RE: A sense of "Entitlement?"

RE: A sense of "Entitlement?" (Full Version)

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LadyEllen -> RE: A sense of "Entitlement?" (12/3/2006 1:13:38 PM)
Just going back to the boss's son thing; I founded my company three years ago, and its now multi-national. I have no degree, though finances apart, I could have obtained a law degree at Manchester. To be perfectly frank, my eldest UM is never going to get a degree. He's just not cut out for academia. My younger UM is more academic, and could probably get herself a degree. I intend to retire in about 12 years, and my UMs will inherit the company. However, they will not run the company, until they have each shown through employment with others first and then my company itself at the most junior level, that they possess what it takes. A degree or lack of, will not determine appointment to have any role in the management, and neither will their genetics. Running a company requires so many diverse skills and so much knowledge that only real time experience and success can provide any guidance as to whether someone is suitable. Getting it wrong is disastrous, and I do wonder at companies who appoint people to management just because they are the boss's son/daughter etc. E

philosophy -> RE: A sense of "Entitlement?" (12/3/2006 1:38:24 PM)
fast reply ....a sense of entitlement is wrong no matter how it is engendered.......whether it comes from having a degree, an accident of birth or even from being a military vet. It all comes down to the job in hand and the ability and willingness to do that job.

popeye1250 -> RE: A sense of "Entitlement?" (12/3/2006 1:46:25 PM)
LadyEllen, yup, it's EXPERIENCE that counts. Like I said earlier, you can have all the degrees you want but when you go to work for a company they teach you "Their Way" and in most cases you really don't need a degree to do those types of jobs. And most companies these days have ongoing training programs where you learn the companies' products, services, sales techniques and other things just like your company.

popeye1250 -> RE: A sense of "Entitlement?" (12/3/2006 1:56:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: philosophy fast reply ....a sense of entitlement is wrong no matter how it is engendered.......whether it comes from having a degree, an accident of birth or even from being a military vet. It all comes down to the job in hand and the ability and willingness to do that job. philosophy, that's true. Back when I was selling insurance who do you think went to upper management, me who sold maybe $3 m in policies and had a degree or the guys who sold $10-$12 m in policies and didn't have degrees? It's performance that breeds success.

Lorelei115 -> RE: A sense of "Entitlement?" (12/3/2006 2:35:58 PM)
In my industry, we tend to go for the people WITHOUT degrees. They're the ones who are usually better trainable and don't think they know it all already. I agree that it is experience that counts in a job, however, I think a lot of employers use a degree as a sort of "provable" experience. After all, you can say you've read books or done this or done that, but in an application process there's no way to prove that. A degree is like someone else saying "Yes, this person has learned about these specific things." I also find it hard to believe that anyone thinks they are "entitled" to anything. What breeds this sort of attitude, do you think?

AquaticSub -> RE: A sense of "Entitlement?" (12/3/2006 3:15:54 PM)
~Fast Reply~ I understand the desire to pitch a fit. Watching everyone I know who has graduate struggle to find a job, I understand the frustration of working your butt off to get through college, pay off loans, and then not have the damn thing make a bit of difference. Still, her behavior is inexcusable. Right now it feels like going to college is a calculated risk. You are betting that the degree you will earn is going to give you more earning power then the life experience you could get spending those four or five years in the work force.

meatcleaver -> RE: A sense of "Entitlement?" (12/3/2006 3:21:26 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AquaticSub You are betting that the degree you will earn is going to give you more earning power then the life experience you could get spending those four or five years in the work force. More and more people are graduating and hence holding a degree. It's inevitable that a degree will be devalued as the key to getting a job with a higher salary, it's like too much money in the economy, inflation. In Britain now you have a better earning potential with a skill such as plumbing, brick laying or as a joiner etc. It all boils down to the falacy that a degree is a must, it all depends on the subject. Humanities degrees are handed out like they are torn off a toilet roll.

