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RE: Seriousness in Switching - 11/21/2006 10:36:47 PM

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Joined: 11/19/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wildfleurs

It would be nice if you disagreed with me that you actually stuck to the substance. To quote my own post in terms of the number of times I made *I statements*:

I read through both pages and thought about not posting because well.. I'm not a switch....
But I get where starshine is coming from, although I think linguistically the way she expresses it ....
But from my perspective I feel....
I can't really see how they'd be....
For some people (myself included)....
I don't think people have to be serious....
I don't think I'd internally or personally consider....
I mean that if someone is able to of their own violition shift out of the place of being someones slave to being over them then I cannot consider them a slave....

C~

Let me be more clear... I wasn't referring to the actual use of the word "I". I statements are statements that pertain to you, yourself, your feelings, your beliefs.

It doesn't mean they can't be devoted emotionally to each other it also doesn't mean they can't be committed or serious about their relationship, but I can't really see how they'd be serious or committed about the dynamic if the energy is constantly shifting.

It's not necessary for you to "see" how it works for anyone else... you do what works for you and they'll do what works for them. You don't need to "see" it for it to be valid.

(at the risk of repeating myself I mean that if someone is able to of their own violition shift out of the place of being someones slave to being over them then I cannot consider them a slave)

You don't have to see it in order for it to be valid.

There's much less chance of misunderstanding if you discuss what works for you in your situation or in your past experiences, instead of making statements that come across as judgements of authenticity.

Perhaps one of these thrown in... in my humble opinion,
Lieren

PS Please don't think that I'm fighting with anyone, I'm truly not. It just bothers me when people use language that implies superiority... which may explain why I'm not part of a hierarchical religion

I'm sorry if I've overstepped... I'm new

< Message edited by Lieren -- 11/21/2006 10:47:07 PM >

_____________________________

~Lieren~ -- Happy in my Perceived Indecision :P

(in reply to Wildfleurs)

RE: Seriousness in Switching - 11/22/2006 5:56:28 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lieren

Let me be more clear... I wasn't referring to the actual use of the word "I". I statements are statements that pertain to you, yourself, your feelings, your beliefs.

Yes and my reason for posting them was to illustrate (perhaps not clearly) that the entire post was just about how I feel about it because the original post (and the followup posts) seemed to be asking/debating why some people don't view switches as being serious in regards to D/s. My post was explaining why from my perspective I would not view someone as being serious in regards to D/s (in terms of the seriousness of their relationship and the committment I can entirely see them as being serious without a problem).

Theres no way to two-step around the issue of validity, the thread is all about why some people (I'm using a plural reference because its clear that LA has encountered it before) do not see switching as being serious about D/s, hence the title. I don't think there's any way to disagree with the original post without pissing off switches, which is why I seriously hesitated to post. I did post because I respect LA and I thought of all of the people who could probably handle hearing dissenting/different views to something that they probably view as very personal, and that a opinion on one part of a person doesn't mean an opinion on the whole of the person or the whole of the relationship. I also posted because as I said, I felt that starsunshine's post was awkward (and made me cringe a bit), so I felt the need to at least explain why switches may not be taken seriously a bit clearer from my perspective.

I would suggest, given that you are new that you may want to avoid explicitly attempting to tell people how they should and should not post, I don't really appreciate it. I have tried to avoid any language that suggests that I'm superior to anyone because ... I don't think I'm superior to anyone. So that I think you are just reading into my comments on the issue of switching, D/s dynamics, and focus/seriousness.

C~

< Message edited by Wildfleurs -- 11/22/2006 5:57:06 AM >

_____________________________

"Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid." -despair.com

~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
The heart of it all - http://www.wildfleurs.com
~~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

(in reply to Lieren)

RE: Seriousness in Switching - 11/24/2006 12:04:10 PM

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As I said, no offense meant. I understand what you were trying to say, and once I read your reply I went back and read the original post, and realized that I was not exactly objective.

Apologies.

