RE: Where are the "High Paying Manufacturing Jobs" that Clinton promised us if "NAFTA" passed?

RE: Where are the "High Paying Manufacturing Jobs" that Clinton promised us if "NAFTA" passed? (Full Version)

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popeye1250 -> RE: Where are the "High Paying Manufacturing Jobs" that Clinton promised us if "NAFTA" passed? (10/5/2006 4:29:51 PM)
The housing market is softening in the Northeast, parts of Florida and California especially because those areas Real Estate prices went up far beyond the rest of the country. Why pay $950k for a 3 b/r in Calif when you can get one here in Myrtle Beach for $200-$250k? And probably bigger too.

Sinergy -> RE: Where are the "High Paying Manufacturing Jobs" that Clinton promised us if "NAFTA" passed? (10/5/2006 4:39:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave Well at least Hamburgers are not weapons of mass destruction. Well done gorgeous George W. I disagree. Do you know how much fat and cholesterol is in a McDonald's hamburger? Do you have any idea how many American's eat them? They are killing mass quantities of Americans, one myocardial infarction at a time. Just me, could be wrong, but there you go. Sinergy

Sinergy -> RE: Where are the "High Paying Manufacturing Jobs" that Clinton promised us if "NAFTA" passed? (10/5/2006 4:42:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 The housing market is softening in the Northeast, parts of Florida and California especially because those areas Real Estate prices went up far beyond the rest of the country. Why pay $950k for a 3 b/r in Calif when you can get one here in Myrtle Beach for $200-$250k? And probably bigger too. Hello A/all, Because I can make several hundred thousand dollars a year working in the harbor in California, whereas I am not sure how the job market looks in Myrtle Beach, but I dont recall ever seeing any high paying computer jobs posted down there on Monster.Com. There is a direct correlation to how much you earn and how much your house costs. Just me, could be wrong, but there you go. Sinergy

popeye1250 -> RE: Where are the "High Paying Manufacturing Jobs" that Clinton promised us if "NAFTA" passed? (10/5/2006 5:14:48 PM)
Sinergy, everyone makes several hundred thousands of dollars out there?

UtopianRanger -> RE: Where are the "High Paying Manufacturing Jobs" that Clinton promised us if "NAFTA" passed? (10/5/2006 5:34:45 PM)
I just read your intitial post Popeye and won't have time to read the thread till late tonight. But since you have mentioned jobs and NAFTA, I wanted to draw attention to a bill before congress right now. http://www.thomas.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c109:H.CON.RES.487: I might add that the authors tied to this bill are about the only ones in congress who put the welfare of Americans before that of outsourcing and big business. Please call your congressperson and ask them to support this amidst the quagmire. - R

LTRsubNW -> RE: Where are the "High Paying Manufacturing Jobs" that Clinton promised us if "NAFTA" passed? (10/5/2006 5:39:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 OK, so in other words we're going to be perpetually lied to by our own govt. and there's nothing we can do about it? Is that what you're saying? You always seem to look for the extreme. It's this simple...jobs are going to leave this country if we can't produce the products that those jobs cause to happen, at a price that is at minimum equal to or less than those products can be produced elsewhere. It's really pretty simple math. If you want to argue about it...do it from a clean perspective. Throw away all the Tupperware that you own (because since 1987, 82% of all Tupperware was produced in Asian countries). Oh, and...approx. 2 years ago they closed all their American production facilities and now produce all of their products in either Mexico or China (big stuff is produced in Mexico due to shipping, little stuff in China). Make sure that you order ONLY Champion spark plugs...because they're the only ones produced in the United States, and have been since 1996. (And, by the way...your car DOESN'T have Champion spark plugs, nor has any car manufactured in the United States since 1994). Absolutely don't buy gas, because barely 22% of that is produced in the United States...and most of that goes to the Government. NEVER buy apples (Washington State, which produces 71% of the nations production, ships 76% of it's product to Japan and China)...43% of what you buy are grown outside the United States. Jeans...most come from India. That T-Shirt you wear in your photo...if you have even 5 T-Shirts in your collection...exactly 0% came from American Mills. If you have a dress shirt...yep...India. Your shoes...those are from Brazil. If you want more...those will come from Brazil (or Mexico, or China) as well. So...if you feel the need to argue that the world is going to Hell in a handbasket, and that it's the fault of Democrats, Republicans, politicians in general, or even your current city council...be aware...the world is changing...where we produce products that are cost effective or desirable (currently software, airplanes...and as todays news would indicate...coffee stands), we'll do well...and where we don't, we won't...and the rest of the world stands ready to eat our lunch. And so many, like yourself, are convinced enough to spend abundant effort to convince others of the "unfairness of it all".... It ain't unfair Popeye...it ain't even a rotten deal. It's simply the deal we've got and it ain't going away anytime soon. The rules have changed, and the only way to beat the system is to do a better job than the other guy. (And those that don't get that....won't get a seat at the table).

