quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

1. Much of medieval life was not played out under feudalism but yes, for much of the population of the world their life under capitalism is worse than the lives of medieval Europeans.

    Life was hard for the peasants who worked on the farms. There was always something that needed doing on the land and they could not afford to slack in any way. If the harvest failed, the whole village could face starvation in the winter.

Manors, not villages, were the economic and social units of life in the early Middle Ages. A manor consisted of a manor house, one or more villages, and up to several thousand acres of land divided into meadow, pasture, forest, and cultivated fields. The fields were further divided into strips; 1/3 for the lord of the manor, less for the church, and the remainder for the peasants and serfs. This land was shared out so that each person had an equal share of good and poor. At least half the work week was spent on the land belonging to the lord and the church. Time might also be spent doing maintenance and on special projects such as clearing land, cutting firewood, and building roads and bridges. The rest of the time the villagers were free to work their own land.

...

    The Peasant's Life. Villages consisted of from 10-60 families living in rough huts on dirt floors, with no chimneys or windows. Often, one end of the hut was given over to storing livestock. Furnishings were sparse; three legged stools, a trestle table, beds on the floor softened with straw or leaves. The peasant diet was mainly porridge, cheese, black bread, and a few home-grown vegetables.

Peasants had a hard life, but they did not work on Sundays or on the frequent saints' days, and they could go to nearby fairs and markets. The lot of serfs was much harsher.

...

    The Serf's Life. Although not technically a slave, a serf was bound to a lord for life. He could own no property and needed the lord's permission to marry. Under no circumstance could a serf leave the land without the lord's permission unless he chose to run away. If he ran to a town and managed to stay there for a year and a day, he was a free man. However, the serf did have rights. He could not be displaced if the manor changed hands. He could not be required to fight, and he was entitled to the protection of the lord.

    Medicine was often a risky business. Bloodletting was a popular method of restoring a patient's health and "humors." Early surgery, often done by barbers without anesthesia, must have been excruciating.

Medical treatment was available mainly to the wealthy, and those living in villages rarely had the help of doctors, who practiced mostly in the cities and courts. Remedies were often herbal in nature, but also included ground earthworms, urine, and animal excrement. Many medieval medical manuscripts contained recipes for remedies that called for hundreds of therapeutic substances--the notion that every substance in nature held some sort of power accounts for the enormous variety of substances. Many treatments were administered by people outside the medical tradition. Coroners' rolls from the time reveal how lay persons often made sophisticated medical judgments without the aid of medical experts. From these reports we also learn about some of the major causes of death.

    Medieval societies always feared having a lack of food. Crop surpluses were rarely enough to create viable storage systems and even the greatest lord could not keep enough grain to outlast a famine. By the beginning of the 1300s the population had grown to such an extent that adequate amounts of food could only be grown under the best of conditions. There was no margin of failure for crops. The problem this century saw was a changing climate, with cooler and wetter summers and earlier autumn storms.

The Feudal System was introduced to England following the invasion and conquest of the country by William I (The Conqueror). The system had been used in France by the Normans from the time they first settled there in about 900AD. It was a simple, but effective system, where all land was owned by the King. One quarter was kept by the King as his personal property, some was given to the church and the rest was leased out under strict controls.

Most medieval homes were cold, damp, and dark. Sometimes it  was warmer and lighter outside the home than within its walls. For security purposes, windows, when they were present, were very small openings with wooden shutters that were closed at night or in bad weather. The small size of the windows allowed those inside to see out, but kept outsiders from looking in.

Many peasant families ate, slept, and spent time together in very small quarters, rarely more than one or two rooms. The houses had thatched roofs and were easily destroyed.

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

2.  Yes, but you are implying I am suggesting we go back to the conditions that caused that life span. I am saying capitalism is not necessarily the cause of an extended life span. In fact the industrial revolution drastically reduced life expectancy and it took considerabe time to correct that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

The corrections were made through sanitation and forced and regulated health and safety against capital's wishes.

I was saying to put an extended life span down to capitalism is crediting capitalism with something it isn't responsibility for or only indirectly, for example.

Desease and epidemics brought on by the lack of sanitation in the new cities created by capitalism forced people to find a solution, that solution was found to be clean water and sanitation. Something was done about it mainly because desease didn't distinguish between the rich and poor but it was knowldege that found the solution and not capitalism.

As the populations of medieval towns and cities increased, hygienic conditions worsened, leading to a vast array of health problems. Medical knowledge was limited and, despite the efforts of medical practitioners and public and religious institutions to institute regulations, medieval Europe did not have an adequate health care system.

