RE: Your BEST "mindfuck" as a scene is ?

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stef -> RE: Your BEST "mindfuck" as a scene is ? (1/10/2005 10:45:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: topcat what if my work is my ritual? You win. ~stef

domtimothy46176 -> RE: Your BEST "mindfuck" as a scene is ? (1/11/2005 12:57:10 AM)
I think it's safe to say we all have things which can serve to make us feel. Recognizing that each of us responds differently to a given set of stimuli is terribly important. I don't believe it is ever safe to fail to ignore the possibility that someone may have an unanticipated reaction when presented with a given stimulus. It is within my power to provoke strong reactions of various types within the spectrum of my girl's emotions. Possessing that power and using it wisely are crucial to the long-term success of my relationship with my girl. Should I engage in activities that are damaging to her and/or her ability to trust me with her welfare, one can reasonably expect she will find her service to me to become less fulfilling, possibly neccessitating the termination of our relationship. quote: ORIGINAL: perverseangelic quote: ORIGINAL: domtimothy46176 Grinning at her in that patented "Evil Sadist" way and reminding her that it's only her submission that keeps her there as I torture her only seems to make it worse for her, LOL. The more I talk to her, calmly, reasonably suggesting that if she didn't want me to torture her she wouldn't serve me, that she could, in fact, walk away from my wandering hands if she really wanted to, the more agitated she becomes. By the time I stop, she's sweating from the strain and ready to collapse, needing to be held and cuddled. For some reason, I find this cruel in the bad way. I understand what you're doing/saying, but this would cause me serious mental -pain- because to me it would read as "I'm trying to taunt you into leaving me so I can get rid of you without doing the work" I -know- this isn't what you mean by it, but I had a very strong gut reaction to this. examines reaction. Feels insecure There are some specific types of behaviors that I avoid to ensure I am not undermining my girl's sense of security. There are also specific areas where she has been directed to be extremely cautious in her behavior. I think many of us have "hot button" issues which are outside of what we will accept from our dealings with others. It is of utmost importance that we recognize and be willing and able to bring these issues to those with whom we would interact. Knowing ourselves is the first step to being able to represent ourselves, our goals and our capabilities in an honest dialogue. The more we can accept our strengths and weaknesses and consciously incorporate them into our relationships, the less prone we are to inadverdantly pair ourselves with fundamentally incompatible partners. The example I gave in my original post might be indicative of a level of cruelty that makes me incompatible to a great many submissives. It is a type of interaction that helps my girl embrace certain elements of her service. Rather than making her insecure, it reminds her that when she chose to serve me she accepted that her service extended beyond the requirements of managing the household. It is also an exercise that has been very effective in teaching her to voice certain wants and desires. I can appreciate that some might react very differently to such an exercise. What I find important to remember when I'm working with my girl is that her needs are not my needs and that her reactions cannot be intuited by how I would react but must be anticipated based on my knowledge of who and what she is and desires to be. My job is to understand how she feels rather than judge how I would feel if I were in her shoes. If I maintain that detachment, it serves both our interests. Timothy

ablackwall -> RE: Your BEST "mindfuck" as a scene is ? (1/11/2005 2:52:01 PM)
Deep in the woods, the sub is stripped naked and blindfolded with hands and feet cuffed to force a prostrate position. Two shovels can be heard digging, and master begins chatting with the other shoveller ... "it's a shame, I'd hoped to keep her a bit longer than this" [;)]

Mercnbeth -> RE: Your BEST "mindfuck" as a scene is ? (1/11/2005 3:02:10 PM)
quote: The example I gave in my original post might be indicative of a level of cruelty that makes me incompatible to a great many submissives. It is a type of interaction that helps my girl embrace certain elements of her service. Rather than making her insecure, it reminds her that when she chose to serve me she accepted that her service extended beyond the requirements of managing the household. It is also an exercise that has been very effective in teaching her to voice certain wants and desires. I can appreciate that some might react very differently to such an exercise. What I find important to remember when I'm working with my girl is that her needs are not my needs and that her reactions cannot be intuited by how I would react but must be anticipated based on my knowledge of who and what she is and desires to be. My job is to understand how she feels rather than judge how I would feel if I were in her shoes. If I maintain that detachment, it serves both our interests. Timothy, Accepting the statments above from your post as genuine, how do you reconcile those thoughts with this quote from your profile? "I have no tolerance for cruelty or for those who would use others for their own gain. Life is much too precious to be debased in such a way."

