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RE: "Forcing" someone - 12/8/2006 5:21:10 PM

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When I offered myself to him; I became property; I gave up all rights; willingly and consentually. Because of this, he does not have to 'force' me to do anything. I have two choices. I can follow orders; or I can be punished, and then follow the orders.

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RE: "Forcing" someone - 12/8/2006 5:24:18 PM

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MasterFireMaam, I much agree with your original post here. It echoes my sentiments exactly.

A person's flesh can at times be forced as it's mindless mass, but a *person* cannot be.

I do enjoy using the illusion of "force" in power play, though.

(in reply to MasterFireMaam)

RE: "Forcing" someone - 12/8/2006 6:29:14 PM

Rover

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There are those that enjoy the use of force, and there are those that enjoy being forced. I'm not sure that is compatible with a sustainable long term relationship.

Personally, I have no interest in a power struggle. If someone isn't willing to give me control consensually and happily, then we're not compatible. No hard feelings, it's just time to move on.

John

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RE: "Forcing" someone - 12/8/2006 7:17:55 PM

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thanks master fire for a thought provoking topic. most of the argument has alreadly been laid out well by others much more loquacious than i. however, never afraid to jump in after the fact...

while on a physical level, i can be forced to submit to physical acts once restrained, what i think many are getting at is the "first cause" argument, analogous to the argument used for the existence of god (as i remember from a philosophy of religion class many moons ago). at some point leading up to that position of being "forced," i made decisions that put me in that position. while this is a rather abstract way of saying "i made a choice, the result of which was enduring _______ against my will," ultimately i live my life with that understanding. i am never a victim. i have always made a choice, and thus have to deal with the consequences thereof.

i think what you were getting at was the question of whether or not i can truly exert my will over another, irrespective of their consent. i'll leave the "gun to head" argument alone, but suggest that in the context of bdsm, unless a submissive has been conditioned to be unable to choose, which is possible, they still ulitmately have the choice whether or not to obey. thus coercion yes, force no. the dilemma as i see it lies in the fact that some submissives are unwilling or unable to say no. it was stated well above, that the onus then is upon me to be sensitive to that fact. if a dominant is not being sane (which happens all too frequently, it seems), then they are unable to distinguish the point where a sub is unable to say no. pushing things too far is the result, but again, the submissive may have been coerced/ condioned to the point where the are unable to rationally say no.

wow, mighty rambling post. excuses in advance, i have a wicked cold. considering sticking a vacuum cleaner wand up my nose...

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RE: "Forcing" someone - 12/23/2006 11:56:48 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam

My thoughts: In the end, we cannot force anyone to do anything, nor can we be forced if we truly, truly don't want to do it. There are consequences for choosing not to, but, we can choose those. Case in point: you can hold a gun to my head and tell me I have to do something in order to live. I have the choice to do it or be shot. Same thing if you help the gun on someone else and told me that they'd be shot if I didn't comply. It would all depend on what I was willing to "sell" (doing whatever) in order to get what I wanted (life) that would define my willingness to be "forced". But, in the end, it's MY choice to do, or not...not your choice...you've merely uped the ante and have, or haven't, convinced me that it's worth it.

Master Fire

But in such situations, you've already been forced to make a "choice"... unless you chose to be in that situation to begin with

(in reply to MasterFireMaam)

RE: "Forcing" someone - 12/24/2006 12:11:05 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tikkiee

When I offered myself to him; I became property; I gave up all rights; willingly and consentually. Because of this, he does not have to 'force' me to do anything. I have two choices. I can follow orders; or I can be punished, and then follow the orders.

Pretty much my situation as well. Or option three - if I do not follow orders enough times, I can not be his slave anymore.

My Master does not force me. I need his ownership, and so I do what he says. There are times I do not want to do what he demands of me. But I do them. Why? Because he tells me to. There is no negotiation for me. So far everything he has demanded of me has benefited me in the long run. If I didn't trust him to manage me as he sees fit, I would not have begged him to own me.

(in reply to Tikkiee)

RE: "Forcing" someone - 12/24/2006 12:14:42 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Morrigel

Can you force someone to do something? Absolutely. Does it create a long-term sustainable dynamic without their consent? No. The problem with real force is that once you use it, you can never STOP using it. If your ability to exert force ever wavers, your authority topples. This is just as true of individuals as it is of governments and institutions. All governance is based on a blend of coercion and consent. The more consent there is, the more cooperation there is, the more stable the dynamic will be. No one can be controlled for long by any person, institution or a government for which they have no love and from whom they receive nothing but coercive force.