_____________________________

~Lieren~ -- Happy in my Perceived Indecision :P

(in reply to Wildfleurs)

RE: Seriousness in Switching - 11/29/2006 4:43:34 PM

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This cracks me up. "If people make the misperception that I am confused or less “serious” because who I am is expressed differently from the traditional ways…"

The traditional ways? I dont think theres too many ways that any of us are here being, "traditional". Funny it should even concern you. Who woulda thunk it? lol

(in reply to BitaTruble)

RE: Seriousness in Switching - 11/29/2006 5:41:51 PM

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If I wasn't concerned, I wouldn't be posting anywhere. Of course I am concerned how I'm perceived- how ELSE could I tailor my responses to my audience? How else could I really shape what I say to reach my intended targer? How ELSE could I cultivate the respect that I do over time? How ELSE could I grow in who I am without gaining social knowledge and perspective?

I care a lot.

Wild- I'm still working on a response to your post, thanks for your patience.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to sophia37)

RE: Seriousness in Switching - 12/1/2006 9:42:42 AM

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Okay. First off, I find starshine's postings offensive, simply because she IS spouting OneTrueWayism. Just because you can't understand it, starshine, doesn't mean you can come down on it. Personally, I can't understand YOUR mindset, how you would devote yourself so fully to the point where you give up your own pronouns! But. You're happy, aren't you? It fulfills you, doesn't it? That's fantastic. Your kink isn't my kink, but it makes you happy so you keep on keepin' on. The problem here arises when my kink (and LA's as well) isn't your kink, but you don't think that's okay. Which is very bad and no in this lifestyle. We're all marginalized and made to feel like crap thanks to the vanilla mainstream, so why are you trying to make someone feel worse for their choices? I don't understand Gor in the slightest, for example...but people are happy doing it, so thumbs up for them! Just because it isn't MY choice or MY mindset doesn't mean it's wrong or bad. It's just different from mine, and equally valid. That's what you have trouble with, starshine. You need to accept that different doesn't mean bad, that's all.

LA, what I think people are having trouble assimilating is that even though the energy changes, that doesn't mean we're not committed to what we do, or it's shallow, or that someone who isn't a switch can get deeper, more intense, and better than us. (Yeah, that pisses me off.) The energy changes, but I'd like to think switches are more knowledgeable and deeper than straight dominants or submissives, because we know both sides and do often get the chance to go deep and intimate.

Finally, I find the deeper-than-thou-cos-I-don't-switch argument to be incredibly hilarious, closeminded, and silly. Thanks for the laughs, guys.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

RE: Seriousness in Switching - 12/28/2006 3:58:30 PM

MzMia

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

I will say this.. I've never seen a switch that didn't eventually settle into one or the other roles. And I'll be so bold as to ad that bisexuals eventually do show a preference.

Well said, standing ovation here.

_____________________________

Namaste'
To Each His/Her Own
"DENIAL ain't just a river in Egypt." Mark Twain

What's your favorite fetish?
"My partner's whisper"--bloomswell

(in reply to LotusSong)

RE: Seriousness in Switching - 12/28/2006 7:49:19 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jthorne
but I'd like to think switches are more knowledgeable and deeper than straight dominants or submissives, because we know both sides and do often get the chance to go deep and intimate.

Finally, I find the deeper-than-thou-cos-I-don't-switch argument to be incredibly hilarious, closeminded, and silly. Thanks for the laughs, guys.

Umm but that's exactly the same as your "deeper than thou cos I DO switch" argument.

You can't have it both ways. I don't think switches are any deeper or wiser or more understanding than non-switches.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to jthorne)

RE: Seriousness in Switching - 12/28/2006 7:56:08 PM

blackwinterbyrd

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Joined: 9/4/2006
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er. this one is confusing.

so, if you don't spend all your time in one role, whether by not switching or not being 24/7, you aren't experiencing it as fully as someone who does nothing else.
thats an odd statement. and yes, it does sound alot like the "you can't be as devoted to each person if you are equally devoted to more than one." which I am trying not to believe in. a zero sum game. I suppose time is a zero sum game.
and then again replacement is not an empty fear...

Have you ever known someone who worked and slaved to be good at something (art, math, or in my case, running) and made some progress only to meet someone who only does it occasionally or has just tried it once and completely outdoes you?