Suleiman -> RE: Your BEST "mindfuck" as a scene is ? (1/11/2005 7:21:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: nella Suleiman, in Initiation Cermonies, and in many rituals, it is inportant to face ones fear, but ritual is one thing. a BDSM play session is another altogether. Is it really? How so? Are your saying that scening is more or less "real" than ritual work? It can be debated on either side. I have experienced any number of ecstatic states while hanging from the cross, and I have used many elements of sexuality in my rituals. Where is the line drawn? In my opinion, there is far more fantasy and roleplaying involved in SM than in ritual, but that is simply because of my personal opinion about social interaction, and my personal opinion regarding altered states of consciousness. I have known any number of people who claim what they do is real. I have known ritualists who say the things they see and the voices they hear are perfectly real, even though only they can see and hear these things. I have known folks in the scene who claim that what they do is real, even though all they are really doing is roleplaying a sexual fantasy with a willing volunteer. I consider both to be equally real, and equally unreal. In the case of S&M, I am constantly flabbergasted at the range of people who mutter SSC without remembering what the middle S stands for. And as for those little voices in my head - well, anyone with half a clue knows better than to take that at face value. So what was the point of your cryptic comment, Nella? Scene play is one thing, ritual is another. Both are real, both are unreal. Each has it's little initiatory secrets, it's special language, it's differing schools of thought and levels of intensity. Both can involve edge play but frequently do not. Both can involve sex, but just as often do not. Am I not being dominant for the fact that the entity I have summoned cowers before the threat of the hazel rod? Am I not submissive because the goddess I kneel before has no living avatar? Or is it that there is no ritual in sex? What's that line the wiccans use? Perfect love and perfect trust? The knowledge that what you are about to experience will change you forever, that it will terrify you and strip away your illusions? Sounds like my first trip to a dungeon. Can you find no paralells?

topcat -> RE: Your BEST "mindfuck" as a scene is ? (1/11/2005 8:22:46 PM)
M. Suliman- I rarely respond to your posts, because most often, we are in complete agreement. I'd just like to take this space to complement your lucid, lyrical style, which so often impresses me. thank you for your contributions. Stay warm, Lawrence

domtimothy46176 -> RE: Your BEST "mindfuck" as a scene is ? (1/11/2005 8:28:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth quote: The example I gave in my original post might be indicative of a level of cruelty that makes me incompatible to a great many submissives. It is a type of interaction that helps my girl embrace certain elements of her service. Rather than making her insecure, it reminds her that when she chose to serve me she accepted that her service extended beyond the requirements of managing the household. It is also an exercise that has been very effective in teaching her to voice certain wants and desires. I can appreciate that some might react very differently to such an exercise. What I find important to remember when I'm working with my girl is that her needs are not my needs and that her reactions cannot be intuited by how I would react but must be anticipated based on my knowledge of who and what she is and desires to be. My job is to understand how she feels rather than judge how I would feel if I were in her shoes. If I maintain that detachment, it serves both our interests. Timothy, Accepting the statments above from your post as genuine, how do you reconcile those thoughts with this quote from your profile? "I have no tolerance for cruelty or for those who would use others for their own gain. Life is much too precious to be debased in such a way." I reconcile it very easily. While the scenerio in my original post was perceived by at least one respondant as cruel, and might well be perceived as cruel by others, perhaps too cruel to be considered compatible, it is not considered cruelty by my girl. As I noted in the second paragraph you quoted, I am cognizant that other submissives might react differently than my girl does. That which you quoted is part of my response to one submissvie who felt that scenerio was cruel and that it would cause her to question her submission to one who engaged in that type of play. My response pointed out that while the respondant might feel one way, it wasn't indicative of how every submissive would respond. It also gave concrete information on why my girl reacts differently than the respondant feels she would react. Timothy

nella -> RE: Your BEST "mindfuck" as a scene is ? (1/12/2005 5:07:43 AM)
Suleiman what i mean is not that a BDSM secne is less real, and anything can realy put one in an extatic state or prove useful to put you in a ritual counsiouness. What i mean is that for an initiation, such enormous feelings is often nessesary or at least traditional, but to say that such emotions are nessesary to have a good BDSM relationship whit somone for if you do not it has no spark, that is find insulting. me and my Dom might stretch my limits, train in doing things i would not do, or train to be abel to take more pain, but if he treathend in any way to kill me, and if i even for a moment belived those treaths, the trust would be broken.

Suleiman -> RE: Your BEST "mindfuck" as a scene is ? (1/12/2005 1:59:21 PM)
And may I take the opportunity to return the compliment, my dear Topcat. I am always impressed with your own opinions and appreciate the clarity with which you communicate your thoughts. It is invariably a pleasure to read your posts, and once again I am prone to parallel, rather than respond to, your posts, due to your point of view so frequently seeming to agree with my own. You have, in fact, very often left me with no response other than "what he said".