Chaingang -> RE: Where are the "High Paying Manufacturing Jobs" that Clinton promised us if "NAFTA" passed? (10/5/2006 5:49:26 PM)
LTRsubNW: The simplest reply is that it was not always thus. And it can be turned around via regulation and taxes. I don't believe we are now at the mercy of global forces beyond our control. Gee, if that were true we might as well throw out that whole democratic republic thing since we are in the economic grip of communists who are setting our prices. What a lot of crap.

LTRsubNW -> RE: Where are the "High Paying Manufacturing Jobs" that Clinton promised us if "NAFTA" passed? (10/5/2006 5:52:12 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Chaingang LTRsubNW: The simplest reply is that it was not always thus. And it can be turned around via regulation and taxes. I don't believe we are now at the mercy of global forces beyond our control. Gee, if that were true we might as well throw out that whole democratic republic thing since we are in the economic grip of communists who are setting our prices. What a lot of crap. The United States is no longer an island. It hasn't been for a long time. (And you're right..."it was not always thus") . For the record, no one suggested that these forces are beyond our control. What I did suggest, however was that, we're no longer the only ones with a seat at the table, the table is getting larger, and anyone who wants to retain their seat needs to be aware, with absolute clarity that as long as we spend our time at the table arguing that "those bastards in (pick a country) are stealing our jobs", we're going watch those very bastards laugh all the way to the bank (cashing our checks). Because we're buying their stuff. When we either stop buying their stuff, or find a way to produce "their stuff" for less (so our neighbors buy our stuff instead of their stuff...i.e., so we remain in business), things will change. Knowing how few things in any American home are produced with American labor, I suspect that isn't going to happen anytime soon. So, what are the options we have left then? Quit bitching about how rotten the deal is, and change the deal. Americans have done it before, multiple times...every minute we spend debating how shitty the deal is, is another minute "they" can gain advantage. If you (or anyone else) want(s) them to win...keep convincing yourself we're getting fucked. I, for one, intend to win.

nefertari -> RE: Where are the "High Paying Manufacturing Jobs" that Clinton promised us if "NAFTA" passed? (10/5/2006 6:37:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: servantforuse Individual home ownership in the U S is also at an all time high. The people buying these homes aren't flipping burgers. There are many very good jobs out there. And the foreclosure rate is at an all time high, as well. Hmmm... With the real estate market declining and home values dropping (especially those in areas with a high foreclosure rate, like Ohio where I live) there is real concern among the experts regarding our economy. Check out Forbes.

popeye1250 -> RE: Where are the "High Paying Manufacturing Jobs" that Clinton promised us if "NAFTA" passed? (10/5/2006 7:35:48 PM)
LTRsub, I already "have my place at the table." I make more being retired than a lot of people with degrees do.(Unfortunately do to the trade practices of the last 20 years.) My point is that The People of this country should be running it not Big Corporations with absolutely no loyalty to America. They all want to make stuff overseas but every single one of them wants a piece of our market. I say make it overseas but if you do, sell it there. This is one reason that we need to have a "Putsch" in our govt. Vote EVERYONE out! Look at that fat P.O.S. Ted Kennedy. FOURTY FOUR YEARS IN OFFICE! He's had his place at the table all his life but not from anything he's done! He stabbed all his constituants in the back with "NAFTA" too! That fat P.O.S.!

