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With the rampant spread of disease .... - 2/13/2005 11:42:30 PM   
GrandpaLash


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Taken from a post on a thread about toys, but it raises for me a serious question.

How many people do you know personally who have been infected with anything that can be directly attributed to contaminated toys? I don't mean possibly apocryphal stories about your sister-in-law's nieces' boyfriend's best mate, I mean personally known to you and who has personally told you how he/she got infected.

A subsidiary question: how many people do you know personally, other than in the male gay or I/V drug scenes who have contracted Hiv/AIDSfrom unprotected sex?

Grandpa Lash

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RE: With the rampant spread of disease .... - 2/13/2005 11:53:15 PM   
MzBerlin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GrandpaLash

Taken from a post on a thread about toys, but it raises for me a serious question.

How many people do you know personally who have been infected with anything that can be directly attributed to contaminated toys? I don't mean possibly apocryphal stories about your sister-in-law's nieces' boyfriend's best mate, I mean personally known to you and who has personally told you how he/she got infected.

A subsidiary question: how many people do you know personally, other than in the male gay or I/V drug scenes who have contracted Hiv/AIDSfrom unprotected sex?

Grandpa Lash


Lash-
I know several people in the industry that have contracted VD from unclean toys.
Also- I was wondering why you didn't want to count male gays?
B

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RE: With the rampant spread of disease .... - 2/14/2005 12:11:11 AM   
GrandpaLash


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Because I am trying to get an idea of how many non drug-using heteresexual people are contracting Hiv from sexual sources. Unfortunate as it may be, in Western countries Hiv is still very much a gay disease, with I/V drug users being the second most likely victims, and sexual partners of same are 3rd. I am interested in the risk to heterosexuals not involved in either scene.

When you say 'in the industry', what exactly do you mean?

Grandpa Lash

Expanded (edited) by GL

< Message edited by GrandpaLash -- 2/14/2005 12:14:32 AM >


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RE: With the rampant spread of disease .... - 2/14/2005 12:24:16 AM   
RealityFix


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I don't really think that documented cases are the real issue.

I think that virtually any sort of fluid transfer is risky with unprotected sex in this day and age..Which is why promiscuity is just plain foolish.

And I have news for you,it's cetainly no longer a gay disease. The biggest pupulation that is now contracting it is het teens. Because the current right wing political administration refuses to recognize that they WILL have sex,and refuses to provide them with condoms. So a religious agenda is killing our young people.

And hep c can live outside of the body in human fluids for amazingly long periods of time..days even. So my question would have to be,why does it seem you are trying to MINIMIZE the need for cleaning things properly between users?

< Message edited by RealityFix -- 2/14/2005 12:27:01 AM >

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RE: With the rampant spread of disease .... - 2/14/2005 12:26:43 AM   
GrandpaLash


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityFix

So my question would have to be,why does it seem you are trying to MINIMIZE the need for cleaning things properly between users?


Pardon me?

Grandpa Lash

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RE: With the rampant spread of disease .... - 2/14/2005 12:29:03 AM   
RealityFix


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My question would be,why are you asking for documentation about the possibility of spreading diseases this way?

It's obvious that it spread to the het population through bisexuals, is it not?

Hiv is decimating entire regions of africa and asia. You want to guess who it strikes the heardest there? HETEROSEXUALS. Poor people who DON"T USE ANY PROTECTION.

Now what really gets my hackles up, is when someone seems as if they are trying to rationalize ANY disease as belonging to a specific population. The very reason std's spread is through this very sort of rationalization, and stupidity of thinking "It can't happen to me, because."

It can, and it will ,if you take needless risks with your health. I happen to be very phobic about std's. This is why I DON"T HAVE THEM. This is why I shun casual sex and play.

This is why I practice STRICT monogamy, and am patiently looking for ONE stable relationship with a person I can fulfill mutual needs with. Rather than slutting about ,having "fun" by playing russian roulette with a gun with five bullets in the chambers.

I have no delusions about the fact that it CAN happen to me, if I have sex with the wrong person. Because you are also having sex indirectly with everyone THEY have had it with as well.

Never forget that.

< Message edited by RealityFix -- 2/14/2005 1:04:42 AM >

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RE: With the rampant spread of disease .... - 2/14/2005 1:10:08 AM   
GrandpaLash


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No, your question was: why does it seem you are trying to MINIMIZE the need for cleaning things properly between users?

And I wonder where you got that concept from, because there certainly isn't anything in my post to suggest it.

