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RE: Submissive training - 12/12/2006 7:18:06 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied
My first question to any "trainer" would be "How can you train me for a future relationship (Master)?"  The answer is, he can't.

Completely agreed.

But, we shouldn't throw out such a useful mechanism as training just because of all the dorks out there calling themselves "trainers" or all the subs crying out for some elusive "sub training."

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to KatyLied)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Submissive training - 12/12/2006 7:44:14 AM   
akisha


Posts: 2071
Joined: 6/25/2005
Status: offline 		If you practice Gor, you'd need to be "trained" in all the positions and command responses etc. This would be done by a more experienced kajira. But as for training how to serve a potential Master or Mistress, it just isn't logical. Like it's already been said by others. No one can teach you to please another person. There are things that in one relationship i would have been cuffed for doing, where as in this relationship it's requested of me.

Basic manners and social niceties are learned by observing and assimilating. Specialized skills such as belly dancing, stripping, or any special ceremony such as the Japenese Tea Ceremony Knight mentioned, can not be taught by some Dominant that states he or she is a trainer, they have to be taught by someone that has the skill set and knowledge to do so. I'm not saying some Dominants don't have those skills, I'm saying you don't have to go to someone with in BDSM community to learn but to anyone that has the ability and knowledge to teach the skills you seek.

IMO, some of the people that advertise themselves as "Submissive Trainers" are just looking for some new and naive sub to play with with out the commitment of a relationship.

_____________________________

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(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: Submissive training - 12/12/2006 8:35:47 AM   
toservez


Posts: 1733
Joined: 9/7/2006
From: All over now in Minnesota
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Quivver

Training .... isnt that just a word for learning the other? 
How they want things done, what they like and dislike, learning to accept and try new things that they enjoy or want done?  I mean really.............  I am Human, not a Lab Rat. 


Except for the lab rat part I think this sums it up quite nicely. Training to me is learning what my Master likes, how he likes, what he wants and all other things of that nature. We all have been trained in our lives. From how to do certain things at work to how to behave when we were children, the word to me is a no big deal thing.

The three things that puzzle me in this are are:

1) When people think there is only one way to do things that there is some slave manual. Training can really only be in reference to the specific person.

2) People get caught up in grandiose thinking about themselves or their owners. Learning how to cook is just that, learning a skill and not some great wise thing a Master did. Learning to cook to how your owner prefers something is training.

3) People take or give 100% credit for when they flourish in a relationship of this nature as my owner taught me how or I will teach you how on some big and deep emotional and behavioral things. Many things on this level are not taught but are already there and are just brought out by an owner who provides the right environment and methods for a slave to let go and embrace what was really there all along.


_____________________________

I am sorry I do not fit Webster's defintion of a slave but thankfully my Master is not Webster.

"Anything that contradicts experience and logic should be abandoned." - H.H. The 14th Dalai Lama

(in reply to Quivver)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Submissive training - 12/12/2006 11:33:33 AM   
BlkTallFullfig


Posts: 5585
Joined: 6/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: somethndif
quote:

ORIGINAL: PiercedDaz
What are peoples views on training submissives?
I'd love to hear they views of Dom/mes and subs/slaves on this subject. Have you experienced training? Was it positive or negative? Does it increase the feeling of wanting to submit to their One?
I have never understood the whole discussion of "training' a submissive.  We are talking about people, presumably intelligent people.  If I want my submissive to do something, I tell her to do it.  If I want her to do it in a particular way, I tell her and she does it, or there are consequences.  You train dogs and horses, not people.

I have noticed that the discussion of training is usually in the abstract, usually no discussion of what the submissive is specifically being trained to do. 

Now I do think you can introduce a submissive to new things, ass-fucking or canes, as two examples, for those who have never done it.  But I don't see that as training.  *shrug*
Dan 
I agree with this.    I don't have a specific dislike for the word training, but do chafe when someone asks "how do you dominate" or "how would you train your submissive?" 
Learning how to be the best partner/sub/slave for someone is probably a lifelong endeavor, and to me, very specific to each individual; so I frequently fail to understand how someone else's 20years of training (I mean other than mom/dad teaching him to be a decent human being, and a gentleman) is going to be helpful to a submissive of mine.

