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RE: submissive vs slave - 2/2/2005 9:34:34 AM   
MasterJWK


Posts: 3
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
I am the One who made the comment. Reading some of these replies make my head spin abit. Then some are rather good.

The person who asked the original question has issues submitting or serving period. Owned unowned she will never submit to a Dom until she is free from other relationships.

The reply that still has me rolling on the ground is the one from Taggard.

Quote:

"Again, and for the twentieth time, I don't care what people call themselves behind closed doors. What I would love to see happen is a dissapearance of the "submissive vs slave" questions posed by the n00b of the week. It won't dissapear by people saying things like "it can only be defined by the people in the relationship." It could dissapear if there was a comprehensive and complete reference work that once and for all defined these terms in clear and objective terms, and that reference work was one of the first things shown to people entering the lifestyle."




My friend what you do in your home is up to you but dont be belittling the nOObies in this lifestyle.

I think you would do well in politics dictating how you would like to have the people running around doing as the high government says. LOL. Have to laugh.

This lifestyle does not need rules maybe some guidance but every relationship is unique and as much as people like Taggard might not like that their definitions will be as they wish.

Anyway lil hope you find your answer here as you sure did not look to the one you should have been for guidance.

If I pissed anyone off.....well it happens. I do not wish to get into a matching of wit with anyone as I have no time for that.

My opinion. My right

Master JWK

(in reply to ProtagonistLily)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: submissive vs slave - 2/2/2005 9:54:36 AM   
TallDarkAndWitty


Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJWK

I am the One who made the comment.


Neo...is that you??? *laughing*

quote:


The reply that still has me rolling on the ground is the one from Taggard.

Quote:

"Again, and for the twentieth time, I don't care what people call themselves behind closed doors. What I would love to see happen is a dissapearance of the "submissive vs slave" questions posed by the n00b of the week. It won't dissapear by people saying things like "it can only be defined by the people in the relationship." It could dissapear if there was a comprehensive and complete reference work that once and for all defined these terms in clear and objective terms, and that reference work was one of the first things shown to people entering the lifestyle."

My friend what you do in your home is up to you but dont be belittling the nOObies in this lifestyle.


Is a little reading comprehension from "the One" too much to ask???

I wasn't belittling anyone...I was hoping to eliminate a particular vein of conversation by having a handy reference for everyone to point out to n00bies.

Imagine a world that had no yardsticks. Everyone would wonder how tall things were. There would be threads discussing how tall people are. If I said I was 6 feet tall, it might mean 6 of my feet or six of another persons feet. Yet, someone, somewhere, standardized the "foot", and such discussions were things of the past. That's all I am looking for here...

quote:


I think you would do well in politics dictating how you would like to have the people running around doing as the high government says. LOL. Have to laugh.


Good god man, how can you possibly get that out of what I wrote. You even quote me above saying, "I don't care what people call themselves behind closed doors." For the record, I will now say that I don't care about what they say behind open doors, nor do I care what they say in front of closed and/or open doors. The truth is, with the exception of about 10 people I know in this lifestyle, I really don't care what anyone thinks/says/does at all...

But with those 10, and the rest of the folks I try to converse with on here, I'd love to have a common language and verbal reference. Is that too much to ask? I suppose some think it is...but I think it isn't. And I am willing to kill millions of electrons in my quest for a common understanding of the definitions of the roles in BDSM

Maybe it would help if I was "the One"...

Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.


My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to MasterJWK)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: submissive vs slave - 2/2/2005 10:20:37 AM   
Voltare


Posts: 841
Joined: 1/1/2004
From: Santiago, Chile
Status: offline
In my opinion, this is one of those age old online wars that I fail to see any significant distinction involved in the real world.

The world slave, to me, means something different from a submissive. Submission is a quality, one that I believe every human posesses to one degree or another. Most of us stop at stop signs, pay the price listed on groceries, pay our income taxes, and everyone to one degree or another follows the written rules of the world somewhere, someplace. This would, by definition, be submitting to laws, rules, and social mores. Dominance is the same - everyone has, at some point or another, given an instruction to another person, made a rule for their home, children, etc, or in some way exercised authority. People who identify themselves as submissives or Dominants, aren't stating they lack the other quality, just that their preferred role (most frequently) in their personal relationships. I know lots of submissives who are dominant at work, and lots of Dominants have submissive roles in the home, in the workplace, etc etc. For many, the expression of these roles is almost exclusively reserved for either the bedroom, or interaction with their significant other(s).