ownedgirlie -> RE: Where are the "High Paying Manufacturing Jobs" that Clinton promised us if "NAFTA" passed? (10/5/2006 8:19:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 Sinergy, everyone makes several hundred thousands of dollars out there? According to US Census, the median income in California (as of 2005) was less than $100,000. Income and cost of housing really depends on where in California someone lives. I bought a small but nice home on 1/4 an acre in the Sierra Foothills for what would have bought me a patch of dirt in the Bay Area. Then again, I took a 30% cut in salary when I moved up here as well. Not all of California is LA, Bay Area, or ocean front. The Central Valley has much more affordable housing, yet much lower income, too. Not all housing here is $950,000. Edited to add Census link, because I forgot: http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/medincsizeandstate.html

juliaoceania -> RE: Where are the "High Paying Manufacturing Jobs" that Clinton promised us if "NAFTA" passed? (10/5/2006 8:34:05 PM)
Yes owned, my sister has a lovely 3 bedroom home on 5 arces in the foothills valued at just slightly over 300k, and it is about 5 years old and custom built

meatcleaver -> RE: Where are the "High Paying Manufacturing Jobs" that Clinton promised us if "NAFTA" passed? (10/5/2006 11:39:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Chaingang quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver The market might well need some reforms but reform doesn't mean that western economies need to be fossilized into the way the economy worked in the 20th century. "Hmm. Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter." Care to flesh out the kinds of reforms you have in mind? First let me point out, that many countries now have laws where people can be tried for terrorist acts perputrated in other countries so what I am proposing should not be beyond the wit of legislators. While governments shouldn't stand in the way of moving capital, governments ought to legislate to curb the psychopathic tendencies of multinational corporations and hold CEOs and board members to account to stop exploitation of peoples in whatever country and land despolation and environmental damage. Also governments should pursue green policies, this will mean that most goods are made closer to home and curb exploitation in the third world and allow third world economies to develop without western exploitation. However, this means a change of life style and more expensive exotic products but shouldn't impact on the quality of life but improve it. Pursuing green policies is something that needs to be done anyway.

Chaingang -> RE: Where are the "High Paying Manufacturing Jobs" that Clinton promised us if "NAFTA" passed? (10/6/2006 12:28:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver While governments shouldn't stand in the way of moving capital, governments ought to legislate to curb the psychopathic tendencies of multinational corporations and hold CEOs and board members to account to stop exploitation of peoples in whatever country and land despolation and environmental damage. Also governments should pursue green policies, this will mean that most goods are made closer to home and curb exploitation in the third world and allow third world economies to develop without western exploitation. However, this means a change of life style and more expensive exotic products but shouldn't impact on the quality of life but improve it. Pursuing green policies is something that needs to be done anyway. Looks good at first glance. Now, how about that newsletter? We're on the same track here in actuality.

seeksfemslave -> RE: Where are the "High Paying Manufacturing Jobs" that Clinton promised us if "NAFTA" passed? (10/6/2006 12:29:00 AM)
I believe there is a problem of jobs going from high wage to low wage economies, and that problem is going to get worse ! As usual it is the lower skilled who suffer first and most. A theoretical remedy, from about 1968 was for currencies to fluctuate in value one to another, but countries are savvy to this and so in China, where the banking system is controlled by the body politic, what they do is tie their currency to the dollar, hence no smoothing affect possible. The theoretical solution is for some form of international control of the value of money, which will NEVER happen and would be a practical disaster if it did. Anyway Americans what you are experiencing is the Free Enterprise system working well. Not nice is it. lol Someone mentioned median income, thats the one in the middle so....... Say 10K people earn 20k ,50 earn 50k and 10 earn 100k Then the median is then 50K The average is... eerr... not much more than 20K.

