that. Being a patient woman I did not mind that the hour was ticking by reminding him that I did have all night to deal with his whimpering but is that how he wanted to spend an entire evening at a sex club?

Finally he begged for Me to do just that. I didn't.

Putting the candle down on the table I picked up My drink and said no, I couldn't be bothered.

Instantly he dropped to his knees kissing My feet murmuring over and over again how indebted he was to Me that I hadn't hurt him although I could. His trust was gained.. and like the submissive in your scenario above... he later begged Me to do just that to prove he really was worthy of submission to Me.

Jasmyn

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RE: Your BEST "mindfuck" as a scene is ? - 1/10/2005 7:00:13 PM   
liljoy


Posts: 577
Joined: 3/25/2004
Status: offline 		Topcat,
Thank You this does clear it up for me. i'm not saying that i think MF play is wrong. i've found some of the ideas here pretty hot acctually. All i am saying is that i think it should be done cautiously because if You mess up You could cause damage to the relationship or to the submissive or slave.
The salt water battery scene to me is still a very BAD idea. It is in my mind unsafe on so many levels as i and others have pointed out. i see a HUGE difference in wondering if Master might burn my nipple and wondering if He's lost His mind and might go as far as killing me. Even planting the seed that He might kill me would damage me, my trust and our relationship.
Death or the threat of death is a hard limit for us.

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Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Your BEST "mindfuck" as a scene is ? - 1/10/2005 7:19:02 PM   
SherriA


Posts: 544
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: topcat

Midear Sherri-

I have some fuzzy view that pain and fear are almost the same at some level, so while I answered with a dom filter on- I think it's as true about the edges and pushing when I am topping too


Yep, I agree with that, which is why I didn't differentiate between them in my post. A fear rush is just a powerful as a pain one, at least for me.

quote:


'Mindfuck' is just about mental or emotional pain(fear? now I am lossing track!) but that for me, if it's not going to come up on an edge, it feels a little scripted and false.


Ok, here's where we differ then. Mindfuck, to me, is convincing someone that you are (or are willing to) do something that you're not really doing (or going to do). Sure, that causes distress, which I think is what you're talking about, but the distress on it's own isn't mindfuck in my lexicon. I do agree, though, that if it's all easy it does feel false. Like I said, I want the challenge, the push.

The people I play with at those edges have a damned hard time convincing me that they're going to go "too far", because I wouldn't be going there with them at all if I didn't trust them to walk the line. They cause distress - mental, physical, whatever - but that doesn't fuck with my mind, because it's what I expect and what I'm there for.


_____________________________

-- Sherri

Fighting for peace is like fucking for virginity.

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RE: Your BEST "mindfuck" as a scene is ? - 1/10/2005 7:35:33 PM   
willing2serve


Posts: 385
Joined: 4/6/2004
Status: offline 		I agree with you liljoy...even though my post prove I am totally for mind phuck in a relationship. The bottom line as with all things..... You have to know and trust who you are with.

The mind phuck that I remember having the most effect on me was having a lit candle placed inside of me. I remember thinking of how I was going to be burned and had fear raised in my inner core, but I trusted who I was with even though he gave me very little explanation. As the flame got near, I remember tensing with the thoughts of what would happen next. Maybe some of you know the art or skill of this if done correctly, but it works on the principles of a fire-eater and the flame was estinguished without me being burned at all. This Dom didnt sit back and revel that he had taken me to fear, but it was actually a very intimate moment when I gave my trust to him. So actually there are all types of mind phucks, from the light, to the intimate to the extreme.....but again, bottom line...know who is taking you to these edges and that you are being protected, your safety and well-being.

Thank you Riot for your kind words. "Willing, i love your posts. You are able to put things in ways that makes them seem reasonable and understandable". The best things we can do for ourselves is to have an open mind, I have learned so much from all of you and each opinion is valued whether agreed upon or not.


Respectfully,
Willing2serve1

(in reply to liljoy)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Your BEST "mindfuck" as a scene is ? - 1/10/2005 7:47:50 PM   
liljoy


Posts: 577
Joined: 3/25/2004
Status: offline 		ohh i can almost see you there and the reaction you must have had. Some of these posts almost have me wishing Master would do a MF on me. i need to pull myself away from this post lol i'm getting hot and have to go to work in a little while ~sigh~
quote:

ORIGINAL: willing2serve

I agree with you liljoy...even though my post prove I am totally for mind phuck in a relationship. The bottom line as with all things..... You have to know and trust who you are with.