As for your other point, I am fortunate enough to live in a country where the religious Right doesn't have a great deal of power (yet), and HIV education here is excellent. We had one new reported case of HIV in 2003 in a population of 20 million, and the epedemiology is still as I stated above.

The HIV issue, in fact the entire VD issue is similar to the heroin issue. They are what sociologists call 'moral panics', where a genuine but rare (in real terms) issue is blown out of all proportion to its actual incidence. And it is no coincidence that the three are sexual morality/human 'weakness' issues, and fall within the purvey of the religious and fundamentalist Right.

Now before anyone jumps on me again for 'minimising' their seriousness, I will mention two things from my own life.

First, my eldest son died as a direct result of his heroin addiction, and I am intimately aware of the heartbreak and pain this curse can bring. But I am also irretriveably convinced that the problem is not so much the drug itself as the social conditions brought about by moral panics that allow right-wing 'solutions' that refuse to face the realities, and create a sub-culture of degradation, crime, and excessive vulnerability, much as you point out re HIV.

Second, in the early to mid 90s I was intimately involved in the HIV issue, since my then partner's best friend had gotten an unwelcome Xmas present at a bathhouse. He was incredibly tenacious, and finally died with as much dignity as is possible in those circumstances, and we are all incredibly proud of him. But as an adjunct to my involvement in his care, I became heavily involved in public education about HIV, and became also very familiar with the epidemiology. I am the last person to advocate carelessness in one's sexual life, but the facts are, unless things have changed dramatically in the last year or so, that heterosexuals not involved in the drug scene are at infinitesimal risk of getting HIV, unless they are ferociously promiscuous.

But even then, I have been involved in small population alternative scenes for 30 years, the sort of scenes the inhabitants often refer to as incestuous, and in all that time, I know of only one person who contracted a serious disease, syphillis, and he was the most promiscuous of us all. He was also successfully treated.

I am not at all attempting to minimise the seriousness of any of these things, and I personally take care to clean my toys and vet my lovers carefully, but I get so annoyed at seeing so much exaggerated fear about things that are really, for most of us, incredibly unlikely events.

Grandpa Lash



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RE: With the rampant spread of disease .... - 2/14/2005 1:11:03 AM   
NATI


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Yep. Toys can spread disease. It's not a good idea to use single toys on multiple people. I find the single most likely factor in the spread of disease is people. People do not educate themselves, and people have ridiculous defecits when it comes to memory. The AIDS epidemic of the 80's and 90's created a massive push to educate the population as a whole and teach the concept of 'safer sex'.

This is an interesting topic in light of the news article I read today WARNING that there is a new and exceedingly virulent strain of HIV that was just diagnosed in a man in NY. The thing that makes this strain so alarming is the repidity of its onset (only 2 months between exposure and full blown AIDS) and the fact that there is NOTHING the doctors have that will treat it.

Toys can infect your partner if they came in touch with anyone else.

Men - you STILL need to WRAP that bad-boy up. 'Pulling out' aint gonna do it.

Anyone who comes in contact with a woman's puss needs to use a dental dam.

STDs are here, and they are here to stay.

Many of these diseases can live silently and produce few or no symptoms in the host.

Soap and water alone will not be enough to kill some of these diseases.

Statistics over 'which' group is most likely to get any one of these diseases detracts from the main issue, and that is that ANYONE can get any one of these diseases. All of these diseases are opportunistic. All they need is one host and one victim. And if you don't have it - guess into which category you fall?

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RE: With the rampant spread of disease .... - 2/14/2005 1:27:13 AM   
NATI


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quote:

but I get so annoyed at seeing so much exaggerated fear about things that are really, for most of us, incredibly unlikely events.


I think 'respect' is the far better term. Respect these diseases for what they are and what they can do. I watched the epidemic of HIV/AIDS as it swept through my community, and I absolutely believe that these diseases are worthy of considerable respect.


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RE: With the rampant spread of disease .... - 2/14/2005 1:30:54 AM   
MzBerlin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GrandpaLash

Because I am trying to get an idea of how many non drug-using heteresexual people are contracting Hiv from sexual sources. Unfortunate as it may be, in Western countries Hiv is still very much a gay disease, with I/V drug users being the second most likely victims, and sexual partners of same are 3rd. I am interested in the risk to heterosexuals not involved in either scene.

When you say 'in the industry', what exactly do you mean?

Grandpa Lash

Expanded (edited) by GL



A GAY DISEASE?? You seriously need a reality check!! HIV is being spread the fastest among African American females. A Gay Disease, my ass. For a kinky person, you sure are close minded.