ChiCouple -> RE: A sense of "Entitlement?" (12/3/2006 4:18:55 PM)
Many occupations, like mine, do not require a college degree to be able to experience success. However it is absoloutely ignorant to suggest that one is better off to ignore a continuing education. Unfortunately for far too many, the realization sets in that what their heart pulls them towards requires a degree of proficiency and prior knowleddge that cannot or is simply not expected to be provided by the employer. For these people who are not sales inclined or self starters requires them to go back to school or work for 8 bucks an hour at Walmart. Your argument ignores the working class poor. Your example of a plumber or someone who has a trade fails to recognize that all have a lengthy apprenticeship that one must pass through to enable them to make a decent or better living wage. Very few people in this world wake up and smile and say "they are going to work." The best way to achieve that is to have the ability to listen to your heart and secondly the intelligence and desire to achieve the level of education to make it possible. By having the education under your belt does make it easier to transition from one career to the next. To argue anything else shows an inability to reason,,,,Yes it's true to be successful one does not need to go on to school....but for most that will be the hardest possible route. My two cents. Chiguy P.S. Jesus please protect me from your followers.

ownedgirlie -> RE: A sense of "Entitlement?" (12/3/2006 5:20:32 PM)
I agree that higher education is a good thing, although not always available to everyone. I also think that anyone who feels entitled to things will, at times, be sorely disappointed in life.

popeye1250 -> RE: A sense of "Entitlement?" (12/3/2006 5:39:39 PM)
Well, I'd have traded that business degree for being a great salesman which I wasn't and have been making $200k instead of $35-$40k that I was making. That was decent money 20 years ago so I can't complain but nothing like the super salesmen used to earn. I was a very "average" salesman. Must be nice to make $5,000 per week!

sweetnurseBBW -> RE: A sense of "Entitlement?" (12/3/2006 6:12:43 PM)
People in upper management should have manners and people skills. Immature, rude people have no place in management. Looks like she did choose the right person.

juliaoceania -> RE: A sense of "Entitlement?" (12/3/2006 7:19:25 PM)
quote: Julia, why all your hostility towards veterans? They aren't the enemy. Hmmmm, if I am not saying veterans are better and superior to the rest of humanity I am against them? I am not against them or for them. I have volunteered with disablied vets, and I do buy their trinkets because our government lets them down after promising them the moon. I would say you have something against academics far more than I have a gripe with vets. BTW, I graduated with a 3.9 GPA, I have two degrees, and I did graduate level research according to more than one of my professors. I have several academic awards. I worked my tail end off, and it seems that you are dismissive of those who accomplished things academically. I have not dismissed the accomplishment of vets, I just do not feel they are superior to other people. I do not feel I am superior to other people. I do not think that people who are talented, intelligent, rich, famous, beautiful, or any other description are superior to others... but I am not dismissive of their accomplishments either. I see a lot of dismissiveness about the work that some people do because you do not value it, well fine by me, but I find it rather amusing that you think I have a beef with vets just because I do not put them on a pedestal.

JohnSteed1967 -> RE: A sense of "Entitlement?" (12/3/2006 7:21:18 PM)
not a 2.9 two and nearly 3 college degrees

Sinergy -> RE: A sense of "Entitlement?" (12/3/2006 7:50:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RiotGirl College isnt about what you learn.. its about the piece of paper. As much as it sucks, that piece of paper matters in the right circles in the real world. Some places it doesnt.. but in others you wont get anywhere with out it. It lends......... credibility. Hello A/all, I disagree with the idea that my BA degree is just a sheet of paper completely. Yes, I do have a degree in a branch of history that will get me a nice job at McDonalds. On the other hand, I learned research skills doing that attempting to prove points (which I often found in my research that I was completely wrong in my premise) which allowed me transfer those skills to computers in order to become an expert on a certain operating system to the point where I knew more than the computer experts sent as consultants to our company. Additionally, I could rewrite the ignorant twaddle produced by the people with Masters and PhDs in computer engineering, graphic design, microchip design, etc., in such a way that it was understandable by everybody else (including people with similar degrees as the cretins who wrote their gibberish) and due to my research and evaluation skills (learned during my education) I could even understand or make helpful suggestions to the researchers of how to make a coherent point. While I already knew how to think, I suppose, prior to attending college. Gaining a undergraduate and some graduate level education allowed me to organize my thoughts and research to arrive at a particular conclusion. Additionally, it taught me the value of fully researching aspects of the subject I was reporting on so I could understand and answer those who disagreed with it. As far as points made in other posts, law school teaches a person to do extensive legal research on a subject and then argue both sides of an issue. One of the things I was told when a person I was close to was in law school is that the first day in litigation class they were told "The truth is irrelevant." What law school, particularly litigation, teaches people how to effectively research and argue their position. Since one is paid to argue a certain (the client's) position, having strong opinions is not conducive to continued employment. This is one of the main reasons I did not go to law school. I could learn how to argue points I dont agree with convincingly, but that sort of talent would make me want to stand upwind of myself. What this means is that a person who goes to law school to be a litigator learns fairly quickly that the ends justify the means, and they had better fully research a subject so they can argue with those who disagree with it. A good litigator knows to never ask a question unless they know the answer they are going to get. Transfer this to convincing people to vote for you, and one gets the ingredients to building a successful professional politician. Do I like that sort of person? No. Do I understand that sort of person? Yes. Clear as mud? Sinergy