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Yes, capitalism paid for the new drains and clean water in the cities, after all, how can a capitalist enjoy their wealth if he was going to drop dead of typhoid the following week? So I guess indirectly capitalism was responsible for clean water and sanitation after it caused the problem in the first place.

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

3. Anything that eats up ones time while in a somnambulant state ie. TV, computer games, the gratification of new designer clothes but anything that distracts one from the mindless tasks one has to do to obtain enough money to buy these toys that make one forget the monotony of work.

4.  Well people in a medieval society had far more free time to socialise than people living in a capitalist society. No, I'm not suggesting we go back to medieval way of living but I'm pointing out that the endless pursuit of material goods robs us of our most precious asset, time and largely to make other people rich. It's a pity people don't wake up to that fact.

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

5.  I'm pointing out that archeologists have been surprised by the competence and knowledge of medieval medics, much has been lost as there are no written records that discuss medical procedures but knowledge there was because material evidence has been found. What I am saying is that there is alternatives to modern technological medicine that capitalism provides. In fact many European countries are looking into preventative healthcare because it is seen as cheaper and more effective with modern technological  medicine being expensive and mostly used in the last weeks of peoples lives on the whole. I am not saying we should go back to medieval medicine, I'm saying medicine capitalism has provided is not the big deal that is claimed in many instances. Yes, its a big deal if you are the one that needs it and you have the money but ask many of your uninsured compartriots what expensive technological medicine means to them. Nothing I guess.

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

6. Capitalism is no more responsible for human knowledge than any other economic system. The age of enlightenment was a philosophy not an exconomic system. Capitalism cares fuck all about knowledge that doesn't make a buck. Without capitalism people would have still accumulated knowledge because it is in their nature. That knowledge most probably would have taken a different route but no less valid for that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Actually none of this is about destroying the wheel, its about getting off an addiction that is killing the planet, changing priorities and considering alternative solutions to ever increasing economies that can't be sustained. It is not about me doing without my cigars and whiskey, its about paying a price for them that is realistic to the damage done to the environment from importing them across the world and if that makes them too expensive fine. It's not about me not flying to Japan. It's about me paying the full price of the damage I cause by flying to Japan. It is only by paying the full price for environmental damage will we start to take alternatives seriously. At the moment NO ONE pays for the ever increasing damage done to the eco-system (except the third world poor but they are just the majority). In that way capitalism is a SUBSIDIZED system because it assumes OUR HABITAT has NO VALUE!!!!

quote:

ORIGINAL: sophia37

Here. This is for you FirmHand. Its from Ike.

Another factor in maintaining balance involves the element of time. As we peer into society's future, we-you and I, and our government-must avoid the impulse to live only for today, plundering, for our own ease and convenience, the precious resources of tomorrow. We cannot mortgage the material assets of our grandchildren without risking the loss also of their political and spiritual heritage. We want democracy to survive for all generations to come, not to become the insolvent phantom of tomorrow.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

1. Much of medieval life was not played out under feudalism but yes, for much of the population of the world their life under capitalism is worse than the lives of medieval Europeans.

Let's talk about the life of the "common man" during the medieval period. Some interesting quotes:

Medieval Life: Farming

  Life was hard for the peasants who worked on the farms. There was always something that needed doing on the land and they could not afford to slack in any way. If the harvest failed, the whole village could face starvation in the winter.

Medieval Manors, Peasants and Serfs

Manors, not villages, were the economic and social units of life in the early Middle Ages. A manor consisted of a manor house, one or more villages, and up to several thousand acres of land divided into meadow, pasture, forest, and cultivated fields. The fields were further divided into strips; 1/3 for the lord of the manor, less for the church, and the remainder for the peasants and serfs. This land was shared out so that each person had an equal share of good and poor. At least half the work week was spent on the land belonging to the lord and the church. Time might also be spent doing maintenance and on special projects such as clearing land, cutting firewood, and building roads and bridges. The rest of the time the villagers were free to work their own land.

...

    The Peasant's Life. Villages consisted of from 10-60 families living in rough huts on dirt floors, with no chimneys or windows. Often, one end of the hut was given over to storing livestock. Furnishings were sparse; three legged stools, a trestle table, beds on the floor softened with straw or leaves. The peasant diet was mainly porridge, cheese, black bread, and a few home-grown vegetables.

Peasants had a hard life, but they did not work on Sundays or on the frequent saints' days, and they could go to nearby fairs and markets. The lot of serfs was much harsher.

...

