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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

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ORIGINAL: MasterKalif

NorthernGent, good topic as always....in any case, it is true this crazy fascination with guns is the fear of "protection" and so forth....which I can understand as I got robbed about two years ago, and the police were never able to help me out, they even refused to take finger prints....the cops in the US in my opinion are good for just being a pain in the "kebaba", like pulling me over for going a bit over the speed limit....

MK, we have exactly the same here. High rates of robbery, little perceived police protection. We tend to see robbery as simply one of life's pain in the arse things that just isn't worth shooting someone.

I think it is a cultural thing that is ingrained, as it is in the constitution, they see it as a right, which in my opinion makes little sense....sure is it fun to own a gun? probably....I want to take shooting lessons someday, would be fun. But the tragedy of the thing is that a thief can find a gun in your house and use it against you....or the family's children could find it and go on a killing spree or kill someone accidentally. I do worry if my neighbors own a gun, because I wouldn't trust them with one. Luckily I live in an apt complex, so I doubt that to be the case.

Definitely cultural, I can't think of another country that holds guns in such high esteem but then maybe there are some in South America?

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I cannot help but suspect that the best explanation for the absence of the Second Amendment from the legal consciousness of the elite bar, including that component found in the legal academy, [28] is derived from a mixture of sheer opposition to the idea of private ownership of guns and the perhaps subconscious fear that altogether plausible, perhaps even "winning," interpretations of the Second Amendment would present real hurdles to those of us supporting prohibitory regulation. Thus the title of this essay --The Embarrassing Second Amendment -- for I want to suggest that the Amendment may be profoundly embarrassing to many who both support such regulation and view themselves as committed to zealous adherence to the Bill of Rights (such as most members of the ACLU). Indeed, one sometimes discovers members of the NRA who are equally committed members of the ACLU, differing with the latter only on the issue of the Second Amendment but otherwise genuinely sharing the libertarian viewpoint of the ACLU.

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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

On your reducing crime point, does it not differ from state to state i.e. if you took guns away from a hunting area in the wilds somewhere then it would make no difference but what if you took guns away from New York or Chicago - would it make a difference then?

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ORIGINAL: CrappyDom

NG,

It isn't guns that cause violence it is economic conditions.

I would not dispute this at all in fact, in general, I couldn't agree more. My question wasn't really around the rights or wrongs but more about why is it so important?

As for my interest in guns, it is many fold.  I enjoy the challenge of target shooting.  Historically, many guns have long storied histories.  I have a rifle built by Westinghouse in WWI for the Russian Czar that was used by the Russians when they invaded Finland and was caputured by the Finns and rebuilt by SAKO a world class factory and put in war reserve by Finland for decades and outshoots almost every other gun I own.  Kind a cool eh?

I like the mechanical aspect of firearms as well, I find machineguns to be as interesting as a single shot rifle, one is the most complicated, the other is the most simple.

Lastly, and in my opinion,most important, is that the First Amendment is the best protection for our freedoms until the day Bush puts a tank in front of the NYT and then the Second Amendment becomes the best protection.  It is a final desperate measure but this is after all a country By and for the people!

The last sentence speaks volumes. It is a citizens right. I'm still not fully getting it though. Every people in the world believes their rights should be fought for tooth and nail. The difference is, most places don't see owning a gun as one of these rights that are a matter of life and death. I appreciate it is a hobby of yours but why is it a right that means so much? I'll give you an example of what I'm trying to say, if our Prime Minister was tapping phones or locking people without a trial then we would be seriously pissed off, these two things would get us off our arses and we'd be seriously protesting about them - from a British perspective these are far, far more important. Would you say people consider the right to own a gun more important than the right not to have your phone tapped or the right to be innocent until proven guilty?

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ORIGINAL: CrappyDom

Meatcleaver,

Most Western countries allow widespread gun ownership, they just restrict it to the wealthy.  In addition, how do you account for nations like Switzerland and Finland that have widespread gun ownership of everything including machineguns? 

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ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Some certain Brits on this board possess a highly unattractive mix of haughty superiority, and not knowing how to mind their own fucking business.

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ORIGINAL: caitlyn

You guys are looking for a simple answer, and you just aren't going to get one. There are many reasons people in the United States own guns. Some have to do with rights, some with likes, and some with needs ... and any combination of those factors.
 
Even from Americans, you won't find complete agreement on the reasons. I got a carry permit right after my 18th birthday, and I assure you, being able to protect myself from the government had nothing to do with why I got one, or why I carry a handgun ... and yet others here mention that as their primary reason.
 
Then again, as soon as it gets to statements like "love affair with guns", it becomes pretty obvious that nobody was really looking for an answer in the first place. I'm starting to come to a conclusion based on these threads, that I really didn't want to be the case ... but it's getting hard to ignore at this point.
 
Some certain Brits on this board possess a highly unattractive mix of haughty superiority, and not knowing how to mind their own fucking business.

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ORIGINAL: ToGiveDivine

Another reason the 2nd Amendment was added to the Constitution was to provide a way for the people to protect themselves from the government (our government).