Suleiman -> RE: Your BEST "mindfuck" as a scene is ? (1/12/2005 2:13:24 PM)
Ah. I think I begin to see what you are saying, Nella. You may find it helpful to break your argument into multiple points, or at least to expound a bit more on what you say. I did not say, and did not mean to imply, that there is no spark without that ecstatic rush. In fact, I am quite content in my loveplay not having that certian je ne sais quoi, while, to me, my rituals require that edge to perpetuate the flow of energy I create. The implication that play without that edge has no spark was another commentator's argument, and one I do not agree with. Now that you have elucidated a bit further on your argument, I believe that I agree with you, at least in part. There does come a point at which trust can be broken, and some times even the threat of such a breach can place an unnessesary strain on the relationship as a whole. The mindfucks stated here do require a level of fear and mistrust which, if present in me, lead me to conclude that this is not a person for me to play with. I do not play with casual acquantances. I don't even have sex with casual acquaintances. If I am going to submit to somebody, it is because I know them well and believe that I have some deeper connection with them. Hence my comment that either a mindfuck will not work, or else it becomes a deal-breaker. I do not have, within my own psyche, a middle ground of "maybe I trust you". I have also not stated that the mind games are not valid for other people. I have presented only my own point of view. I would appreciate it if those who read my posts would remain mindful of the pronouns used when I make a statement. They are there for a reason.

Mercnbeth -> RE: Your BEST "mindfuck" as a scene is ? (1/12/2005 3:00:12 PM)
quote: It also gave concrete information on why my girl reacts differently than the respondent feels she would react. Timothy, "Cruel" is a moving target. What was cruel, debasing, and too intense at the initial stage of a lifestyle relationship often becomes mundane as the couple grows. I'm trying to understand how you know absolutely the result of your "Mind Fuck"? Unless my definition differs from yours, to be a "Mind Fuck" (noted as 'MF' in future references) the 'victim' must assume the worst scenario is occurring. I'm assuming that you've never inflicted the worst case - true? If that's the case, ultimately it isn't really a 'MF'. Your partner KNOWS that no matter how you threaten the worst case really isn't happening. I'd define that knowing as Trust. If all this is true, then it isn't cruel at all, it's a scene as intense as you and your partner want it to me. I'd say some of my scenes with beth have incorporated 'MF'. On the other hand, if your partner really is unsure of you, doesn't have that trust factor, then it is cruel, debasing, and potentially dangerous. Dangerous on both an emotional and physical level. As a Master, the one variable I don't allow in a scene is doubt that I am controlling it. It doesn't matter the activity or the tool, I don't want to risk losing my slave's trust or losing my slave's life as a result of her not knowing she was involved in a 'MF'. My point is, I don't think it's possible for me to 'MF' beth with any of the scenarios sited. she would know any worst case wasn't possible. I'm kind of happy about that, and somewhat proud. When I really want to 'MF' her, I tell her I'm making her go on the rides at the top of the Stratosphere Hotel in Vegas. Just the threat gets her shaking! [image]local://upfiles/33972/CD7B1387F8864D4A88D419A28CC091D7.jpg[/image]

liljoy -> RE: Your BEST "mindfuck" as a scene is ? (1/12/2005 5:47:02 PM)
Exactly Sir!! To plant that seed a doubt that You may have lost Your mind and are treatening to do something thatYou've agreed NOT to do just doesn't seem wise to me. Now on the other hand, if it's not something You've agreed not to do it could be fun. The cutting scene for example. Cutting is not something that Master is inclined to do, but it's not something that we've agreed not to do. He could pull that one off and not do damage to my trust. A few of the other scenes posted could also be done without doing damage i think. Still it's a place that would have to be gone to with great caution. lil_joy quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth Unless my definition differs from yours, to be a "Mind Fuck" (noted as 'MF' in future references) the 'victim' must assume the worst scenario is occurring. I'm assuming that you've never inflicted the worst case - true? If that's the case, ultimately it isn't really a 'MF'. Your partner KNOWS that no matter how you threaten the worst case really isn't happening. I'd define that knowing as Trust. If all this is true, then it isn't cruel at all, it's a scene as intense as you and your partner want it to me. I'd say some of my scenes with beth have incorporated 'MF'. On the other hand, if your partner really is unsure of you, doesn't have that trust factor, then it is cruel, debasing, and potentially dangerous. Dangerous on both an emotional and physical level. As a Master, the one variable I don't allow in a scene is doubt that I am controlling it. It doesn't matter the activity or the tool, I don't want to risk losing my slave's trust or losing my slave's life as a result of her not knowing she was involved in a 'MF'. My point is, I don't think it's possible for me to 'MF' beth with any of the scenarios sited. she would know any worst case wasn't possible. I'm kind of happy about that, and somewhat proud. When I really want to 'MF' her, I tell her I'm making her go on the rides at the top of the Stratosphere Hotel in Vegas. Just the threat gets her shaking! [image]local://upfiles/33972/CD7B1387F8864D4A88D419A28CC091D7.jpg[/image] quote: My point is, I don't think it's possible for me to 'MF' beth with any of the scenarios sited. she would know any worst case wasn't possible. I'm kind of happy about that, and somewhat proud. When I really want to 'MF' her, I tell her I'm making her go on the rides at the top of the Stratosphere Hotel in Vegas. Just the threat gets her shaking!

