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MmakeMme -> RE: an uncomfortable experience today (11/24/2006 3:50:25 AM)

Sir and I were having a conversation recently. He posed to me a question. "Suppose I asked you to bake me a cake. You did as I asked but it was the worst thing I had ever eaten. Have you been a good sub?"

I replied "I did as you asked but I suppose I failed."

He asked "What do you suppose you could have done?"

I said "I could have asked you what kind of cake you wanted."

He said "Suppose I told you what kind of cake I wanted, and that's what you made for Me, and it was still the worst thing I had ever eaten? Have you been a good sub?"

I pondered and said "Sir, I did as you asked. Perhaps you left out the part about making a ~good~ cake. Yes, I was a good sub."

He asked "Even though I was not pleased with you?"

The tone of this conversation was making me doubt myself. I said "No Sir. I suppose I was not a good sub, even though there is a slimmer chance of snow in hell that I would make anything that would not taste good. I am a good cook."

He said "Indulge me. Suppose the cake was not to My liking. And also suppose I was pissed off at the world that day. Nobody did anything to suit Me. And now your cake has displeased Me. Have you been a good sub?"

I thought for another moment and said "Sir, yes I have been a good sub. I did as You asked and baked the cake You wanted. No one can please anyone all the time."

He smiled and said "And that is what I wanted you to say. You will not please me all the time but the important thing is that you tried. Just because I am not pleased by your effort does not make you a bad sub and does not make me a bad Sir."

In short, we're all human. We have off days. Work the complexities as best you can and remain in open communication. Try the best you can - it is all you can do.



SamKeithsslave -> RE: an uncomfortable experience today (11/24/2006 3:57:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MmakeMme
I thought for another moment and said "Sir, yes I have been a good sub. I did as You asked and baked the cake You wanted. No one can please anyone all the time."

He smiled and said "And that is what I wanted you to say. You will not please me all the time but the important thing is that you tried. Just because I am not pleased by your effort does not make you a bad sub and does not make me a bad Sir."

In short, we're all human. We have off days. Work the complexities as best you can and remain in open communication. Try the best you can - it is all you can do.


Yep, so true and what a great story, you had me thinking "what would I have responded" lol



LordVelvet -> RE: an uncomfortable experience today (11/24/2006 6:39:55 AM)

I am very glad that you chose to share that story. Thank you.



Squeakers -> RE: an uncomfortable experience today (11/24/2006 7:54:02 AM)

quote:

Your in 24/7 TPE he cant just say "I dont feel like beeing Masterfull right now" just like you cant say I dont feel like beeing a sub right now

I am not trying to stomp this quote and I think I get the what Magik is saying.   One simply can not play the game and say I'm only going to be Dom/sub when I feel like it but on the other hand one is not going to always feel submissive or Dominant 24/7.   Christ that is asking way too much and I sincerely doubt that most are going to be in a Dom/sub feeling mode 24/7 although they still are Dominant and submissive 24/7.  
   I think LA said it best when not all mothers feel motherly 24/7 even though they are still mothers.   I don't feel motherly when I am at work, but I can achieve that feeling if perhaps the school nurse calls and says my child is ill and needs me.  
   Going back to the orginal post, if I were shopping with Master, I probably would not refer to him as Master in a shop, of course it may depend what we were shopping for.   For example if we were in a sex shop, (I doubt we would go there as  those types of items are bought online) I may be inclined to call him Master, however if we were in the market purchasing weekly groceries, I'd call him by name.   I don't know about anyone else but I am not feeling really subby when we are comparing prices and reading food labels.  
   I do understand the confussion stated by the OP however, because sometimes we get mixed messages.  
    Sometimes the mixed messages of the lifestyle cause the confussion especially with online.   There are people who are merely online, always have been always will be and for whatever reason they choose to never enter real time.   That's fine, I don't have a problem with that but what I have a problem with is the fact that sometimes the fantasy end of online tries to be passed off as a reality.  
  In the realm of D/s fantasy 24/7 is literal.   Reality ceases to exsist there.   Doms come home from work feeling like doing an all night scene, submissives can kneel all day in a corner waiting for him to get home, they can wear their collars out in public and no one is going to stare, they can be punished any time any where, no one ever gets sick especially the Dom because for goodness sakes that would be so unDom like, submissives always sit in their Dom's laps and Dom's always carry their submissives to the bedroom despite the fact that the Dom weighs a mere 150 and has no muscle tone what so ever and a bad back and the sub tops the scales at a comfortable 350.   
    The point is the reality of D/s is not as flowery as  fantasy portrays it to be.  
     For me communication is the key ingrediant to my relationship.   Without it there is no room for growth and there is always mixed messages.   Going back to the OP, if I were confussed as to his feelings, I would simply ask him.   Perhaps not right at the moment, but I would definately ask.   Again I have to agree with LA.   I can never just allow things to go back to normal and ignore something that bothered me.   Chances are, it's going to rear it's head again because my assumptions as to why he acted as he did are still assumptions and are never laid to rest with fact.