I've been there, and even though its frustrating I laugh when it happens to other people.
what makes you think that someone who doesn't spend all their time writing fiction or submitting won't be as talented or skilled or trancendent as someone who does?
what, are you a guru or something? "when you have spent as much time as I have contemplating your navel, then maybe you will understand." when the correct response is always "I understand that you are full of crap and my path lies within and not with you."

So I'm not experiencing submission as much because...insert almost anything here. because I have my own money, because I have rights, because I get mad and call bullshit when I feel I'm being treated badly. because I switch.
I see the metaphor of an experienced skydiver as opposed to someone who has only taken a couple of lessons. This reminds me of horsemanship posuerism. And the crucial difference there was that if you were lying about your expertise, you were f**cked when the horse panicked or something went wrong that you had no experience with. What can go wrong with switching? emotional breakdowns, bleeding, a lukewarm experience. You get the experience whether you are the horse or the rider. If something goes wrong, you are not better equipped to handle it because you have only had one role. maybe even the opposite, although I see that is adressed here.
thisgirl struck me as spouting judgemental nonsense and saying her way is more...something. and that gets on people's nerves, whether its innocuous or not. (my peppermint fudge is peppermintier than yours because I added more peppermint.) or not (mine is truer to the soul of peppermint than yours. you made peanut butter fudge last week and I can taste the taint of it in your peppermint attempt) It might be like art. We simply arent going to agree on what moves us, brings us deeper. different strokes for different folks.

< Message edited by blackwinterbyrd -- 12/28/2006 8:00:23 PM >

(in reply to MzMia)

RE: Seriousness in Switching - 12/28/2006 8:48:31 PM

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Joined: 4/4/2005
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WOW... This quote from the Velveteen Rabbit hit so in time with me tonight. Thank you for sharing it. I know that it's a book etc, but may I borrow this for my blog?

I have recently stepped outside of my box and have begun exploring my world as a Switch with the strong encouragement of Sir Dave. I was kind of kicked down today and am abit discouraged but this is just very fitting.

Thank You (Sorry for going off the orginal topic) so on that... Adressing the topic at hand:

I think overall, if what works for you LA works for You then FANTASTIC!!! If You're happy and your Mate is happy. Then that is all that matters. I'm behind my computer, I could sit here and judge you all I wanted to but what in the end would that gain me? I have always enjoyed what you have written. And dang you for changing your screen name, LOL. I have to readd you now! I think you are an amazing woman with alot of knowledge and insight and I always gain abit more each time I read what you have to say. Even if I don't always agree with what you say. ~s~

Syn~

_____________________________

"You have to get past the pleasure stage, until you reach the stage of tears.Some people are always grumbling because roses have thorns. I am thankful that thorns have roses." -:Allophones Karr:-

(in reply to Lieren)

RE: Seriousness in Switching - 12/28/2006 9:03:56 PM

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Joined: 7/15/2006
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I think when you accept a label or title for yourself, there is a continuem of choices to make about it. Is it going to be your sole identity? Your primary One? Or is it going to be one of many? If you offer it out for others to identify you by, whether as a courtesy or by any other means, you sometimes feel a zing where your inner world touches the outer one. Sometimes thats peachy, sometimes not.

But we all identify ourselves in some way, however fluid, and for most of the people I've ever encountered, they were flexible in most of their labels.

I saw this same sort of 'deeper than thou' stuff when I joined a breastfeeding support group. Some of the women spent an enormous amount of time trying to define (for others) what exactly was the level of breastfeeding one needed to be doing to call yourself a Breastfeeding Mother. These were almost always the ladies who's sole identity was within their form of mothering in general, and nursing in particular. It was endless. Sometimes rabid. God forbid a working mother who used substituted formula for human milk walk into one of the meetings. Major dissing the moment she was "found out" to be ....a switch.

......A person comfortable with flexibility in their expressions of themselves, their interactions with others, and their spirituality over time. If it gets the job done for me, what could it possibly matter?

Back to the BF thing: years later I see those moms and now teens around town....and they all made it. Even the ones weighing their babies before and after nursing them, and telling everyone about how much they were giving in service to their little dominants. It takes all kinds, and there's space enough.