Sinergy -> RE: A sense of "Entitlement?" (12/3/2006 7:53:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lorelei115 In my industry, we tend to go for the people WITHOUT degrees. They're the ones who are usually better trainable and don't think they know it all already. When I would interview people to work in my computer facilities, I would ignore discussions about their operating system experience or degrees or whatever and ask questions like "What would you do to find out the number of gas stations in California?" I want to see how their mind approaches solving an abstract problem... Sinergy

Sinergy -> RE: A sense of "Entitlement?" (12/3/2006 7:56:39 PM)
Hello A/all, Having worked on a lot of military bases with military types, I would disagree that military experience results in a person capable of reasoning abstract problems. Trying to get them to understand the operating system and the way it worked, I found out that the vast majority of them live for the procedure, and anything which occurred which wasnt covered under procedure 94.3021.a.3 or whatever would cause the entire operation to ground to a halt. This sort of approach to dealing with fighting fires, researching and fixing problems, etc., simply does not work. Just me, could be wrong, but there you go. Sinergy

mnottertail -> RE: A sense of "Entitlement?" (12/3/2006 8:12:28 PM)
I used to have jobs like you all talk about, but I don't have a degree, and it hurts..the box I work on AS400, iSeries and/or i5 I have been with since its inception, with its predecessors and so on, but to get past the 23 year old college grad in HR or the whatever, they are going to go the big route and you are wasted out of hand, because with 23 years experience, and a college degree face off, well it only makes sense (and we are talking same dollars here)......What experience do you have with JDE one world/ Oh, thats financials and HR and Manufacturing and other silly shit all glommed together and it is a pain but an average package, I know what a debit and credit is............. Oh, explain the procedure you will use in Project Management...no, better yet, tell me your experience with Six Sigma........well, GE wanted to hire me for black belt training some years ago, and I took a pass, probably a mistake, however; six sigma companies are provably behind the curve in profits from those who do not use it, a bankrupt idea overall...............Oh, how about IBM and RUP, well, the rational unified process, and I don't really remember the official steps by their name, because it is a waste of brain but the bottom line is --- rapid prototyping, throw it up, then recycle and the bottom line is time--much like agile development (Oh, thats wrong--- yeah, whatever, but they are all facets of the same thing, understand the fuckin business in the first place)......... So at many levels, this entire idea is incorrect. There may be one or two that want good people, but the safe and stupid take the biggest cake. Ron

ownedgirlie -> RE: A sense of "Entitlement?" (12/3/2006 8:16:58 PM)
Hey Ron, you interested in CNC Administration for E1 (no one really uses One World anymore, do they?)? And let me know if you got past that last package build because it nearly kicked our asses. And I don't care if you have a degree or not for that one, because when the work needs to be done, it needs to be done. Our current CNC administrator worked way up through the ranks and is one hell of an employee. We had to let his degreed counterpart go because he just didn't know that much. Like I said, entitlement can get ya nowhere but disappointed. PS: Come out for some consulting work and I'll get ya that eel, lol.

mnottertail -> RE: A sense of "Entitlement?" (12/3/2006 8:49:25 PM)
If its on an AS400 and I can see the code, I am your boy. Eels a poppin' Ron CNC I have seen and understand, but I abhor cutting parts.

ownedgirlie -> RE: A sense of "Entitlement?" (12/3/2006 8:58:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail If its on an AS400 and I can see the code, I am your boy. Eels a poppin' Ron CNC I have seen and understand, but I abhor cutting parts. It is indeed on an AS400. I'll order up. [;)]

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