LuckyAlbatross -> RE: an uncomfortable experience today (11/24/2006 10:06:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: emdoub
Um... 'making her feel'?  Let's not get me started - but people who aren't responsible for their own emotions just don't get much of my sympathy.  What he did do was use a tone of voice, when she didn't respond quickly enough the first time - hardly cause for anyone (either present or in this thread) to go ballistic over.

Of course that's an excellent point.  We are all ultimately responsible for our own fulfillment and must own our own feelings. 

However, I've personally experienced and seen dominants foist this on their subs far too often the idea of "Don't blame ME- I can't make you happy or unhappy, those are YOUR feelings."

One example I can think of is my first owner on a New Years night.  We were long distance, a few states apart.  He had to work that night and I had specifically asked him what he was planning and he said that he was just going to work and maybe watch the ball drop.  Of course I call at midnight to wish him a happy new year- only to discover that he and his other live-in slave had planned for her to come over with champagne and be together.  He told me that I had ruined "their moment" and had now upset both of them.

What would you say there?  That they did not "make me" feel anything and so any bad feelings I have in response to that are just my own issues to deal with?

That's ridiculous- in human relationships, specially a long term intimate one, of COURSE what we do and say will have a direct and immediate effect on the other persons emotions.  The process of relating to people is all about feelings and communicating and responding to signals.  In healthy relationships, we're open, honest, and work through the bumps we hit.  In unhealthy ones, we shut other people down.



emdoub -> RE: an uncomfortable experience today (11/24/2006 10:51:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: emdoub
Um... 'making her feel'?  Let's not get me started - but people who aren't responsible for their own emotions just don't get much of my sympathy.  What he did do was use a tone of voice, when she didn't respond quickly enough the first time - hardly cause for anyone (either present or in this thread) to go ballistic over.

Of course that's an excellent point.  We are all ultimately responsible for our own fulfillment and must own our own feelings. 

However, I've personally experienced and seen dominants foist this on their subs far too often the idea of "Don't blame ME- I can't make you happy or unhappy, those are YOUR feelings."

(example snipped)

Your feelings were just that - your feelings.  Your expectations were too bleedin' high - you expected him to be honest. 

You were responsible for your feelings, he was responsible for his behavior and his reactions.  His blaming you for 'spoiling their moment' was absurd.

That likely sucked - my condolences. 

quote:

That's ridiculous- in human relationships, specially a long term intimate one, of COURSE what we do and say will have a direct and immediate effect on the other persons emotions.  The process of relating to people is all about feelings and communicating and responding to signals.  In healthy relationships, we're open, honest, and work through the bumps we hit.  In unhealthy ones, we shut other people down.


Agreed. 

Dragging this, kicking and screaming, back to the OP's original point (is OPOP a usable acronym here?), I agree that she may need to talk to her dom about her reaction.  I don't necessarily agree that failure to do so is automatically going to become a major issue - moods happen, but they don't all go critical and explode.

My second wife had PMS to legendary proportions - and, when she could, she spared me the lengthy discussions of the wierd moods and feelings she got.  Her ability to walk away from them and leave them alone was one of the strengths of our relationship - not a weakness, not a problem.  My ability to listen calmly and allow her to express her moods when she couldn't walk away from them, without trying to fix anything (well, other than hot chocolate and a footrub), while giving no creedence to these moods, was a useful skill.

Communication failure was not why she's my ex.

Some years before that, back in '78-'79, I had a lover who went on psychotic rampages about every 28 days.  Nobody had ever heard of  PMS, and I wasn't bright enough to notice the pattern.  We loved each other madly, and had a wonderful connection - but my trying to make sense of her mood swings, and either fix the problems she was reacting to or getting defensive about things that shouldn't have been problems, was a major factor in us splitting up.

So, was this a situation like that, where expressing the mood on a forum, and surviving the mood until it passed, was the wise choice, or was this a situation in which they really need to sit down and hash out the problem?  I dunno - and I'll probably never know.  I can live with that.  Their choice, thier relationship, their business.  All any of us can do is chime in with something for them to think about while they consider their options. 

Midnight Writer



bignipples2share -> RE: an uncomfortable experience today (11/24/2006 10:58:26 AM)

quote:


I usually find regardless of whether or not your catching flies or not a lot more people might see beyond their "illusions and blindsides" a lot quicker with being lead gently that being pushed from behind.