(in reply to blackwinterbyrd)

RE: Seriousness in Switching - 12/29/2006 8:42:02 AM

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As I see it, being serious about the "energy shifting" dynamic is just being serious about a different thing. It's like areas of specialization - no one would say that Picsso didn't know anything about ceramics simply because his primary medium was painting. There is a significant body of ceramic work there. It's like saying ONLY Warren MacKenzie and Peter Volkous really know how to use clay and Picasso was just pretending.

I won't argue that you will learn different things when you are committed to only being a M or an s and nothing else - that your experience of M or s as a fixed and inevitable truth is different, and the lessons learned about commitment over time might be valuable but it doesn't mean other people are faking it. It's like saying being a GP isn't *really* being a doctor. They're just a more generalistic kind of MD.

I'm one of those started switch settled into where I am people. And I do "get it."

Luckily M/s couples who don't switch ever find one another. If I need open heart surgery, I'll look for a cardiac surgeon.

<-- considers herself a skydiving instructor who has happened to bother to jump out of the damn plane herself in the past.

< Message edited by Grlwithboy -- 12/29/2006 8:48:29 AM >

(in reply to Donnalee)

RE: Seriousness in Switching - 12/30/2006 10:12:39 AM

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Fergus...just what I was thinking.

(in reply to fergus)

RE: Seriousness in Switching - 12/30/2006 4:47:45 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bandit25

Fergus...just what I was thinking.

lol, thanks Bandit ... I had to go back to see what I wrote, it was a month and a half ago!

I wonder why the bruha of this thread has come back?

fergus

(in reply to bandit25)

RE: Seriousness in Switching - 12/30/2006 7:17:55 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross
I know a slave who considers herself a lesbian, and yet has a male master and greatly enjoys sex with him. She considers that one exception to prove her rule.

Hi :)

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

RE: Seriousness in Switching - 1/1/2007 9:41:16 AM

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I lurk every now and then, though I haven't posted much, but I just wanted to chime in on this post. I really enjoyed the whole thread, but I have noticed that LuckyAlbatross's posts often resonate with me. I've also been disturbed at the amount of One True Waysim prevalent in what is considered an 'alternative' lifestyle. Honestly, if I see one more "Ur just not real", I think my eyes will implode. I'm astounded at how many people not only think they can pass judgement, but also feel it's their duty to 'correct' the behaviors of others they're not even involved with.

While I've gotten my share of fake-calling because I'm a switch, I actually think I've been targetted more for this because I'm not 24/7 TPE or M/s (or, of course, because I refuse to send pics when my profile clearly states Not Looking. This obviously makes me fake).

We choose to keep this aspect of our relationship private for now, because we have two toddler for whom we are rolemodels. It's important to us that they see their parents as equals. I used to loathe the word 'lifestyle', because I felt it enabled elitism, but now I *do* recognize that it is my lifestyle. Why? Because I could not go back to vanilla - it's too much a part of my life and who I am and what I love (but it doesn't have to be my *whole* life. And if it's not, that doesn't make my life any less valid.)

Since we began our journey on this particular path, our relationship is better than it ever was. We were already blessed with a life together built on trust, communication, and intimacy, but now we've reached levels with those that I never in a million years would have thought possible. We're happier together, we're having sex more often (and it wasn't even near dry to begin with, excepting after we had the kidlets), we're expressing ourselves more clearly, and we both understand each other's true essenses better than ever before.

If that's "just playing" to other folks, that's fine by me. I mean, I'll cry myself to sleep over losing my Official Real Kinkster Certificate, but that really just leaves more wall space for the floggers. :)

(in reply to ImpGrrl)

RE: Seriousness in Switching - 1/15/2007 12:23:10 AM

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Joined: 8/8/2006
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Lifestyle is certainly a buffet table and i have found that among the various items, it is some folk's "kink" to fancy their way as superior to others..I dont get offended I am pleased to serve..lol.

Lucky..I am truly happy for you, it sounds like you are blessed.

(in reply to BitaTruble)

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