A 'slave' in my mind refers to a specific type of submissive, with a desire for a greater degree of control over their personal lives. Rules can become harsher, stronger, more plentiful, and the need for enforcement is often greater (a submissive often needs rules, but as reality interferes, sometimes the resulting punishments are not a severe, or aggressively applied.) Some submissives have a fantasy of being a slave, for periods of time daily, on weekends, or even 24/7, but I don't consider this to be the majority. Definitions of Masters verses Dominints are similar in nature, I think, with only a few distinctions. The defining element, I believe, is the implication of ownership, though I would be careful about assigning broad labels i.e. 'if a woman doesn't agree that her Master has parental rights over her offspring, then she can't be considered a slave.' While that definition works for some people, it doesn't work for me. I think this is why most people who are active in the lifestyle usually have a measure of tolerance when it comes to assigning titles and labels, preferring to just ask the other person what they believe themselves to be.

Deeds, titles, and paychecks obviously can be transferred at will.

Stephan

As for the few legal questions, I do know a little about it. Adoption rights are a little fuzzy, as the state has ultimate authority. If a local Child Protective Services were to find that a woman was, say, 'bred' for the purpose of selling her child by her Master to a childless family... well, the adoption would likely be contested and taken by the state (a quick search on Google will show a few examples of this.)

Power of Attorny comes in two forms, with different names in different states. A specific power of attorny outlines exactly what the authority entails, i.e. authority over the sale of a house for example. This is a standard form that any person would sign to allow their lawyer to act in their stead, though anyone may be granted such power. A general power of attorny is a broad document, allowing a person to do everything from write checks in your name, use your credit card, sell your house, or buy a car - as if you were doing it yourself. I gave my mother such a document before I left for South America, so she could tend any issues that arise while I am out of the country. Obviously, such documents are rare, usually including an expiration date, or other safeguards. A slave could sign such a document, and while it does not give her own rights up (it is nearly impossible to sign a document surrendering every right you have, as many are also responsibilities - i.e. tax obligations can't be 'given up') it does extend her authority to the Master in question.



_____________________________

http://www.vv3b.com/

"There is always some madness in love, but there is always some reason in madness." - F. Nietzsche

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: submissive vs slave - 2/2/2005 10:39:44 AM   
TallDarkAndWitty


Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Voltare
A 'slave' in my mind refers to a specific type of submissive, with a desire for a greater degree of control over their personal lives.


I suppose this is the perception I am trying to battle. Why is it that people lump slaves in with intense submissives? Why can't a submissive who desires a greater degree of control (ie dominance) still be a submissive?

And why can't slavery be taken a bit less seriously? What is wrong with someone who just wants to be owned on weekends? Or just wants to be owned for a few hours? Or wants to be owned, but only if certain safeguards are in place? Submissives get to have rules, limits, safewords and such, why shouldn't slaves?

There isn't anything mystical or magical about the desire to own or be owned...it isn't much different then the desire to dominate or submit. It comes it shades and strengths. Some are heavy edge players and like there submission or ownedness 24/7 some want it a lot less.

Perhaps I should just give up on the word slave. Perhaps it has too many connotations and emotional weight. I think I will start using the word "property" to express what I am looking for. Submissives, servants, and property will match dominants, Masters, and Owners. Hmm...food for thought, anyway.

Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.


My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to Voltare)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: submissive vs slave - 2/2/2005 10:44:03 AM   
MasterJWK


Posts: 3
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
What really scares me about people like yourself wanting to dictate what words mean are the way one person twists such meaning.

From your website Taggard:

"I think slave relationships are about growth, and as such, are very seldom permanent. Typically, a slave learns all an owner or master has to teach, and then should move on. That being my philosophy, I feel that although I would prefer a female slave, I would not rule out an exceptional male slave on a limited basis. "


Now tell me that is not twisted??

Another thing that really scares me and has the potential to really mess up a nOObie is when people like yourself give advice when you have twisted wrong thoughts as quoted above.

"Dear God Man" give your opinion. But back off a bit you are not a God with all the knowledge of the BDSM lifestyle.

Read more about this issue on this thread.

http://www.collarme.com/forum/definitions/m_65236/tm.htm

I don't understand the "Maybe it would help if I was "the One"... comment??

I was the one that made the comment to her.....I dont believe that is hard to understand.