While I understand your view, I'll add that sometimes people do need an extra jolt. Some work better with receiving a kinda 'tough love' approach, others a gentle nudge; some are capable of providing it, others not. There is a large diversity of people who provide both types, as I believe LA has stated.
I've also seen where LA's approach has worked with many and I’m definitely not in any ‘click’. This is just a point of view as I see it.

To the OP:
You can have the best relationship in the world, but if the world only hears one portion of that world, it’s viewed by the rest of the world only by that portion of what they hear. In other words, 99% is great, 1% is not so great. Everyone else hears about the 1%, that 1% then becomes their 100% view of the situation.
Some business class I had in school 100 someodd years ago said something like: One bad thing said about a product can cancel out ten good comments. I tend to think it works with relationships also. For every bad thing you think about it, think of at least five good things (because you already know there are lots of good things). For every bad, or point of concern you have and voice to your sounding/venting board, maybe say at least ten good things. I’m not sure how to apply it to forums though, but it still seems you don’t want that 1% to be view as the 100%. The other problem with that is, not everyone reads all the threads out there and may only see that 1%.
This brings me back full circle to the ‘in a click’ comment.  Those who have read many of a persons posts, can respond that this newer poster only has seen a limited view of the overall situation and not be in a click.

~Big



BRNaughtyAngel -> RE: an uncomfortable experience today (11/24/2006 10:59:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Of course that's an excellent point.  We are all ultimately responsible for our own fulfillment and must own our own feelings. 

However, I've personally experienced and seen dominants foist this on their subs far too often the idea of "Don't blame ME- I can't make you happy or unhappy, those are YOUR feelings."



Don't mind me, but I wanted to just throw this into the mix...... I am an empath (I know some people don't believe in this stuff, but I am), and it's not something I can control.  I don't have to know someone or even be near them to feel what they are feeling. 

It can become quite overwhelming at times, especially when I can't discern their feelings from my own.  Just imagine having feelings, only they aren't yours... [&:]  If it happens to be people I'm emotionally or intimately close to, the feelings are usually even stronger.  And yes, their feelings or actions often affect mine, even if it has nothing to do with me.

Have I mentioned there are days I'd like to go live in a cave? [&o]

I know this will affect me as a submissive, but exactly how remains to be seen. 

Anyway, sorry for interrupting with my ramblings....



dcnovice -> RE: an uncomfortable experience today (11/24/2006 11:47:59 AM)

Interesting story, and I love your "coexist" button!



dcnovice -> RE: an uncomfortable experience today (11/24/2006 11:50:32 AM)

quote:

is OPOP a usable acronym here?


Works for me. If I knew how to code a superscript, I'd suggest OP squared. [:)]



SamKeithsslave -> RE: an uncomfortable experience today (11/24/2006 2:19:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bignipples2share

quote:


I usually find regardless of whether or not your catching flies or not a lot more people might see beyond their "illusions and blindsides" a lot quicker with being lead gently that being pushed from behind.

While I understand your view, I'll add that sometimes people do need an extra jolt. Some work better with receiving a kinda 'tough love' approach, others a gentle nudge; some are capable of providing it, others not.

Oh I agree, but who decides who is the type that needs a kick or not? And who then decides to be the kicker?
I am reminded of an old Alfred Hitchcock movie "Rope" - in it two young men murder a 'friend', just because they can and they wanted to experience what it was like. Later they posed the idea of a 'murder a moron' day (or something like that - have forgotten exact wording. Jimmy Stewart ( love him!) played some sort of Professor of theirs. He went along with them, but asked "Who gets to decide who dies and who doesnt?". The young men replied "Why the superior, of course", to which he replied "And who decides who is superior?" . I dont know about you, but I would hate having to be the one to decide.

To the OP:
You can have the best relationship in the world, but if the world only hears one portion of that world, it’s viewed by the rest of the world only by that portion of what they hear. In other words, 99% is great, 1% is not so great. Everyone else hears about the 1%, that 1% then becomes their 100% view of the situation.