I'm a bondage/fetish/erotic model.

Berlin

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also- you can catch me on www.ksexradio.com every tuesday. I co-host Baadmasters' Dungeon!!

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RE: With the rampant spread of disease .... - 2/14/2005 1:32:06 AM   
MzBerlin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityFix

I don't really think that documented cases are the real issue.

I think that virtually any sort of fluid transfer is risky with unprotected sex in this day and age..Which is why promiscuity is just plain foolish.

And I have news for you,it's cetainly no longer a gay disease. The biggest pupulation that is now contracting it is het teens. Because the current right wing political administration refuses to recognize that they WILL have sex,and refuses to provide them with condoms. So a religious agenda is killing our young people.

And hep c can live outside of the body in human fluids for amazingly long periods of time..days even. So my question would have to be,why does it seem you are trying to MINIMIZE the need for cleaning things properly between users?


cheers!!

_____________________________

new pictures!! www.ropexpert.com
also- you can catch me on www.ksexradio.com every tuesday. I co-host Baadmasters' Dungeon!!

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RE: With the rampant spread of disease .... - 2/14/2005 1:52:05 AM   
MsPink


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Salutations all
My first posting, maybe, My only one, who knows????. However I was perusing the forums and came upon this thread, and FELT TOTALLY COMPELLED to SAY SOMETHING!!!!!!!!, AND being the totally self opinionated Ms that I am...... and I could not agree more with GrandpaLash. Anyone, and I mean anyone, who plays with toys that have been elsewhere, is.....hmmmmm, dont want to appear "over the top", but, a fool, a TOTAL one at that. If u allow any implement that has been "used else where, and on god knows who", to be inserted into any orrifice, WITHOUT it being AUTOCLAVED (Properly sterilised). C'mon people!!!!!!! Show some SELF RESPECT, be it Dom/sub/slave WHOEVER. Why only today, here in Perth, Western Australia, they "broadcast" the FACT that there is a new and "deadlier" strain of HIV that is RESISTANT TO CURRENT AVAILABLE DRUGS. Don't mean to be a "scare Monger", but I do PERSONALLY know of a couple of CLOSE FRIENDS of mine, (M&F), who have caught an undesirable "condition" through allowing someone else to insert toy/toys, and I CAN TELL u, NOT A NICE SIGHT. Well that's it for Me.


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RE: With the rampant spread of disease .... - 2/14/2005 2:22:22 AM   
MzBerlin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MsPink

Salutations all
My first posting, maybe, My only one, who knows????. However I was perusing the forums and came upon this thread, and FELT TOTALLY COMPELLED to SAY SOMETHING!!!!!!!!, AND being the totally self opinionated Ms that I am...... and I could not agree more with GrandpaLash. Anyone, and I mean anyone, who plays with toys that have been elsewhere, is.....hmmmmm, dont want to appear "over the top", but, a fool, a TOTAL one at that. If u allow any implement that has been "used else where, and on god knows who", to be inserted into any orrifice, WITHOUT it being AUTOCLAVED (Properly sterilised). C'mon people!!!!!!! Show some SELF RESPECT, be it Dom/sub/slave WHOEVER. Why only today, here in Perth, Western Australia, they "broadcast" the FACT that there is a new and "deadlier" strain of HIV that is RESISTANT TO CURRENT AVAILABLE DRUGS. Don't mean to be a "scare Monger", but I do PERSONALLY know of a couple of CLOSE FRIENDS of mine, (M&F), who have caught an undesirable "condition" through allowing someone else to insert toy/toys, and I CAN TELL u, NOT A NICE SIGHT. Well that's it for Me.



MsPink-
I think that you're missing the point of the post. He was inferring that it doesn't happen. (If I'm wrong, Lash, feel free to correct me, but that's how I took the first post.) I don't think that anyone here is advocating the use of uncleaned toys. Also- if you AUTOCLAVED a toy, it would melt. Toys DO need to be sanitized. It would be impossible to sterilize a toy.
Thats it.
B

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RE: With the rampant spread of disease .... - 2/14/2005 2:34:37 AM   
GrandpaLash


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MzBerlin



A GAY DISEASE?? You seriously need a reality check!! HIV is being spread the fastest among African American females. A Gay Disease, my ass. For a kinky person, you sure are close minded.

I'm a bondage/fetish/erotic model.