Submission in my understanding is very much an internal process which outsiders can affect, but mostly it is work to be done by the submissive, a choice really (in my opinion).   M

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""Touching was, and still is, and will always be, the true revolution" Nikki Giovanni

(in reply to somethndif)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Submissive training - 12/12/2006 11:34:24 AM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

I think part of resistance comes from Doms who say things like:  "I am a trainer of sluts."  My opinion is much like Rover's on this.  There are no universal  skills that can be trained.  And I continue to think that a lot of guys hide behind "trainer" as a means of taking advantage of naive subs/slaves, who think they need training, when all he wants is sex.  My first question to any "trainer" would be "How can you train me for a future relationship (Master)?"  The answer is, he can't.


Agreed... But I think it's wise to not throw out the baby with the bath water.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to KatyLied)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Submissive training - 12/12/2006 12:05:34 PM   
marieToo


Posts: 3595
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Jersey
Status: offline 		GR:

I think in any type of relationship, any time we alter our behavior (from something minor on up to something major) to accomodate another persons feelings/desires, we can say we've been "trained".  Even if not intentionally. 

This applies with how we talk to our kids, how they talk to us, how we may talk to a particular friend who may have a hang up about A, B or C.  Maybe it's about how we approach a certain topic because a certain friend has strong feelings about it.   Or the way we do or dont do something in a relationship because we know how the other person will react.  Im too lazy to cite examples...but here's a quickie....

How many people here have been 'trained' to say "in my opinion" before they make a statement?  

Its rampant, in everyday life. We're all constantly being trained to accomodate the world around us. 

I dont care for the word training as it applies to a Ds realationship tho.  but I think its more about Katy's point.  How so many morons mis-use the word.  I look at it like I'm merely learning someone or getting used to what someone else likes. I dislike the whole "Im in training" statement, but I think its about my own hang-ups with Ds people always needing their own terms for things that really apply in all types of relationships.   

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I give good agita.









(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Submissive training - 12/12/2006 2:11:47 PM   
Archer


Posts: 3207
Joined: 3/11/2005
Status: offline 		Well I depart fom some of the ideas here myself in that unstructured learning i consider learning not training, I consider training to be a structured teaching with a specified goal of performance standards.

If the performance standard is not there then I do not consider it "training" but rather learning.

Just my own semantic opinion.

The more basic the skillset the more likely it will be transferable between Owners/Masters.
Training to focus on a task is really basic, and thus more transferable than training in possitions that may not be the same as the format your eventual owner prefers.



(in reply to marieToo)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Submissive training - 12/12/2006 2:17:31 PM   
MissUnleaded


Posts: 60
Joined: 8/26/2006
Status: offline 		Fast reply.

I personally don't like the word 'training' as to me it implies a structured course of learning, with a predetermined curriculum, manuals, practical classes and tests, given by a qualified teacher and working towards some kind of certification.  That's not how I'd describe my ideal relationship.  Every dominant has a different idea of what sort of behaviour is required of a sub, so 'training' (particularly online training) of submissives by anyone other than their actual dominant is as likely to be a hindrance as a help.

Especially if the 'trainer' is a HNG with little or no real life experience and is talking out of his arse.

(in reply to marieToo)
Profile   Post #: 28
RE: Submissive training - 12/12/2006 5:10:32 PM   
PiercedDaz


Posts: 121
Joined: 10/16/2006
Status: offline 		I'd like to thank everyone that has so far added their thoughts and opinions to this thread. I am always fascinated by the diversity on here. It really does help with my learning curve by assessing my views against others so that I can then self assess myself.

I notice that once again people seem to be obsessed with the strength of nouns and the concrete power that these labels seem to have. Training? Learning? Sharing? I'm sorry if my vocabulary annoyed some but it was the actual act that I was interested in and not what you want to call it.