perverseangelic -> RE: Your BEST "mindfuck" as a scene is ? (1/12/2005 6:44:15 PM)
Liljoy, you summed up -exactly- what I was trying to say. Thank you.

liljoy -> RE: Your BEST "mindfuck" as a scene is ? (1/12/2005 8:30:38 PM)
perverseangelic, you're welcome. It only took me what 12 post to finally get it said right. lol lil_joy

domtimothy46176 -> RE: Your BEST "mindfuck" as a scene is ? (1/13/2005 2:45:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth quote: It also gave concrete information on why my girl reacts differently than the respondent feels she would react. Timothy, "Cruel" is a moving target. What was cruel, debasing, and too intense at the initial stage of a lifestyle relationship often becomes mundane as the couple grows. I'm trying to understand how you know absolutely the result of your "Mind Fuck"? Unless my definition differs from yours, to be a "Mind Fuck" (noted as 'MF' in future references) the 'victim' must assume the worst scenario is occurring. I'm assuming that you've never inflicted the worst case - true? If that's the case, ultimately it isn't really a 'MF'. Your partner KNOWS that no matter how you threaten the worst case really isn't happening. I'd define that knowing as Trust. If all this is true, then it isn't cruel at all, it's a scene as intense as you and your partner want it to me. I'd say some of my scenes with beth have incorporated 'MF'. On the other hand, if your partner really is unsure of you, doesn't have that trust factor, then it is cruel, debasing, and potentially dangerous. Dangerous on both an emotional and physical level. As a Master, the one variable I don't allow in a scene is doubt that I am controlling it. It doesn't matter the activity or the tool, I don't want to risk losing my slave's trust or losing my slave's life as a result of her not knowing she was involved in a 'MF'. My point is, I don't think it's possible for me to 'MF' beth with any of the scenarios sited. she would know any worst case wasn't possible. I'm kind of happy about that, and somewhat proud. When I really want to 'MF' her, I tell her I'm making her go on the rides at the top of the Stratosphere Hotel in Vegas. Just the threat gets her shaking! [image]local://upfiles/33972/CD7B1387F8864D4A88D419A28CC091D7.jpg[/image] Perhaps our definitions of what constutues a mindfuck differ. In my OP, I described putting my girl in a position where she wanted to run away and "couldn't" because of her obligation to serve me. I induced additional stress by teasing her by reminding her that it was "only" her service to me that held her in place while I tortured her. I define it as a mindfuck because it pits her instinctual reaction, the need to escape, against her need to serve. One poster found the idea to be cruel. For her it might be, to my girl it is not, at least at this point and so for me it isn't cruelty. If my girl, in the "worst case" scenerio, actually gave in to the need to escape her torment and stepped out of my reach, it wouldn't end her service and she knows it. There is no fear that her potential failure to stand still and endure will have dire results. The tension is merely that of competing internal imperatives. Perhaps that clarifies what I was saying. Timothy

nella -> RE: Your BEST "mindfuck" as a scene is ? (1/13/2005 2:55:45 AM)
Suleiman i agree, my first statement was dificult to understand. i think we agree whit one another now. domtimothy46176, i do belive your games to be quite okey, it creates tension but perhaps of a good kind. i have protested against those that treathen the submissive`s life. It is like Mark and beth said, if the sub belive you, then you will kill her, then there is littel or no trust, and if the sub do not belive you then the MF do not realy work. That is not to say you can not have an interesting play. Besides, this is only my humble opinion.

Samizdat -> RE: Your BEST "mindfuck" as a scene is ? (1/13/2005 4:01:59 PM)
Kindly, where would one find here a more serious, and ssc discussion of S&m? Because, my friend, the opening post of this thread is comic book material, not serious practitionership.

perverseangelic -> RE: Your BEST "mindfuck" as a scene is ? (1/13/2005 4:39:00 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Samizdat Kindly, where would one find here a more serious, and ssc discussion of S&m? Because, my friend, the opening post of this thread is comic book material, not serious practitionership. (just a note, not everyone on here does SSC [:)] )

nella -> RE: Your BEST "mindfuck" as a scene is ? (1/13/2005 4:59:15 PM)
What is SSC?

Mercnbeth -> RE: Your BEST "mindfuck" as a scene is ? (1/13/2005 5:29:29 PM)
SSC - "Safe Sane Consensual" There is also RACK - "Risk Aware Consensual Kink"

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