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1) If the submissive really beleived even for a lil while that the Dominant would really kill the submissive.

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2) If the Dominant took the submissives deepest fears and used those as a mind fuck.

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3) Using a traumatic eent that the submissie has lived through as a mindfuck.

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ORIGINAL: topcat

Midear 'Joy-

as with pain, everyone has a different 'threshold of terror'- a place where 'afraid' becomes 'terrified', and, like a pain threshold, it shifts with time and circumstance.

Some are terrified easily- some are not even terrified by death and some can suspend disbelief easily enough that they can reach that edge while still knowing that, at some level, that they are safe.

Well i can't argue this point but i would wonder about anyone that doesn't fear death. We are kinda wired to survive. There have been many many cases of people doing amazing things to survive.

i'd be inclined to worry about someone that would willingly and without fear consent to the possability of being killed by a Dominant. i'd have to ask why? i'd worry about self esteem issues with that submissive.



I once did, what was for me, a simple, off-the-cuff scene, but, without my realizing it, the woman I was working with realised that this would be, could be, a good place to get rid of a body, and that, despite having taken every precaution, it still could happen.

It was, for her, a great scene- she later described it as one of the hottest she had ever done- and this was a very experianced edge player. I could tell it was working for her- but I didn't realize, even when she mentioned it, that she was really thinking that I might kill her.

i think i remember You posting about this. i recall You didn't make the threat. It seemed to me that it was a mindfuck she kinda did to herself lol.



This I have done- 'anything you say can be used against you' <g>. Sometimes, it is no more than the suggestion that I might, in fact, do something like that- or it might be doing fireplay with someone who is really, really scared of fire. Consider this- if he can take you to theat thing you fear most of all, and make it safe, make it OK-

isn't that a wonderful thing?


There is also the risk that she could become more afraid and hate You for the trauma You put her through. It's a caulculated risk like everything we do. It's bigger than most of our risks.



Now this is very edgey- even by my thinking! But I have done it, and it has been good, and for the same reasons as the above. What if you can go there, and come back, and this time, make it OK?

ahh the reason i'e been told that some rape surviors like rape play. Unfortunatly i am unable to wrap my mind around this nor can most other survivors that i've spoken with. Yes this is edgy. i'd put it as edgy as say breathplay.
Sure the submissive could come through it in better shape but she could aslo be more damaged than before.

i trust Master with everything i am. IF He were to take me to the place of fearing that i'd be raped again. i don't think i could ever trust or forgive Him.

Master knows that i almost didn't survive my rape not so much physically but emotionally. i can't imagine that He would take me emotionally to that place again.

If He did i can't imagine anything that He could say to make up for it. It would be so much bigger than i mislayed strike of a whip or flogger.

There are some betrayals that cannot be borne, some tresspasses that will not be forgiven. But saying that a single 'mindfuck' will destroy trust either means that ones trust is a fleeting thing- or very poorly placed.

Stay warm,
Lawrence

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Do You go into any other kind of scene without looking at and planning for things that could go ary? Should this kind of scene be any different?

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Either I am very good- or very lucky- but I have never destroyed trust by taking someone to the edge. And part of the skillset that a dominant must have is the ability to know how far to go, and one of the skills a submissive must have is to be able to be 'open' enough to be read. -TOP

THANKYOU !
Took the words right out of my mouth.

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ORIGINAL: ShadeDiva

As someone that enjoys mind fucks from both sides of the power equation - I think I can say that you aren't playing with someone's trust.

It's sort of like the love of being scared, the thrill, the rush of danger where there IS no danger at all.

We as humans manifest this thrill-seeking danger-chasing rush when we allow ourselves to get on a really killer roller coaster, when we drive fast, when we allow ourselves to get scared by a scary movie, etc.

We *trust* we will survive the experience. We dabble with the concept that we might not when we allow those kinds of experiences to affect us.

Mindfucks are the same exact thing.

They aren't something that will break trust - because it never is a reality. Thus the reason they are called mindfucks. the submissive suspends belief for a time that their dominant would never ever ever do such a thing, much like when one views a scary movie, we suspend the belief that movies and the subject matter in movies can't harm us. Like the Ring for example. Or like how many of us REALLY believed Jason existed? Did Jason flicks scare us or unnerve us a teeny tad when say you are out in the woods and thinking about having sex? I know it did for me and a LOT of us kids, LOL! But did we REALLY believe ol Jason was out there? No.

Some folks don't like edge play for whatever reasons. And that's okay.

But if you don't understand a type of edge play and don't practice that type of edge play then chances are you are trying to comprehend something on a linear level that in some cases, is just not linear.

The concept that mindfucks that are done between two people that actually trust each other and the dominant has a half bit of a clue what they are doing and the submissive is well grounded - and both have an open communication to the level and exteent that allows such a type of edge play to occur, aren't likely to ever have their trust damaged or *played with* in a neagtive sense of the word.

The REAL danger comes from when someone THINKS they know what the fuck they are doing and what road they are traveling down, and they THINK they have a good foundation of trust built and they THINK they have good communication and good grounding, and they *don't*. Or they simply don't use common sense and aren't paying attention or simply do not give a flying fuck.

There is a world of difference between someone like say Lawrence or Suz doing an elaborate hardcore way-beyond-the-edge mindfuck and someone trying to do the same thing that has little or no real life experience, or simply doesn't have the skill to do so, and hasn't really worked at getting the relationship to a point where such an activity isn't going to have a horrid ending. WORLD of difference.

JMO.

~ShadeDiva

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ORIGINAL: liljoy

ShadeDiva,
i'm so glad You popped in here and posted. You have a way of explaining things that makes it easier for me to understand.
NOW i at least kinda understand what Topcat was trying to say. Not to take anything away from Him. i just wasn't getting it

thanks
lil_joy

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ORIGINAL: perverseangelic
Kinda like play rape, maybe? You're upholding the illusion of non-consent, or the illusion of "breaking trust"?