UtopianRanger -> RE: Where are the "High Paying Manufacturing Jobs" that Clinton promised us if "NAFTA" passed? (10/6/2006 3:31:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: servantforuse The unemployment rate in this Country is about 4.7%. The lowest in the Countries history. The stock market is at an all time high. It seems to me the economy is doing pretty well. I assume you are speaking with regard to the Dow? The Dow Jones is not the stock market, my friend {A misconception held by many} ; it’s an index of thirty stocks where the losers are supplanted by winners. The other factor you might want to consider when assessing the Dow is : Go back to the previous all time highs in 2000 -2001 and then look at how much the dollar has depreciated against other currencies since then – It’s about forty percent. So, if the dollar has depreciated forty percent since previous all times highs, a fair assessment would be to say that the Dow is actually at about 6500 -7000 in realistic terms when you consider the correction in currency depreciation. Also, If you truly want to evaluate the market on your terms, I suggest you at least look at a much broader index like the NASDAQ, S&P or Wilshire5000. All three of those index’s are WELL below their all time highs in 2000. The NASDAQ alone closed yesterday at below fifty percent of its all time high of over 5000 in March of 2000 The long term trend for the market is down. quote: Individual home ownership in the U S is also at an all time high. The people buying these homes aren't flipping burgers. There are many very good jobs out there. Yes....and I heard Krugman make the prediction about three weeks ago on NPR that in the next thirty months, we will see largest amount of mass mortgage defaults in the history of this country. If Vegas were offering odds on Krugman's prediction, I'd bet as high as 15: 1 that he will be correct. The reason why homeownership is at all time highs is they’ve made it so ridiculously easy to borrow money. They are lending money to people who cannot possibly pay it back. And they know it. The mortgage lending industry is so desperate right now that they are offering forty-year mortgages to people in their fifties – If that doesn’t tell you how bad things are… I don’t know what will. Listen to all their spurios radio ads ; they'll just about lend money to dead people. - R

UtopianRanger -> RE: Where are the "High Paying Manufacturing Jobs" that Clinton promised us if "NAFTA" passed? (10/6/2006 3:41:39 AM)
quote: The numbers are totally wonky. Bush has made sure that numbers would go his way. They literally changed how those percentages were calculated a few years ago to favor the corruption of this administration. Where have you been for 5 years? Heh....Have you ever heard of the term ''Voodoo economics''? Someone coined that term for a very good reason. [;)] - R

Kedicat -> RE: Where are the "High Paying Manufacturing Jobs" that Clinton promised us if "NAFTA" passed? (10/6/2006 4:02:04 AM)
They are in the elected government. Manufacturing BULLSHIT

UtopianRanger -> RE: Where are the "High Paying Manufacturing Jobs" that Clinton promised us if "NAFTA" passed? (10/6/2006 4:25:23 AM)
quote: A global economy has both good and bad points; it enables others around the world to have a better life. In theory yes....but that is not the reality. The Mexican people -- especially those in rural economic industries --- have paid a horrendous price under NAFTA / globalism. And the Chinese still serve their masters { any way you look at it} under a strict one-party-totalitarian-oligarchy - The average citizen might get to use a cell phone now and then or play a video game, but they are still slaves. I guess you might be able to make a case that the average person from India might be doing a tad bit better, but I'd like to see the numbers before I totally agree. quote: What would happen if you took a country, one that had pretty much every natural resource needed to survive, and closed its borders, and all of the economy, beginning to end, was kept in country? Could a high standard of living be maintained? You've just asked the magik question. It's the question that the elites asked in ''Think Tanks'' many moons ago but didn't like the answer. Just my opinion.... If the scenario you have posed were to happen in America, the logical eventual outcome would be that the gap between the masters and subjects would shrink - And the masters know that better than you, I or anyone. That is definitely one of the reasons behind globalism. Globalism is the only way to make the gap larger between the masters and the subjects. - R

Level -> RE: Where are the "High Paying Manufacturing Jobs" that Clinton promised us if "NAFTA" passed? (10/6/2006 4:39:18 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger quote: What would happen if you took a country, one that had pretty much every natural resource needed to survive, and closed its borders, and all of the economy, beginning to end, was kept in country? Could a high standard of living be maintained? You've just asked the magik question. It's the question that the elites asked in ''Think Tanks'' many moons ago but didn't like the answer. Just my opinion.... If the scenario you have posed were to happen in America, the logical eventual outcome would be that the gap between the masters and subjects would shrink - And the masters know that better than you, I or anyone. That is definitely one of the reasons behind globalism. Globalism is the only way to make the gap larger between the masters and the subjects. - R Good morning, R. I hope you'll check back in on this.... I'm going to take that scenario a bit farther, but don't have time now lol. I'll try to come back to it this evening, or this weekend at the latest. I might start a new thread on it, so's not to hijack this one.

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