    The Serf's Life. Although not technically a slave, a serf was bound to a lord for life. He could own no property and needed the lord's permission to marry. Under no circumstance could a serf leave the land without the lord's permission unless he chose to run away. If he ran to a town and managed to stay there for a year and a day, he was a free man. However, the serf did have rights. He could not be displaced if the manor changed hands. He could not be required to fight, and he was entitled to the protection of the lord.

Health

    Medicine was often a risky business. Bloodletting was a popular method of restoring a patient's health and "humors." Early surgery, often done by barbers without anesthesia, must have been excruciating.

Medical treatment was available mainly to the wealthy, and those living in villages rarely had the help of doctors, who practiced mostly in the cities and courts. Remedies were often herbal in nature, but also included ground earthworms, urine, and animal excrement. Many medieval medical manuscripts contained recipes for remedies that called for hundreds of therapeutic substances--the notion that every substance in nature held some sort of power accounts for the enormous variety of substances. Many treatments were administered by people outside the medical tradition. Coroners' rolls from the time reveal how lay persons often made sophisticated medical judgments without the aid of medical experts. From these reports we also learn about some of the major causes of death.

Famines

    Medieval societies always feared having a lack of food. Crop surpluses were rarely enough to create viable storage systems and even the greatest lord could not keep enough grain to outlast a famine. By the beginning of the 1300s the population had grown to such an extent that adequate amounts of food could only be grown under the best of conditions. There was no margin of failure for crops. The problem this century saw was a changing climate, with cooler and wetter summers and earlier autumn storms.

Feudalism

The Feudal System was introduced to England following the invasion and conquest of the country by William I (The Conqueror). The system had been used in France by the Normans from the time they first settled there in about 900AD. It was a simple, but effective system, where all land was owned by the King. One quarter was kept by the King as his personal property, some was given to the church and the rest was leased out under strict controls.

Homes

Most medieval homes were cold, damp, and dark. Sometimes it  was warmer and lighter outside the home than within its walls. For security purposes, windows, when they were present, were very small openings with wooden shutters that were closed at night or in bad weather. The small size of the windows allowed those inside to see out, but kept outsiders from looking in.

Many peasant families ate, slept, and spent time together in very small quarters, rarely more than one or two rooms. The houses had thatched roofs and were easily destroyed.

***

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

2.  Yes, but you are implying I am suggesting we go back to the conditions that caused that life span. I am saying capitalism is not necessarily the cause of an extended life span. In fact the industrial revolution drastically reduced life expectancy and it took considerabe time to correct that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

There is an essay by Garrett Hardin written in 1968 called "Tragedy of the Commons" that gives many capitalistic oriented solutions to the problems that you specifically are concerned about.  It's been a couple of decades since I've read it, but it's available here.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
Homes

Most medieval homes were cold, damp, and dark. Sometimes it  was warmer and lighter outside the home than within its walls. For security purposes, windows, when they were present, were very small openings with wooden shutters that were closed at night or in bad weather. The small size of the windows allowed those inside to see out, but kept outsiders from looking in.

Many peasant families ate, slept, and spent time together in very small quarters, rarely more than one or two rooms. The houses had thatched roofs and were easily destroyed.

***

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Much of medieval life was not played out under feudalism but yes, for much of the population of the world their life under capitalism is worse than the lives of medieval Europeans.

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

In fact the industrial revolution drastically reduced life expectancy and it took considerabe time to correct that. The corrections were made through sanitation and forced and regulated health and safety against capital's wishes.

...Yes, capitalism paid for the new drains and clean water in the cities, after all, how can a capitalist enjoy their wealth if he was going to drop dead of typhoid the following week? So I guess indirectly capitalism was responsible for clean water and sanitation after it caused the problem in the first place.

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Anything that eats up ones time while in a somnambulant state ie. TV, computer games, the gratification of new designer clothes but anything that distracts one from the mindless tasks one has to do to obtain enough money to buy these toys that make one forget the monotony of work.

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

... the endless pursuit of material goods robs us of our most precious asset, time and largely to make other people rich. It's a pity people don't wake up to that fact.

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

I'm pointing out that archeologists have been surprised by the competence and knowledge of medieval medics, much has been lost as there are no written records that discuss medical procedures but knowledge there was because material evidence has been found. What I am saying is that there is alternatives to modern technological medicine that capitalism provides. In fact many European countries are looking into preventative healthcare because it is seen as cheaper and more effective with modern technological  medicine being expensive and mostly used in the last weeks of peoples lives on the whole. I am not saying we should go back to medieval medicine, I'm saying medicine capitalism has provided is not the big deal that is claimed in many instances. Yes, its a big deal if you are the one that needs it and you have the money but ask many of your uninsured compartriots what expensive technological medicine means to them. Nothing I guess.