There seems to have been a bit of a pattern that has formed and I would like to air my thoughts on the act of training so as to ask on feedback and comparison from others...

I notice that alot of Dom/mes view the training as a way to teach the sub a way of improving their service. At the same time, I notice that many subs view training as a way of them being empowered to improve their training.

Am I looking at this subject from a completely different angle? I set my sub tasks approximately every one to two weeks. These tasks are engineered and designed to explore, test and push the personal and individual limits of their submissive nature. I see the psyche of the submissive nature (like any human mind) to be a shadowy and mostly unexplored land. Some areas are darker and less explored than others. The aim of the tasks are to S,S&C explore these areas.

Therefore the tasks aren't specifically aimed at a particular way to serve me. They are for the submissive to search themselves more than they naturally would alone. I feel that by doing this, my submissive can become more confidant in submitting to me and be capable of doing so more deeply as I have proved my trust by safetly navigating them through these previous tasks.

Any thoughts? 

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(in reply to MissUnleaded)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Submissive training - 12/12/2006 5:12:34 PM   
MmakeMme


Posts: 682
Joined: 7/29/2006
From: NC
Status: offline 		My former Dom taught me only how to please Him (although He did lead me to recovery from codependency so I'm not throwing tomatoes in His direction). My current Sir is teaching me about my submission. None of the tasks He has assigned have been frivilous.

For instance, He instructed me to plant at least ten tulips. I didn't see the point but I did it anyway (and planted forty instead of ten). After I completed the task, He gave me a "good girl!" (which I love) and said that when they bloom, I will remember these days and will have forty reasons to be thankful for them. ~smiling~

In our conversations, if He notices I do not understand something thoroughly, He gives me tasks such as asking members of the community for their thoughts, studying their opinions, formulating my own opinion, and then discussing it with Him.

I must write in my journal every day so that He can understand my thoughts and thought processes. He has me reading the Gor books (He is not Gorean) so that I can have a better grasp of that philosophy. These are only for-examples and not all inclusive of the tasks (or lessons) He gives me.

He is attempting to make me very well-rounded, and through these tasks and through His encouragement and care, I am drawn closer to Him. He, in turn, receives back the power I get from Him, because I want to give Him all that I am.

He is one smart Sir. ~distant smile~

_____________________________

Happiness is not something ready made. It comes from your own actions. ~~ Dalai Lama

(in reply to KatyLied)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Submissive training - 12/12/2006 5:14:55 PM   
MmakeMme


Posts: 682
Joined: 7/29/2006
From: NC
Status: offline 		Oh, and Daz, in response to your giving your sub a task once every couple of weeks, I have several tasks going on all at once. Sir's reasoning is that a bored sub is an unhappy sub. And ... truth be told ... my smart mouth earns me tasks galore. ~chuckle~ (You will notice I am not crying about it.)

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Happiness is not something ready made. It comes from your own actions. ~~ Dalai Lama

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Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Submissive training - 12/12/2006 5:24:54 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		Well Daz, I have found that life pushes me and my relationships to explore those deep caverns all on their own without much help needed on my part.  If I get an itch in a direction, I scratch it, and my nature makes me drawn towards the intense- but training for me cannot be broken into discrete portions metered out every few weeks. 

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to MmakeMme)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Submissive training - 12/12/2006 5:35:30 PM   
PiercedDaz


Posts: 121
Joined: 10/16/2006
Status: offline 		MmakeMme...copious tasks at once? That did make me smile! I know that many people take BDSM very, very seriously indeed. My sub is a wonderful intelligent girl with a very stressful job and lots on her plate who loves the journey that I am leading her on...

BUT...

If I started tasking her like you are, I'm sure I'd get a very swift "Oi you! Who the fuck do you think I am? Bloody Wonder Woman???"  lol

By the way, I loved your task with the tulips. That was beautiful.

_____________________________

"A taboo is a strong social prohibition relating to any area of human activity or social custom declared as sacred and forbidden; breaking of the taboo is usually considered objectionable or abhorrent by society"......Woohoo!!!