Master Jwk

(in reply to Voltare)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: submissive vs slave - 2/2/2005 11:14:39 AM   
panthergoddess


Posts: 93
Joined: 1/11/2005
From: Bessemer City, NC USA
Status: offline
"property" may not work here either.

there are 4 things you can do with property of any kind,
sell it
give it away
trade it for other goods
throw it in the garbage (dispose of it somehow)

People who own property take up the responsibility of its proper placement after it's use. So....taggart..which would you do to your "property"? Sell, give, trade or throw it away?
sell, give, or trade is indicitive of having someone to receive it and care for it when you are done
throw it away is indicitive it no longer being useful to anyone. (certainly you would not do that to a human being as it would definately cause emotional harm to them)

_____________________________

"No good deed goes unpunished."

(in reply to MasterJWK)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: submissive vs slave - 2/2/2005 11:14:46 AM   
TallDarkAndWitty


Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJWK

What really scares me about people like yourself wanting to dictate what words mean are the way one person twists such meaning.


Ok, I'll try this again, using simple words and one sentence paragraphs.

I don't want to tell anyone what to do.

I don't want to dictate what words mean.

I want there to be a standard reference that people can point to when using BDSM specific words.

I have not found such a reference that describes BDSM specific words in a way that fits my reality.

I am pondering creating such a reference. (Ed: Do you think pondering might be too big a word? I hope not...will explain later if I have to.)

quote:


From your website Taggard:

"I think slave relationships are about growth, and as such, are very seldom permanent. Typically, a slave learns all an owner or master has to teach, and then should move on. That being my philosophy, I feel that although I would prefer a female slave, I would not rule out an exceptional male slave on a limited basis. "

Now tell me that is not twisted??


I can't...it is quite twisted. I am quite twisted. You have uncovered my deep dark and hidden secret. Now you (and a few thousand others who have visisted my site) know the real truth. I am twisted. (Note to self: work out a better system for hiding my secrets than putting them up on my webpage.)

quote:


Another thing that really scares me and has the potential to really mess up a nOObie is when people like yourself give advice when you have twisted wrong thoughts as quoted above.


And who wants to dictate what to whom?

quote:


"Dear God Man" give your opinion. But back off a bit you are not a God with all the knowledge of the BDSM lifestyle.


See above. If it still doesn't make sense, I'll try and work it our in even simpler terms.

quote:


Read more about this issue on this thread.

http://www.collarme.com/forum/definitions/m_65236/tm.htm


Dude, I have been doing this for going on 9 years (with posts on usenet newsgroups to prove it). I know what definitions are out there...I have read them...they don't work for me. They inexplicably link slavery and submission. That doesn't work for me. It doesn't work for lots of people, because this is not the first, nor will it be the last, time this was discussed.

quote:


I don't understand the "Maybe it would help if I was "the One"... comment??


Hmmm...ya think? *laughing*

quote:


I was the one that made the comment to her.....I dont believe that is hard to understand.


Dude, I was having fun with your use of capital letters. Having a screen name that contains the word Master and then capping the "O" of "one" when refering to yourself just puts you instantly into the loser category with me. I fight that prejudice hard, but nothing you have subsequently said has moved you out of the loser bin.

Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.


My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to MasterJWK)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: submissive vs slave - 2/2/2005 11:20:10 AM   
resademilo


Posts: 29
Joined: 1/27/2005
Status: offline
The reason why terms in BDSM will never be standardized is the same reason there are more Religions then there are flavors of the week at Ben & Jerry's.

When people want to be something or called something if the term doesn't fit them, they make it fit. Like the King who had to bible adapted to make divorce allowed so he could get a divorce.

Personally i don't like the whole "it's between the two people" response. Let's be honest it's a cop out. End the end it's all labels whether we like it or not. The best we can do is tell a person here's my view of what this means (and make sure you stress it's your view).

But in the end, it's up to that person who's looking for answers to piece together what they can learn from us and others, and find what terms make sense to them and work for their unique situation.

Because BDSM is home to a collective of alternative minded individuals, it's going to have many different flavors but everyone Does have a flavor of their own.

So it's no harm in saying what you think is Dominant or what you believe is submissive as long as you don't spontaneously combust when 10, 100 or 1000 others have different definitions.

I've dealt with some Dominants that i'm not even going to start ranking upon, but i learned you do have to ask questions and people do need to say more then "it's between two people." We want BDSM to be SSC well then we have to start defining things. When we leave it obscure, people get hurt and saying "oh well they should have been more careful" isn't going to cut it.

So when a person asks me I tell them what i think and i add you can take it or leave it but this isn't up for debate it's my opinion and mine alone.