Very true and the problem with human nature is that it is all to common we openly complain, but rarly openly praise. I know myself, I would complain about my ex to people, never praised him. Eventually a gf asked why I was with him if he was so bad? I then had to come up with some good points. Now I try to praise my partners to people rather than complain.



medievalwench -> RE: an uncomfortable experience today (11/24/2006 4:37:17 PM)

i find that i do have more to post when there are problems, i admit that, the good parts don't lead to my needing to post much as there are no questions there, but in future i will aim to respond more to others where i have adviced that may be useful rather than posting about problems i feel i have; i think that will be better at least for now.
i also need to say, i am not someone for whom harsh words in a response are helpful, they cause me to react defensively and i feel uncomfortable which means that any helpful advice within the response doesn't get through because i am too distracted by the harshness. i am a sensitive soul and constructive criticism is fine but i don't take it well if worded in a manner that seems agressive, its just who i am. my gentle nature is seen as a positive by those who know me in real life, and they don't consider me to be overly touchy .
wench



BRNaughtyAngel -> RE: an uncomfortable experience today (11/24/2006 4:58:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: medievalwench
i also need to say, i am not someone for whom harsh words in a response are helpful, they cause me to react defensively and i feel uncomfortable which means that any helpful advice within the response doesn't get through because i am too distracted by the harshness. i am a sensitive soul and constructive criticism is fine but i don't take it well if worded in a manner that seems agressive, its just who i am. my gentle nature is seen as a positive by those who know me in real life, and they don't consider me to be overly touchy .
wench


I'm the same way wench, so I understand.  Part of it is related to my empathy, but I am very sensitive..., and I always try to be sensitive to the feelings of others, especially when they are sad, confused or in pain.

I hope you and your Master work through this, and I wish you both well.





AquaticSub -> RE: an uncomfortable experience today (11/24/2006 8:48:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: emdoub

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

I think the point is that if the master isn't feeling masterful, then what is the sub supposed to do? Stop being subbly? I don't think most 24/7 TPE relationships have a built in clause for "Sorry, I'm just not feeling like a dom/sub today."

Mostly, they have to have such a clause, because Real Life happens.

Sometimes, the kids are sick, the inlaws are visiting, and it's 2:00 AM - with the alarm going off in 4 hours, and nobody's feeling anything but tired and wretched.  Sometimes, the dom or the sub has a whole new passion for a hobby - Nethack, gardening, getting Senator Wonderful re-elected - and energy goes elsewhere, and isn't available for the relationship.  Just like 'real' people.

Sometimes, going into DomlyDom mode kicks the sub into subspace.  Sometimes, going into SweetSub mode kicks the dom into domspace.  Sometimes, not.  A wise dom knows how to avoid becoming an oppressive dictator.  A wise sub knows how to avoid becoming a black hole of need.

quote:

I will note that I could very well be wrong as I don't know a thing about TPEs from personal experience.


They're not at all like popular fiction.  I can't claim perfection - after all, I'm currently sans subs.  But I lived there for most of a decade - and what made it 24/7 wasn't that it was TPE, day in and day out - it was that it was TPE whenever I wanted it to be.  Every 24/7 couple I know is the same way - nobody has the energy, time, or drive to do d/s on a constant basis for longer than about a month.

(Listens for bubbles popping)

Midnight Writer



*chuckles* No bubbles popping I'm afraid. I'm open-minded enough to when I could be dead wrong (sometimes anyway). From what I've gathered on here and real life, dominants in 24/7 relationships get annoyed when their subs don't feel like being submissive so I supposed it was common.

Knowledge is power!



bignipples2share -> RE: an uncomfortable experience today (11/25/2006 8:25:42 AM)

If half of the people are posting based on the honey theory and the other half in an opposite direction. Is not the individual able to decide which if any of the posts they'll consider applying, or even none of them?
If someone sees a pattern starting, don't they tend to address that pattern?
Your friend did. She asked a very valid question. Had you continued in your same direction of only saying negative things, she probably would have said, either sit on the pot and deal with your choice of a horrible person, or get out. You chose to take heed and start talking nicer about your partner.
I've seen this movie and I do see where you're trying to lead this, but I don’t agree with how you're making your point.
I could also make the point: There are two counselors, one drug addict. The drug addict goes to one that says there, there, life has been so rough for you, let’s have milk and cookies and do you know that these drugs aren’t good for you, you think you can check in to re-hab anytime soon? The other says, get off the damn drugs, or it’s fucking gonna kill ya and get in re-hab right now, I can drop you off on my way to the hospital. Let’s go.