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Submissive training - 12/12/2006 5:41:59 PM   
KatyLied


Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline
quote:

My sub is a wonderful intelligent girl with a very stressful job and lots on her plate who loves the journey that I am leading her on...


Make the journey specific to her needs.  It sounds like her needs are stress reduction.  Some ideas for tasking:  meditation, exercise, focused activity that has the benefit of calming or relaxing her.  My Dom helped me with this stuff.  We discussed some of my needs and he helped steer me in the direction he thought would be helpful. 

It's not about giving out tasks just give out tasks (unless you have that kink).  But to help your sub find new/different ways of dealing with things that are bothering her, that in turn makes her better at being a sub.

Many subs welcome tasks, as long as they aren't of a micromanagment type (although some subs like those too).


_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

(in reply to PiercedDaz)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Submissive training - 12/12/2006 5:59:35 PM   
lrdmecha1015


Posts: 6
Joined: 12/27/2005
From: Atlanta, GA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: somethndif
I have never understood the whole discussion of "training' a submissive. We are talking about people, presumably intelligent people. If I want my submissive to do something, I tell her to do it. If I want her to do it in a particular way, I tell her and she does it, or there are consequences. You train dogs and horses, not people.


Yeah I think that's the point, to make the submissive feel not like a woman being told how to do something by a man, but like a pet being taught to roll over.

_____________________________

If there were no rewards to reap / Or loving embrace to see me through /
This tedious path I've chosen here / I certainly would have walked away by now

(in reply to somethndif)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Submissive training - 12/12/2006 6:03:40 PM   
Daddysfavoritpet


Posts: 9
Joined: 12/5/2006
Status: offline 		while training seems to be the catch phrase.. i believe guidance would be better suited.  Master learns from sub just as sub learns from Master.  i my self have used the term re-train since i was once collared and have been running wild for several years.  i knew i was in need of guidance, dicipline and love in order to help bring me back to what i love and that is being a sub.  when i have disappointed Him, i feel more like a child who has lost the praise of the one i hold dear more than a whipped puppy in the corner.  while this is just my humble opinion, i would welcome your ideas and thoghts on it.

(in reply to KatyLied)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Submissive training - 12/12/2006 6:24:03 PM   
CreativeDominant


Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
Status: offline 		I am one of those who falls in the camp of training my submissive.  I would be teaching her how to please me which involves a variety of actions and thoughts. 

I don't get the big hang-up on the word "training"...I understand that some are chafed by it because they've encountered those who proclaim that "they train sluts" or those who state that they can train anyone on how to be a submissive or they've dealt with those who use the term to con naive, new submissives but I have the feeling that there are some who would chafe at the word even when it comes from their dominant and means exactly what has been stated above by me and others...they are going to train the submissive to behave in a certain manner to please the dominant and to think in ways that enhance the relationship. 

The army doesn't call it teaching, they call it training.  They don't teach pilots, they train pilots.  Is there teaching involved in all this?  Sure...a good soldier knows how to think as does a good pilot.  But a lot of their actions are based on the training they've received so that they react in the best/safest/most efficient way at the right times.  Is there teaching involved between a dominant and a submissive?  Sure...in my mind, a good dominant and a good submissive both know how to learn.  But in a D/s situation...at least from some posts I've seen on prior threads...isn't part of the idea for the submissive to do what pleases the dominant and aren't some of these things the same thing over and over...such as kneeling or responding to commands or what-have-you?  That is the result of training.

(in reply to PiercedDaz)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Submissive training - 12/12/2006 6:59:39 PM   
gypsygrl


Posts: 1471
Joined: 10/8/2005
From: new york state
Status: offline 		I don't know that I've ever been trained and have probably been more confused than necessary during most of my interactions with dominants.  The way I see it, training reduces complexity and makes things managable by providing concrete guidelines for practice and clear goals, whether its how to maximize the dominant's pleasure or the submissive's sense of well being.  In my little imaginary universe, a well trained sub doesn't have to spend a lot of time worrying if she's doing the right thing, because she's been trained to do the right thing.