Berlin


Oh for fuck's sake, I did not say that AIDS is a gay disease, and if you'd read my later post you should certainly have understood that. I am QUITE aware that it is not a gay disease, that was never the point of my question. I am simply interested, in this instance, in how many ordinary heterosexuals do you know who have contracted the disease from sexual contact.

And no, I did not ask what YOU do, I was interested in what you meant by those 'in the industry'. For instance, are you referring to pro-Dom/mes or pro-subs, whose activities (AND I AM NOT DISRESPECTING THEM IN THE SLIGHTEST BY SAYING THIS) expose them to considerably more risk than your average kinkster? If not, how did they get exposed?

My mind is perfectly open thank you, but perhaps you should open your eyes when you read.

Grandpa Lash

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RE: With the rampant spread of disease .... - 2/14/2005 2:37:25 AM   
GrandpaLash


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MsPink

... and I could not agree more with GrandpaLash.


And I thought Mz Berlin needed to open her eyes when she reads LOL. No, in fact ms pink, you couldn't disagree with me more.

Grandpa Lash

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RE: With the rampant spread of disease .... - 2/14/2005 2:43:12 AM   
MzBerlin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GrandpaLash

quote:

ORIGINAL: MzBerlin



A GAY DISEASE?? You seriously need a reality check!! HIV is being spread the fastest among African American females. A Gay Disease, my ass. For a kinky person, you sure are close minded.

I'm a bondage/fetish/erotic model.

Berlin


Oh for fuck's sake, I did not say that AIDS is a gay disease, and if you'd read my later post you should certainly have understood that. I am QUITE aware that it is not a gay disease, that was never the point of my question. I am simply interested, in this instance, in how many ordinary heterosexuals do you know who have contracted the disease from sexual contact.

And no, I did not ask what YOU do, I was interested in what you meant by those 'in the industry'. For instance, are you referring to pro-Dom/mes or pro-subs, whose activities (AND I AM NOT DISRESPECTING THEM IN THE SLIGHTEST BY SAYING THIS) expose them to considerably more risk than your average kinkster? If not, how did they get exposed?

My mind is perfectly open thank you, but perhaps you should open your eyes when you read.

Grandpa Lash



Unfortunate as it may be, in Western countries Hiv is still very much a gay disease, with I/V drug users being the second most likely victims, and sexual partners of same are 3rd. I am interested in the risk to heterosexuals not involved in either scene.



As you will see above, you said that HIV was a GAY DISEASE. I can read and interpret fairly well for a southern gal...
Also, by the "industry" I mean the adult industry. Because myself and the ladies that I work with don't do 'hardcore' we are not required to have AIM tests. Toys are sometimes used on shoots and (apparently) hadn't been cleaned with metrocide properly in the instances I'm referring to.
Calm down!!
Berlin

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RE: With the rampant spread of disease .... - 2/14/2005 3:10:28 AM   
GrandpaLash


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MzBerlin

Unfortunate as it may be, in Western countries Hiv is still very much a gay disease, with I/V drug users being the second most likely victims, and sexual partners of same are 3rd. I am interested in the risk to heterosexuals not involved in either scene.

As you will see above, you said that HIV was a GAY DISEASE. I can read and interpret fairly well for a southern gal...



Am I mad? What I am saying there, and I thought it was so obvious as not to need pointing out, is that statistically in the West many more gay men fall to the disease than any other group. Thus, effectively, I can make that statement without any of the bigoted bullshit that so often goes along with gay-bashing and the religious Right. How is it you can't tell that from the overall tone of my posts? In fact, your first reaction was to call me a close-minded person - having made a snap judgement on a total misunderstanding of what I said.

Western figures are totally unlike in Africa, where it is most definitely across the full spectrum. And in the last 2 decaders it has begun to spread in the West heterosexually originally through IV drug users and their lovers. Now, if what you say is true, it is affecting African American women in the US. I wonder if I need to draw the obvious parallel with drug abuse and underprivileged socio-economic status, assuming that you're not talking about affluent middle class African Americans.

But to reiterate the point of my OP. I do NOT minimise any of the risks we have discussed in this thread, they are all real, and by my own experience, carry enormous personal tragedy with them in many cases. What I am trying to get at is the fact that real or not, these issues and others like them are exaggerated out of all proportion to their actual occurrence. In my circles in my country, I've got a far better chance of winning the lottery than I have of catching HIV.

Now back to the toys. From what you have said I am assuming that these were props and not the property of any individual, and that is precisely the sort of real risk that I will take all reasonable steps to avoid. For that matter, there have been several short-term relationships in my life where I have chosen to use condoms because I wasn't entirely confident of my partners' histories.