Now as an African American i will say this the term "slave" is defined it's been defined for centuries years now. The negative connotations are descriptors and examples of how anything can be made bad. The BDSM version should be defined in terms that keep it separated from that. But Taggard is right. If you look it up in the dictionary slave is someone who is owned.

Period. there's a definition for submissive too. Does it apply to the BDSM world? No it's a definition with no flavor or perservatives added!

Someone should invest in making a BDSM dictionary or Encyclopedia. Grant it people tend to avoid it because there will always be someone debating what this term and that term means.

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: submissive vs slave - 2/2/2005 11:30:17 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

End the end it's all labels whether we like it or not. The best we can do is tell a person here's my view of what this means (and make sure you stress it's your view).


I so agree. Great first post. Welcome to the boards!

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to resademilo)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: submissive vs slave - 2/2/2005 12:03:06 PM   
TallDarkAndWitty


Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: resademilo
Personally i don't like the whole "it's between the two people" response. Let's be honest it's a cop out. End the end it's all labels whether we like it or not. The best we can do is tell a person here's my view of what this means (and make sure you stress it's your view).


I like the cut of your jib!

Welcome to the boards...watch were you step. *wink*

Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.


My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to resademilo)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: submissive vs slave - 2/2/2005 12:09:09 PM   
sub4hire


Posts: 6775
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Personally i don't like the whole "it's between the two people" response. Let's be honest it's a cop out. End the end it's all labels whether we like it or not. The best we can do is tell a person here's my view of what this means (and make sure you stress it's your view).


Actually it is far from being a cop out. It is learning to get along with other's. Respecting one another to know some may have different views than you do. Via real life experiences.
The only way to truly get a definition you'd have to go back to the old guard, the few that are still alive. Ask them for their dictionary. Which of course they did not have.

There will never be any sort of universal definition. There are far too many people in the world with far too many idea's for us to just stop growing as human beings right now.
Personally I happen to like the fact I can grow.
Perhaps the one's who don't are the one's who want the definitions set in stone today. All growth over, now what do we have to look forward to the rest of our lives?

(in reply to resademilo)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: submissive vs slave - 2/2/2005 12:18:51 PM   
ruffnecksbabygir


Posts: 412
Joined: 1/4/2005
Status: offline
TallDarkAndWitty

sometimes it's better to not even waste ones time with people who are set on interpreting everything their own weird way....what you wrote made perfect sense.

personally, i don't feel it's up to each individual to define the lifestyle, it is what it is....sure we all take and give to it, but that doesn't mean that it changes the meaning of the words we use to describe our roles or protocols within the lifestyle.

_____________________________

~hugs~
Babygirl

:Disclaimer: The above is only this slave's opinion:

"And Those Who Danced Were Thought To Be Quite Insane By Those Who Could Not Hear The Music" -- Angela Monet

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: submissive vs slave - 2/2/2005 12:19:02 PM   
TallDarkAndWitty


Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sub4hire
The only way to truly get a definition you'd have to go back to the old guard, the few that are still alive.


Now that doesn't make any sense at all. The old guard weren't given any special powers of term definition. As you say, they didn't even have a dictionary.

That isn't saying the experienced shouldn't be involved in compiling a useful resource, just that they are not the only source of information.

Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.


My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to sub4hire)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: submissive vs slave - 2/2/2005 12:20:25 PM   
sub4hire


Posts: 6775
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Now that doesn't make any sense at all. The old guard weren't given any special powers of term definition. As you say, they didn't even have a dictionary.



Exactly!

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: submissive vs slave - 2/2/2005 12:21:41 PM   
TallDarkAndWitty


Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ruffnecksbabygir
sometimes it's better to not even waste ones time with people who are set on interpreting everything their own weird way....what you wrote made perfect sense.


Thank you...I am glad it makes sense to someone. *wink*

But you don't need to worry about me. I actually enjoy the debate. It gives me a chance to flex my debate muscles...keep the old reflexes sharp. *smile*

Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.


My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to ruffnecksbabygir)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: submissive vs slave - 2/2/2005 12:26:28 PM   
sub4hire


Posts: 6775
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

But you don't need to worry about me. I actually enjoy the debate. It gives me a chance to flex my debate muscles...keep the old reflexes sharp. *smile*


I personally don't see it as a debate. It is merely respecting one another. Which I already stated and you had nothing to add.

What I would like to understand is why some feel so threatened when their definitions do not match other's? Is it trying so hard to fit in or what?