In other words--force most definitely exists. But it is always a short-sighted strategy.

--M

This is very thought provoking. How much force versus cooperation exists in a sustanable D/s relationship looking at it that way?

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RE: "Forcing" someone - 12/24/2006 4:26:08 AM

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Can you "force" someone to do something? Yes. By using coercion . Should you force someone? I do not think so, a Dominant brings about the desire to do as they ask. One of the definitions of coerce says to bring about by force or threat. There is a difference between choosing and choosing of your own free will. You could even say that a slave or submissive that agrees to do something because they do not want to displease their Master, is being coerced to an extent.

Orion

"Control is an illusion that is difficult to maintain, and why one must be a Master to do so."

(in reply to MasterFireMaam)

RE: "Forcing" someone - 12/24/2006 10:09:47 AM

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Hello MasterFireMaam

quote:

What's everyone's opinion about our ability as Masters and Dominants to force someone to do something? Can we really, truly, force anyone to do anything?

My question to anyone who believed in this would be 'why do you feel the need to force at all?" I truly believe that anyone who feels the need to force their submissive or slave to do something for them is not doing a very good job of 'mastering' them to begin with.

quote:

if you truly didn't want to do something, could you be forced to do it? Edited to add: Do you feel that you have a choice about what you do?

Yes, anyone can be forced when faced with a person who is much stronger physically than they are. I am only 5'1, my brothers can physically force me to do anything; they are much taller and stronger than I am.

In the context of a M/s relationship, if one feels that they are being forced to comply, then perhaps they should re-evaluate their reasons for being in the relationship to begin with?

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harley

(in reply to MasterFireMaam)

RE: "Forcing" someone - 12/24/2006 10:27:57 AM

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~Fast Reply~

I can not be forced. I gave him my submission and much of the control over my life and my actions. There are things that, if he told me to, I would disobey him and depending on what it was - murder, hurting someone, stealing, something else completely out of his character - I would either look around to see if he was currently hiding a drug problem from me or I would leave because he would no longer be the man I fell in love with.

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RE: "Forcing" someone - 12/24/2006 10:39:58 AM

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I remmeber a thread like this from a few months ago - I'm glad someone brought it up again because it's an interesting topic. I basically think if you've agreed to be someone's submissive you probably should be aware that might entail doing things you are not particularly fond of doing (as well as things you may love doing). At least, I'd hope a Dominant would make sure this was something the possibility of which, would be discussed. Also, hopefully the concept of "limits" has been discussed (and the Dominant knows those of his submissive, as well as his own, of course).

I'd also hope the two people had bothered to check whether their values were in "sync" with eachother as far as what might be expected of them, before pledging anything akin to undying devotion and loyalty.

Having said that, I can imagine bdsm scenarios that involve "non-consensual" force (which a submissive has agreed to do, but doesn't know, perhaps, exactly when or where they might occur. Because that is part of the "game plan"). "Play rape" might be a good example of this, I think. A Dominant hides in some room in the house and "attacks" his submissive wearing a ski mask, and she cannot tell if it's her Dominant attacking her, or some complete stranger, etc. Sure, it's forced. It's completely unexpected (at least as far as timing, etc).

But, the submissive (and the Dominant) agreed to do it "sometime soon", maybe, so in that sense it's not forced. As far as the submissive's (or the Dominant's) physical reaction to the scene, my guess is that this would be pretty "realistic," and have heard as much from someone who has tried this.

- Susan

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 12/24/2006 10:53:33 AM >

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RE: "Forcing" someone - 12/24/2006 10:54:02 AM

MzMia

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Archer

In the end you almost always have the choice even with the gun to your head you have the choice, the alternative choice may not be ry much to your liking either but it is there.

Short of being physicly overpowered and physicly moved it seems there is always a choice.

My thoughts exactly, if someone is not physically forcing or threatening you with harm.
You are doing it willingly.

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RE: "Forcing" someone - 12/24/2006 3:46:11 PM

Devilslilsister

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Even tied up and cuffed.. you can still make a choice. A choice to scream or not and to keep screaming despite the consequences. The choice to run your mouth to those who have you tied up and be gagged or the choice to keep your mouth shut. The choice to be near others that are bigger then you.

There is always a choice and whether you have calculated the risk with those you are around or not is your choice.

i was once told i had no choice to stay in the military at 17. i made a choice and took a cab.

i was once told i had no choice but to say in a psych ward. I made a choice to leave and despite their biggest, strongest man (and security) - i left.