But in reality, how many of the ordinary members of a site like this or a scene like this are likely to be exposed to such poorly maintained toys? Which is where my initial question came in. The dangers are grossly exaggerated and this exaggeration creates an atmosphere of paranoia and mistrust. We don't need it.

Grandpa Lash

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RE: With the rampant spread of disease .... - 2/14/2005 3:21:57 AM   
Moleculor


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It's interesting that no one has actually answered his question yet.

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RE: With the rampant spread of disease .... - 2/14/2005 3:28:05 AM   
GrandpaLash


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moleculor

It's interesting that no one has actually answered his question yet.


Nor, I imagine, will they, because they can't. Unless they come up with more examples like Mz Berlin's, which are not within the scope of my enquiry because they are special cases.

Grandpa Lash

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RE: With the rampant spread of disease .... - 2/14/2005 5:49:32 AM   
MizSuz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: GrandpaLash

But in reality, how many of the ordinary members of a site like this or a scene like this are likely to be exposed to such poorly maintained toys? Which is where my initial question came in. The dangers are grossly exaggerated and this exaggeration creates an atmosphere of paranoia and mistrust. We don't need it.




I know people in the scene who have Hep C, but the people I know who have it most likely got it from medical treatments (blood transfusions - and/ or organ transplants).

I do a lot of potentially risky activities in my preferred forms of play. Needles, scalpals, blood, etc. It's safe to say that my experience is that you're about as likely to put yourself at risk with these sorts of activities as you are working in a hospital in a professional capacity. Accidental finger sticks with used needles and other sharps happen.

I was a pro domme for a number of years, as well. I know ONE person who contracted something through scene activities and it was an horrid scrotal and testicular infection due to a saline infusion that was done with tap water (the water had been put into the IV bag by someone thinking the bag was a prop and not meant to be introduced to the body, someone else used the bag for the infusion). This occurred at a house, not a private dungeon, and was more about lack of communication than anything else.

As often as I have seen people tell others they can 'sterilize' their toys and such with alcohol (and this statement ALWAYS makes me shudder - it is soooooo wrong); as often as I've seen people move right onto equipment (not insertible sex toys) immediately after another without benefit of ANY cleaning or simply using alcohol and thinking they were doing something other than just cleaning the body oil and grime off the equipment; as often as I have seen and/or used toys that HAD been used to draw blood on one person be used on another after a 'cleaning' - To my knowledge I know of NO ONE who has ever contracted a communicable illness from a toy. Can it happen? Sure. Does it happen often? My experience, and it's only my experience, is that it doesn't happen or it happens rarely.

Now, I'm not talking about fucking and sucking here. I'm talking about S&M practices. The people that I have cared for that did have AIDs were in high risk groups. The thing to remember is that what constitutes the 'high risk' groups tends to change with whatever group is currently the fastest growing population of new cases. Years ago in the U.S. that WAS the gay male population, but the evolution of the spread has gone through many mutations. For a long time it was heterosexual women who were the highest risk group - and that was because of unprotected sex with partners who were high risk participants. At the time that was bisexual male partners who were not forthcoming about their sexuality in their 'monogomous' relationships more so than IV drug users. I'm sure those figures have waxed and waned to some extent as well.

I do a LOT of invasive stuff. Things that are to be inserted that can't accommodate condoms are STERILIZED (I'm talking chemical disinfectants, followed by proper packaging and finally pressurized steam). Sharps are for ONE TIME USE (hell, during the course of a small cutting I can go through a dozen blades). But I know many people who simply wash a steel sound and/ or (shudder) clean it with alcohol, put it back in the nifty little leather case it comes in (I usually throw those cases away - even on new sets) and use it on the next person in line. I know of nobody who has contracted anything worse than a UTI with these poor practices. I would not do this sort of thing, but I know MANY who do. Unfortunately it's more common than the more fastidious sterilizing practices.

I've never seen anyone get an infection from a flogging or a singletailing (that went to blood). I've never seen anyone get an infection from a cane that had previously been used to draw blood.

In answer to your question - I personally know of no one who has contracted a communicable disease through S&M practices (that doesn't include fucking and sucking).

Now, that's just my (admittedly limited) experience - take it for what it's worth.

_____________________________

“The more you love, the more you can love—and the more intensely you love. Nor is there any limit on how many you can love. If a person had time enough, he could love all of that majority who are decent and just.”
- Robert Heinlein

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