~Big
quote:

ORIGINAL: SamKeithsslave

but who decides who is the type that needs a kick or not? And who then decides to be the kicker?
I am reminded of an old Alfred Hitchcock movie "Rope" - in it two young men murder a 'friend', just because they can and they wanted to experience what it was like. Later they posed the idea of a 'murder a moron' day (or something like that - have forgotten exact wording. Jimmy Stewart ( love him!) played some sort of Professor of theirs. He went along with them, but asked "Who gets to decide who dies and who doesnt?". The young men replied "Why the superior, of course", to which he replied "And who decides who is superior?" . I dont know about you, but I would hate having to be the one to decide.




texancutie -> RE: an uncomfortable experience today (11/25/2006 10:54:10 AM)

Well....a counselor worth their salt would not baby a client with a serious drug habit...lol.  But a great counselor does understand what their client needs during a session.  You gear a counseling session to each particular clients needs and how best you think you can help them.  If what you are doing is not reaching a particular client, you restructure it and come at it from another angle.  It is a dynamic and constantly evolving relationship.  Plus a great counselor has a huge amount of empathy.  You learn what one person needs is very different from another person.  Just like on these forums, what works for one does not work for another.  So sometimes some people don't really need to hear something harsh or "tough lovish". With some people a harsher tone only serves to tear them down a bit.  Just food for thought.  I know being human, I love to hear things in a more positive manner, if I am seeking any kind of help or advice.  I can take the positive and go forward.  Sure there is a time and a place to maybe tell someone who is not getting it, the harsh reality of a situation that is never evolving or getting better...but that is where a good, trusted and respected friend or trusted counselor comes in.  Someone that knows the other person well, and knows that she or he is ready for that kind of advice.



nikaa -> RE: an uncomfortable experience today (11/25/2006 11:03:09 AM)

 
biggnipples2share,


I could also make the point: There are two counselors, one drug addict. The drug addict goes to one that says there, there, life has been so rough for you, let’s have milk and cookies and do you know that these drugs aren’t good for you, you think you can check in to re-hab anytime soon? The other says, get off the damn drugs, or it’s fucking gonna kill ya and get in re-hab right now, I can drop you off on my way to the hospital. Let’s go.

I have to say I have a real issue with this analogy for several reasons.
 
The first being that no one can force anyone to seek help, change their lifestyle, or even get clean.
 
The second being a counsolors job is not to sit in judgement but to help the person being counseled resolve an issue, perhaps even get the root of the issue. Often time with time and compassion.



dawntreader -> RE: an uncomfortable experience today (11/25/2006 11:51:40 AM)

very good story - it certainly made me think :-)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MmakeMme

Sir and I were having a conversation recently. He posed to me a question. "Suppose I asked you to bake me a cake. You did as I asked but it was the worst thing I had ever eaten. Have you been a good sub?"

I replied "I did as you asked but I suppose I failed."

He asked "What do you suppose you could have done?"

I said "I could have asked you what kind of cake you wanted."

He said "Suppose I told you what kind of cake I wanted, and that's what you made for Me, and it was still the worst thing I had ever eaten? Have you been a good sub?"

I pondered and said "Sir, I did as you asked. Perhaps you left out the part about making a ~good~ cake. Yes, I was a good sub."

He asked "Even though I was not pleased with you?"

The tone of this conversation was making me doubt myself. I said "No Sir. I suppose I was not a good sub, even though there is a slimmer chance of snow in hell that I would make anything that would not taste good. I am a good cook."

He said "Indulge me. Suppose the cake was not to My liking. And also suppose I was pissed off at the world that day. Nobody did anything to suit Me. And now your cake has displeased Me. Have you been a good sub?"

I thought for another moment and said "Sir, yes I have been a good sub. I did as You asked and baked the cake You wanted. No one can please anyone all the time."

He smiled and said "And that is what I wanted you to say. You will not please me all the time but the important thing is that you tried. Just because I am not pleased by your effort does not make you a bad sub and does not make me a bad Sir."

In short, we're all human. We have off days. Work the complexities as best you can and remain in open communication. Try the best you can - it is all you can do.



agirl -> RE: an uncomfortable experience today (11/25/2006 2:35:33 PM)

I read through the first pages of the thread and thought that LA was uncharacteristically sarcastic. Her advice was practical and good.....I thought the delivery was unfortunate.

I do not offer advice. I never will, unless I am on an intimate level with a person,( maybe my children or my Mama) and even then I usually only offer my thoughts.

I'm very aware of the fact that there's a human-being reading my words and  however I phrase things, however I put things,  I have the power to impact on someone's feelings.

Well, maybe that's not a big-deal......sometimes I can be forthright and seemingly unfeeling, regardless of my intention.....but I try to keep a lid on that.

Even though I do not care for people on this forum, I know what it's like to live with the result of careless words, placed at the wrong time.

I also know that once you've let words fly, they have a momentum of their own......and I have witnessed the catastrophe that can occur.

agirl
















mnottertail -> RE: an uncomfortable experience today (11/25/2006 2:38:19 PM)

And I cannot commisserate with any aspect of this thread, since I don't eat cake and would have told you to make a pie.

Ron



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