No one is on gaurd 24/7, 365 days a year. There is always some sort of "error" made where you can exert your choice to leave. There is always "something" you can do.

Even with a gun to your head.. you can make the choice to die or comply. You can make the choice to comply for along while or a choice to comply until you have an opportunity to make an escape (or bash them in)

Even if some one was standing in my bedroom who is bigger, stronger, and faster - there is always a choice to go flying out a window so i can NOT make the choice to comply. Or something along the lines. There is always a choice, just sometimes the choices are unpleasant ones.

Most times its just smart to make the choice not to get into situations like that.

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RE: "Forcing" someone - 12/24/2006 4:34:26 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Devilslilsister

Even with a gun to your head.. you can make the choice to die or comply. You can make the choice to comply for along while or a choice to comply until you have an opportunity to make an escape (or bash them in)

On a related note, having worked in an industry which deals with many abuse and rape survivors, I wanted to point out that the attitude displayed in these words, whether the rape survivor made the choice to stay and be raped, or fought for her life and got away, makes an enormous difference in how long it will take her to recover from the situation.

Women who are raped often describe feeling helpless, unable to think, unable to leave, having no choice. Somewhere in that bleak mental soup is a part of her mind blaming her for being there unable to do anything. Her power is stolen, which is really what the rapist is trying to get, using sex as his weapon. What makes her recovery take so long is often overcoming her blaming herself for allowing herself to be violated.

Women who agree to go along with the rape or fight back unsuccessfully for whatever reason recover much faster. She does not allow the rapist to steal her psychic power as he rapes her physical self.

Nice thread, OP.

Sinergy

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(in reply to Devilslilsister)

RE: "Forcing" someone - 12/24/2006 4:37:28 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Devilslilsister

Most times its just smart to make the choice not to get into situations like that.

On another unrelated comment, this is referred to by body guards and security experts as "Target denial." The person is denying themselves as a target to a potential predatory attack.

Sure, I have been studying martial arts and teaching self defense most of my adult life. Despite the macho arrogance this could leave me mired in, I see a somebody(ies) down the street who make the hair stand up on the back of my neck, I cross the street so I dont have to deal with them.

Just me, could be wrong, etc.

Sinergy

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"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
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"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle

(in reply to Devilslilsister)

RE: "Forcing" someone - 12/24/2006 5:13:20 PM

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Yes you can..

Even if we use your example you've still done something you didn't want to do. You were forced because the only other choice was death. Even in the eyes of the law that is not a choice.

If someone holds a gun to your head and forces you to sign a contract - that contract is not valid, because in the eyes of the law you had no choice. If my company treats me so badly that I feel I have no option other than to quit, they can be charged with "constructive dismissal" .. meaning they created an environment so unfriendly that it was really a firing because "i had no 'real' choice.

If a parent is told they must either kill themselves or their child and they shoot themselves - do you think that would not be 'forcing' them?

Essentially.. there are a couple of ways to get people to do things they do not wish to do.
1. You provide a reward that makes the unpleasant task worthwhile..
2. You provide a consequence that is more unpleasant than the task you are requiring.

There is another option as well.. but it's an extreme. If you're wise enough, have the skills and knowledge - you can eventually retrain the way someone thinks. For instance, given enough time and expertise, you could convince a person that they are a bird and can fly. The human mind is an interesting thing. In the wrong hands, it can be manipulated to do many things. Look at cults, military intelligence interogators etc. Now in this instance you're not actually convincing someone to do something - you are changing the entire way they think about themselves and the world around them. Not possible (and certainly not ethical) for most people to achieve.. but it is possible.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam

thetammyjo posted a great discussion about life's paths. In a later response, she said, "I did want to say that for me I do not feel I could force someone to stay with me because of my personal moral code." It got me to thinking and I didn't want to hijack her thread.

What's everyone's opinion about our ability as Masters and Dominants to force someone to do something? Can we really, truly, force anyone to do anything?

How about the flip side: if you truly didn't want to do something, could you be forced to do it? Edited to add: Do you feel that you have a choice about what you do?

My thoughts: In the end, we cannot force anyone to do anything, nor can we be forced if we truly, truly don't want to do it. There are consequences for choosing not to, but, we can choose those. Case in point: you can hold a gun to my head and tell me I have to do something in order to live. I have the choice to do it or be shot. Same thing if you help the gun on someone else and told me that they'd be shot if I didn't comply. It would all depend on what I was willing to "sell" (doing whatever) in order to get what I wanted (life) that would define my willingness to be "forced". But, in the end, it's MY choice to do, or not...not your choice...you've merely uped the ante and have, or haven't, convinced me that it's worth it.