I do see a difference between training and teaching but this probably has something to do with the fact that I'm a teacher in my regular life and am in the field of education, so I think a lot about pedagogy.

For me, teaching/educating is oriented towards facilitating anothers learning, and the end is open.  Its not the teacher's job to decide what the student is to do with what they've learned.  Ideally, a good teacher encourages student to take responsibility for their own learning: they learn how to learn and think for themselves.

Training, on the other hand, is closed in the sense that the ends, and often the means to achieve those ends, are given to the student by the trainer.  The student is told what he/she is supposed to be doing and how to do it.  Everything is pretty much laid out.

Of course, a D/s sort of relationship is a complex interaction between the involved parties, and there's no reason why any given relationship cant combine teaching and training, or consist of primarily of either one.

For me, I have nothing against being trained.  I don't find the concept insulting.  It seems that if a Dominant wants something it makes sense that he should say so and to show me how to do it if I don't already know.



(in reply to PiercedDaz)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Submissive training - 12/12/2006 7:12:48 PM   
TPEOwner


Posts: 73
Joined: 9/19/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PiercedDaz

What are peoples views on training submissives?

Are the tasks structured with aims and objectives or are they ways of a Dom/me making a submissive just do whatever they want?

I'd love to hear they views of Dom/mes and subs/slaves on this subject. Have you experienced training? Was it positive or negative? Does it increase the feeling of wanting to submit to their One?


Well, aside from the fact that the word rubs me the wrong way... training to do what?   The way some use the term, they think there is some universal standard that one can learn.  Usually it involves some sort of "universal" protocol.  Sorry, there is no such thing.  (PSSSST, universal old guard protocols is a myth)  Some women want to be trained to be a good sub.  What constitutes a good sub varies from person to person.  What one finds exciting might bore another to tears.  I believe that whenever you start a relationship, each person needs to learn about the other to make things work.  That happens regardless of whether power exchange is involved.  Call it training, call it learning, call it growing closer, it's all the same.

Too often, I think the desire for training comes from low self esteme.  "I'm no good now, but I know the right master/mistress can TRAIN me to be worthy".  No thanks.  I prefer my sub to come pre-equipped with confidence and self respect.

All that being said...  blow job training candidates are currently being interviewed.  Prospective candidates should be female, human, and breathing.  Please form a line to the left, and please don't fight over me.

(in reply to PiercedDaz)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Submissive training - 12/12/2006 9:57:50 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		~fast reply~

I was thinking a little more about this today.  It seems many equate training with tasks and such.  To me, training was a way of shaping my mindset.  I was trained in self analysis.  Trained in expressing myself.  Trained to manage my thinking, thus overcoming my ADD issues without the use of drugs.  Trained to see and understand myself and all there is to love about me, therefore trained to be self confident.  This took much more than mere guidance, as specific skills were needed for some of these things.  Example:  If I am having a conversation with you, and we're outside, and you are standing in front of a tree...and it's windy which blows the leaves around...odds are I wouldn't hear a word you were saying because I would hyperfocus on the leaves rustling about and how pretty they looked floating off the branches to the ground below.  I had to train my mind to focus on YOU and keep the pretty leaves in the background...to not interrupt you and blurt out whatever popped into my mind at that given moment...to listen to you and hear you. There are of course skills, sexual and otherwise, that he teaches me as well.  In fact I am learning something now that is incredibly difficult.  But my training encompasses many things - most of which are areas of self improvement as a human being.

Slavery to my Master requires a lot more than tasks and chores and how to rub his back.  I am trained in how to think and how to manage my energy, and how to understand my strength.  My Master happens to enjoy teaching slaves and submissves such things about themselves. While many equate training to a dom that just wants to get laid, that has not been my personal experience with it, or what I have witnessed in my Master training others.

(in reply to TPEOwner)
Profile   Post #: 40
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