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Actually none of this is about destroying the wheel, its about getting off an addiction that is killing the planet, changing priorities and considering alternative solutions to ever increasing economies that can't be sustained. It is not about me doing without my cigars and whiskey, its about paying a price for them that is realistic to the damage done to the environment from importing them across the world and if that makes them too expensive fine. It's not about me not flying to Japan. It's about me paying the full price of the damage I cause by flying to Japan. It is only by paying the full price for environmental damage will we start to take alternatives seriously. At the moment NO ONE pays for the ever increasing damage done to the eco-system (except the third world poor but they are just the majority). In that way capitalism is a SUBSIDIZED system because it assumes OUR HABITAT has NO VALUE!!!!

quote:

ORIGINAL: sissifytoserve

Why blame it on just Americans...what about the hardcore banking cartells in europe and who they fund?

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Well the world knows that Americans don't like facing the reality of what is happening to the planet. Everyone knows they don't want to get out of their big cars, turn off the air-conditioning for five minutes. Everyone knows that Americans think that polluting the planet is their god given right.

Generally, I've found that the most committed and partisan believers in Global Warming:

1.  Have an animosity towards free markets,
2.  Believe in re-ordering society by force of government edict,
3.  Are athestic or agnostic (antagonistic toward religion),
4.  Are anti-American,
5.  Aren't scientifically minded (are "emotional" rather than "rational"),
6.  Have utopian views about how human society should function.

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Well the world knows that Americans don't like facing the reality of what is happening to the planet. Everyone knows they don't want to get out of their big cars, turn off the air-conditioning for five minutes. Everyone knows that Americans think that polluting the planet is their god given right.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

1.  Have an animosity towards free markets,
2.  Believe in re-ordering society by force of government edict,
3.  Are athestic or agnostic (antagonistic toward religion),
4.  Are anti-American,
5.  Aren't scientifically minded (are "emotional" rather than "rational"),
6.  Have utopian views about how human society should function.

Generally, I've found that the most committed and partisan believers in Global Warming:

1.  Have an animosity towards free markets,
The largest and best performing global corporations are generally now moving on board with sustainability and in effct consider the global warming issue to be occuring. Even GM has now moved out of the "the science isn't their camp"
2.  Believe in re-ordering society by force of government edict,
Probably because you havn't looked. Bill Gates, old Arnie Schwar...anator, Tony Blair - hardly Stalinists. 
4.  Are anti-American,
Some of the biggest activist are Americans, it is the fact that by which ever measure you use, and which ever scientific report comes out the citizens of the US are proportinately the biggest offenders, followed by western Europe. There is now a shift in the US general public view but not their actions, but a few intelectual dinasaurs remain...actually quite a few.
5.  Aren't scientifically minded (are "emotional" rather than "rational"),
June 2005 joint staement by the senior science acadamies of the G* plus India, China, Russia & Brazil, including National Academy of Sciences, (USA), -  science is "human activities are now causing.....
Refer to the joint statement a few days ago by 10,000 US scientists including scientific advisers to every president since Eisenhower....."protesting about politicians misrepresenting data for political reasons." ......
6.  Have utopian views about how human society should function.
Nope just want there to be a human society functioning in 100 years.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Well the world knows that Americans don't like facing the reality of what is happening to the planet. Everyone knows they don't want to get out of their big cars, turn off the air-conditioning for five minutes. Everyone knows that Americans think that polluting the planet is their god given right.

FirmKY said in Post 26:

Generally, I've found that the most committed and partisan believers in Global Warming:

1.  Have an animosity towards free markets,
2.  Believe in re-ordering society by force of government edict,
3.  Are athestic or agnostic (antagonistic toward religion),
4.  Are anti-American,
5.  Aren't scientifically minded (are "emotional" rather than "rational"),
6.  Have utopian views about how human society should function.

***

I guess, meatcleaver, that we've gotten down to the true grit of your beliefs, now, haven't we?

FirmKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dtesmoac

4.  Are anti-American,
Some of the biggest activist are Americans, it is the fact that by which ever measure you use, and which ever scientific report comes out the citizens of the US are proportinately the biggest offenders, followed by western Europe. There is now a shift in the US general public view but not their actions, but a few intelectual dinasaurs remain...actually quite a few.

FirmKY

Your talking hot air.......o sorry you don't believe in that...........