Master Fire

(in reply to MasterFireMaam)

RE: "Forcing" someone - 12/24/2006 5:52:30 PM

nikaa

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Master Fire Maam,

I wanted to thank you for posting this topic. It became a wonderful discussion between my Master and myself. It was one of those things we "agreed" upon but never truly discussed in detail.

It was another reminder of why I think I am very lucky to be his.

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Phoenix's Nika

The Cherokee legacy is that we are a people who face adversity, survive, adapt, prosper and excel.

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RE: "Forcing" someone - 12/24/2006 6:12:57 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam

thetammyjo posted a great discussion about life's paths. In a later response, she said, "I did want to say that for me I do not feel I could force someone to stay with me because of my personal moral code." It got me to thinking and I didn't want to hijack her thread.

What's everyone's opinion about our ability as Masters and Dominants to force someone to do something? Can we really, truly, force anyone to do anything?

How about the flip side: if you truly didn't want to do something, could you be forced to do it? Edited to add: Do you feel that you have a choice about what you do?

My thoughts: In the end, we cannot force anyone to do anything, nor can we be forced if we truly, truly don't want to do it. There are consequences for choosing not to, but, we can choose those. Case in point: you can hold a gun to my head and tell me I have to do something in order to live. I have the choice to do it or be shot. Same thing if you help the gun on someone else and told me that they'd be shot if I didn't comply. It would all depend on what I was willing to "sell" (doing whatever) in order to get what I wanted (life) that would define my willingness to be "forced". But, in the end, it's MY choice to do, or not...not your choice...you've merely uped the ante and have, or haven't, convinced me that it's worth it.

Master Fire

HI there, MasterFireMaam.

You pretty much answered your own question, and I will fully back ya in your own opinion. "Force" may be subject to interpretation, yet, it is well within the realms of both sides of the relationship to "influence" choices, or let others see your point of view, which may be contrary to their own. Forcing them to "think", maybe? We all have choices. I, personally, will refrain from influencing someone to stay in a situation that may be detrimental to their mental/physical health ( or detracts from the powerexchange dynamic that I am influencing), for my own personal satisfaction/gratification. Well stated, MasterFireMaam.

Travelino.

(in reply to MasterFireMaam)

RE: "Forcing" someone - 12/24/2006 9:14:10 PM

Devilslilsister

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quote:

Women who are raped often describe feeling helpless, unable to think, unable to leave, having no choice. Somewhere in that bleak mental soup is a part of her mind blaming her for being there unable to do anything. Her power is stolen, which is really what the rapist is trying to get, using sex as his weapon. What makes her recovery take so long is often overcoming her blaming herself for allowing herself to be violated.

what also speeds recovery is taking the power back. Sometimes what helps is realising that you DID make a choice and the choice you made is okay. I have made many bad choices, but that is okay because i learned alot from them.

i was molested often when i was a young teenager. Dont know if you can really call it being abused. He did steal my power, i did feel helpless, i did feel there was no other choice. It was fucking miserable and i did carry scars long past what happened. I did eventually make the "choice" to stand up to the bastard. While it did me no good other then to be dangled by my neck i stood up. I said quite prettily "fuck you and there isnt anything you can do about it" Looking back 12 years later - i DID make the choice. Manipulation, games, and mind fucks aside - i made the damn choice even if it was a choice made of of stupidty and being naive.

_____________________________

My ability to cope with BS is at an all time low - me

i may look like i'm doing nothing, but i'm very busy at a cellular level

(in reply to Sinergy)

RE: "Forcing" someone - 12/24/2006 9:19:56 PM

Devilslilsister

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quote:

On another unrelated comment, this is referred to by body guards and security experts as "Target denial." The person is denying themselves as a target to a potential predatory attack.

Sure, I have been studying martial arts and teaching self defense most of my adult life. Despite the macho arrogance this could leave me mired in, I see a somebody(ies) down the street who make the hair stand up on the back of my neck, I cross the street so I dont have to deal with them.

i call it being aware of your surroundings and keeping your eyes open for potential problems. They did a study, or something, with muggers in NY and they video taped people walking on the streets. Having the convicted muggers (ect) point out people they would potentially target. It was always the ones that kept their head down and looked like they didnt have a clue. Keep your head up, look around you, know whose walking around you and be aware. The world is full of predators and potential predators - keep an eye out

_____________________________

My ability to cope with BS is at an all time low - me

i may look like i'm doing nothing, but i'm very busy at a cellular level

(in reply to Sinergy)

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