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: submissive vs slave - 2/2/2005 12:32:13 PM   
ruffnecksbabygir


Posts: 412
Joined: 1/4/2005
Status: offline
good! i'm the same way, i must admit, i love a good debate.... that's the fun part of writing in a mb for me. btw, your site is wonderful! congrats on a great job! it is very informative, i really enjoy browsing through it, thanks for sharing!

_____________________________

~hugs~
Babygirl

:Disclaimer: The above is only this slave's opinion:

"And Those Who Danced Were Thought To Be Quite Insane By Those Who Could Not Hear The Music" -- Angela Monet

(in reply to TallDarkAndWitty)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: submissive vs slave - 2/2/2005 12:37:24 PM   
ruffnecksbabygir


Posts: 412
Joined: 1/4/2005
Status: offline
can only answer for myself, of course...i don't feel threatened at all when someone's definition is different than mine...but then again i don't see it as being "my definition..in this case we are talking about the difference between a submissive and slave, i agree that not everyone can answer this in the same manner exactly because everyone can view it their own way, however, this doesn't mean that the definition of a slave or submissive is left up to the beholder...a slave is a slave, a submissive is a submissive, a slave by definition is an owned property, a submissive is someone who submits to another.....that's not to say that everyone has to live the lifestyle one certain way, but again, doesn't mean we change definitions of words to adapt to everyones view...it is what it is.

_____________________________

~hugs~
Babygirl

:Disclaimer: The above is only this slave's opinion:

"And Those Who Danced Were Thought To Be Quite Insane By Those Who Could Not Hear The Music" -- Angela Monet

(in reply to sub4hire)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: submissive vs slave - 2/2/2005 12:44:56 PM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: resademilo

Personally i don't like the whole "it's between the two people" response. Let's be honest it's a cop out. End the end it's all labels whether we like it or not. The best we can do is tell a person here's my view of what this means (and make sure you stress it's your view).

But in the end, it's up to that person who's looking for answers to piece together what they can learn from us and others, and find what terms make sense to them and work for their unique situation.



Greetings resademilo... welcome to the forum and your first post!

I would ask though...You do not like the 'it's between the two people' response... yet a little further down you say that its up to the person...(which, if envolved in a relationship, involves the communication between two people to make the decision) forgive me if I only see a contradiction there?

Taggard,


quote:

I suppose this is the perception I am trying to battle. Why is it that people lump slaves in with intense submissives? Why can't a submissive who desires a greater degree of control (ie dominance) still be a submissive?


If thats the case. Whats all the hassle? Why the need for definitions? I am trying to understand why you feel there is a need... or you have this need, for definition. Why must everyone belong? Right now, the definitions are over taking the why. You think they help new people fit in the Ls? Because if thats the case... yes, for some it will be wonderfully freeing. But for others, they may feel they do not meet the requirements of the definition... feel as though they have failed and simply drift away...

Your right, a slave can be a slave for two hours if thats all that slave wants to be. or weeks... or months... or the rest of their lives.

So all I can say is... if new people interested in the Lifestyle ask this question, then let them... if it happens again and again... I say... BRING IT ON... because thats the beauty. COMMUNICATION. We are all talking. We are all conversing. We may not agree. We may not all have the same ideas... OR definitions. But at least someone can then see that not everyone has to be this perfect, defined being just to fit in.

quote:

Is slave, in this definition just a subset of submissive?


Is a Master a subset of Dominant?


_____________________________


.dark.




...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to resademilo)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: submissive vs slave - 2/2/2005 12:48:37 PM   
TallDarkAndWitty


Posts: 1893
Joined: 6/12/2004
From: Rochester, NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sub4hire
What I would like to understand is why some feel so threatened when their definitions do not match other's? Is it trying so hard to fit in or what?


What I would like to understand is why people who ask tough questions and demand more of an answer than "it depends on the couple" are seen as feeling threatened.

I want to fix something that annoys me. I am not threatened. I am, at most, inconvieninced. I love to debate (although you think this isn't a debate (shall we debate that?)), but I am not threatened at all by those who don't agree.

I go back to the yardstick thing...would I be threatened if some crackpot decided that a foot really meant the size of his own foot and not what everyone else thinks a foot means? Of course not. If we were talking about what a foot means, I would ignore such a fool. However, what we are talking about is the establishment of such a common understanding, and that is ever so much more interesting and debate worthy.

Taggard

_____________________________

A most rewarding compliment is an insult from the ill-informed.


My slave: Kat (RainaVerene on the other side) and her website: RainaVerene.com

(in reply to sub4hire)
Profile   Post #: 40
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