We've never used this right, but the 13 Original Colonies were were sceptical of a Federal Government - since every "Federal" government in history has abused it's power in one way or another, I don't think they were too far off base.

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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Maybe this gets to the crux of the issue, a deep mistrust of central Government and the right to play by the people's laws (rather than the Governments) = owning a gun becomes a symbol of the people's laws.

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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

What is the fascination with guns in the US?

Now I know it's in the constituion but wasn't that written in 1776 when there was about 826 people living in the US and the arms referred to were flintlock muskets that required about 13 steps to fire - in other words, by the time it was fired you could have swerved the thing. These things weren't exactly .70mm hand howitzers with an infra red scope and armour-piercing bullets.

If the answer is that Americans needed to arm themselves 225 years ago in a war with Britain don't worry about it, there's no way we're going to pull that shit again, we can't even run a bath anymore let alone a military campaign.

Surely it would be better to have a pub on every corner rather than a gun shop? After all, if you want filling with shots, better to be vodka than bullets. Or even swap licencing laws so we can get a beer after 12 at night but you can't get a gun after 12 night - might save a few lives.

So what is the attraction of owning guns?

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ORIGINAL: ToGiveDivine

Nah,  I still think it's because we like to shoot "things"  {maniacal laughing}

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ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Oh, whatever NorthernGent ... last week is was our healthcare system ... next week it will be something new ... you are pretty much endless and transparent.
 
The problem is ... how are we supposed to take the advice of you Euros ... when you send things like this our way.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvHjMV8mPis

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ORIGINAL: meatcleaver



Switzerland and Finland have militia armies where the whole citizenry can be called to arms so people hold military guns in their houses.

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ORIGINAL: sissifytoserve

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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

What is the fascination with guns in the US?

Now I know it's in the constituion but wasn't that written in 1776 when there was about 826 people living in the US and the arms referred to were flintlock muskets that required about 13 steps to fire - in other words, by the time it was fired you could have swerved the thing. These things weren't exactly .70mm hand howitzers with an infra red scope and armour-piercing bullets.

If the answer is that Americans needed to arm themselves 225 years ago in a war with Britain don't worry about it, there's no way we're going to pull that shit again, we can't even run a bath anymore let alone a military campaign.

Surely it would be better to have a pub on every corner rather than a gun shop? After all, if you want filling with shots, better to be vodka than bullets. Or even swap licencing laws so we can get a beer after 12 at night but you can't get a gun after 12 night - might save a few lives.

So what is the attraction of owning guns?

SIMPLE.

Defense from a Tyrannical government...if need be.

AND....In case an invading Army tries to pull some shit.

I think every law-Abiding American should own one.

Criminals obviously..should not.

And for those people who say you shouldn't be allowed a machine gun.....people were
allowed to own a CANNON (if you could actually afford one) back in the 1800s.

We either have a 2nd Amendment of the Constitution or we don't.

History shows that when GOVERNMENTS disarm their populations...GENOCIDE ensues.

Pol Pot....Hitler, Stalin, Mao...et al.

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ORIGINAL: Aileen68

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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent


So what is the attraction of owning guns?

Protection.  I live in an area that has no police force.  We rely on the state police to patrol and respond to calls.  The average response time is about fifteen minutes (they patrol a large area).  Fifteen minutes is a long time to wait if someone or some animal is trying to enter my house.

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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

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ORIGINAL: sissifytoserve

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ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

What is the fascination with guns in the US?

Now I know it's in the constituion but wasn't that written in 1776 when there was about 826 people living in the US and the arms referred to were flintlock muskets that required about 13 steps to fire - in other words, by the time it was fired you could have swerved the thing. These things weren't exactly .70mm hand howitzers with an infra red scope and armour-piercing bullets.

If the answer is that Americans needed to arm themselves 225 years ago in a war with Britain don't worry about it, there's no way we're going to pull that shit again, we can't even run a bath anymore let alone a military campaign.

Surely it would be better to have a pub on every corner rather than a gun shop? After all, if you want filling with shots, better to be vodka than bullets. Or even swap licencing laws so we can get a beer after 12 at night but you can't get a gun after 12 night - might save a few lives.

So what is the attraction of owning guns?

SIMPLE.

Defense from a Tyrannical government...if need be.

AND....In case an invading Army tries to pull some shit.

I think every law-Abiding American should own one.

Criminals obviously..should not.

And for those people who say you shouldn't be allowed a machine gun.....people were
allowed to own a CANNON (if you could actually afford one) back in the 1800s.

We either have a 2nd Amendment of the Constitution or we don't.

History shows that when GOVERNMENTS disarm their populations...GENOCIDE ensues.

Pol Pot....Hitler, Stalin, Mao...et al.

sissify, I see your point with Hitler and Stalin but these are the exceptions to the rule. What about today's European Governments? Yes, there is a certain level of corruption and you would have to be blind to say they are acting in our interests but that's our fault because we're voting for them and standing by while they get away with it. Owning a gun is not the solution. The solution is to elect the right people to run our country. The Government are just an extension of us. They're not a mythical set of beings who exist in a vacuum. We can replace them with people who genuinely care about running the show for all of the people.