The mind phuck that I remember having the most effect on me was having a lit candle placed inside of me. I remember thinking of how I was going to be burned and had fear raised in my inner core, but I trusted who I was with even though he gave me very little explanation. As the flame got near, I remember tensing with the thoughts of what would happen next. Maybe some of you know the art or skill of this if done correctly, but it works on the principles of a fire-eater and the flame was estinguished without me being burned at all. This Dom didnt sit back and revel that he had taken me to fear, but it was actually a very intimate moment when I gave my trust to him. So actually there are all types of mind phucks, from the light, to the intimate to the extreme.....but again, bottom line...know who is taking you to these edges and that you are being protected, your safety and well-being.

Thank you Riot for your kind words. "Willing, i love your posts. You are able to put things in ways that makes them seem reasonable and understandable". The best things we can do for ourselves is to have an open mind, I have learned so much from all of you and each opinion is valued whether agreed upon or not.


Respectfully,
Willing2serve1


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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Your BEST "mindfuck" as a scene is ? - 1/10/2005 8:05:36 PM   
Darthbetta


Posts: 314
Joined: 12/16/2004
Status: offline 		bottom line as with all things..... You have to know and trust who you are with.

Gald I'm not a Villian anymore :D


Topcat.. thanks for the back up :)

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RE: Your BEST "mindfuck" as a scene is ? - 1/10/2005 8:54:18 PM   
Suleiman


Posts: 1127
Joined: 9/9/2004
Status: offline 		I've been avoiding this discussion out of the belief that I have nothing to add to it. I don't play mind games in scene, and I don't recall any mindgames being played on me. If I trust someone, they can't really mindfuck me. If I don't trust them, I have proven quite able to remove whatever restraints are on me in order to defend myself. Thus, the MF is, for me, either a deal-breaker or a non-issue.

I do, however play mind games. In ritual. Initiatory ceremonies, to me, are a time when a person should be scared. Symbolic death and rebirth can be used to create powerful mindfucks, as can the danse macabre, or even a simple evocation. If you've called up an entity of great power - whether you believe it to stem from your own subconscious, or from the abyss of aethyr, you are afraid. This thing can consume you. Learning to move with and through this fear is the only way to remain in control of the scenario. I've been doing that sort of thing for so long, confronting a mere physical phobia is nothing.

I suppose part of the trust issue, for me, is the fact that, when I submit, I do not want to be strong. Not that sort of strength, any way. That's why I prefer to be tied up. It's not that I can not keep myself still while being played with, but that mantaining that level of self control means that I have not completely surrendered. If there is a trust issue involved with the person I am playing with, that means I have not completely surrendered, and so there is no point in being tied up, collared, or otherwise bound. I do not feel safe, I do not feel protected, and so I never reach that level of submission that I crave. I do not submit to people I do not trust implicitly. I don't get anything out of it to do so. I might as well just masturbate - it's faster, the scenario can go however I want, and I'm assured of a happy ending.

So I guess I still have nothing to add to the debate at hand, other than a specific point of view for why some folks don't do it.

~S

_____________________________

Think of my verbosity as a sort of litmus test for our relationship. I write in a manner identical to how I speak and how I think. If you can not cope with what I have written here, it is probably for the best if we go our separate ways.

(in reply to Darthbetta)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Your BEST "mindfuck" as a scene is ? - 1/10/2005 10:25:40 PM   
nella


Posts: 1243
Joined: 12/30/2004
From: Norway
Status: offline 		Suleiman, in Initiation Cermonies, and in many rituals, it is inportant to face ones fear, but ritual is one thing. a BDSM play session is another altogether.

(in reply to Suleiman)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Your BEST "mindfuck" as a scene is ? - 1/10/2005 10:38:51 PM   
topcat


Posts: 1675
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Tidewater, VA
Status: offline
quote:

in Initiation Cermonies, and in many rituals, it is inportant to face ones fear, but ritual is one thing. a BDSM play session is another altogether.


Midear Nella-

what if my work is my ritual?

Stay warm,
Lawrence

_____________________________

-there is no remission without blood-

(in reply to nella)
Profile   Post #: 60
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