RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda.

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RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/15/2006 6:38:09 PM

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Meat,

I hope I am not taking your post out of context, but it is still lassize faire commerce, just upped a notch.

Ron

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RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/15/2006 6:50:57 PM

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Well, my detailed plan is like yours, we just read different papers.

my facile dismissal.......
Now that bothers me Dan'l........while you may think I don't give one iota of thought to the things you post, nothing can be further from the truth.

You quoted ancient documents that glad-handed a much more somber reality and I responded in kind.

This does raise an interesting question, since most of the media that disagrees with the current adminsistration could be labeled as flamingly liberal. Is there really a right and wrong to that part of the question, because this seems to be the praxis of the matter,

the world is good, are you better off than you were four years ago? Once the rallying cry of the nation..........yes, was at one time the answer, although far flung from the administration that asked the question............
But the situation reminds me of the Hoover years, when the headlines in the media said, Hoover finds no fault with the current situation.

If I were to force a hot copper up my slaves ass and say doesn't that make your mouth feel cool?..........am I thereby not a good steward of my time?

Ron ONLY

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RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/15/2006 8:14:05 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Let's get this clear. I wasn't advocating going back to the medieval era and of course with todays population anythought of that would be nonsense. I was pointing out that society can be differently ordered. Capitalism hasn't given us as much as many people like to think it has. It's given us a lot of smoke and mirrors, it might have made a minority of the world more physically comfortable but I doubt it has improved mental health or the psychological quality of life.

Having spent a couple of years in the French countryside in a medieval house with just wood fire heating, it wasn't bad. In fact it was quite rewarding to step out of the rat race and do a few hours physical work a day, chat and barter with other locals for goods I needed. Totally romantic and totally unrealistic in solving the world's problems but it made me realise there are better ways to live than selling ones soul for the latest TV, the latest fashion accessoiries or a new car.

Then why aren't you still living like that?

I don't disagree that there are better ways to live. Personally, I've spent many years researching and dabbling in alternative lifestyles... and I'm not talking BDSM.

It's very well possible that one day I'll be living off the grid and have no compunctions about doing so. I'll even go so far as to claim that with the knowledge and skills I've acquired, I'd live every bit as comfortably as I do now.

But do you know what I find interesting? That idylllic lifestyle... the provincial cottage in the countryside... the few hours physical work a day, chatting and bartering with other locals for goods needed...

That's such a capitalistic existence.

< Message edited by losttreasure -- 12/15/2006 8:16:17 PM >

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RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/15/2006 8:17:48 PM

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quote:

But do you know what I find interesting? That idylllic lifestyle... the provincial cottage in the countryside... the few hours physical work a day, chatting and bartering with other locals for goods needed...

interesting, actually fascinating, but not real.

Ron

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30

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RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/15/2006 8:58:52 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

quote:

But do you know what I find interesting? That idylllic lifestyle... the provincial cottage in the countryside... the few hours physical work a day, chatting and bartering with other locals for goods needed...

interesting, actually fascinating, but not real.

Ron

Well... I wouldn't go so far as to accuse meatcleaver of lying. If he says he lived like that, then who are we to say it's not real?

(in reply to mnottertail)

RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/15/2006 9:01:01 PM

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well, anyone can swarm up on reality. but I live that life and don't think it is that simple.

Ron

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RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/15/2006 10:24:21 PM

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The only problem I see here is the assumption that it isn't in the capitalist's interest to correct environmental problems. There does seem to be more focus on energy conservation these days than in the past.You can argue it's still not enough. And I only see it becoming more prevalent as time passes. GM is supposed to be coming out with a plug-in hybrid shortly. AMD is always hyping that it's chips use less wattage for the same job. Companies are beginning to switch from NI-CAD batteries, to the safer NI-MH. When you go shopping for appliances there are always those energy consumption labels that tell you the approximate energy costs. Solar panel, wind, wave research is exploding, and increased production is not far out as some new plants are going up. Etc. Etc. Etc...

It's very hard to imagine that per person energy use hasn't nearly maxed out in the US, and will shortly start to go into a decline, as the dinosaur bones based cars start to phase out, and the hybrids/plug-in models start rolling out. It's simple capitalism, if you think the oil is running out as a company, and it will drive the price of gas though the roof to a level people won't be able to afford a car. Well, you better make them use less gas if you plan on selling a bunch of cars. Also if you think as a corporation that Global Warming is occuring well you can bet on the fact that companies will try to capitalize on that by selling you more energy efficient devices.

So, I really don't see the conflict here. It makes perfect since for a captialist to fight global warming once it becomes apparent that it is in there interest to do so, because you can use it as a selling point. SEE HOW EFFICIENT AND ENVIRONMENTALLY FRIENDLY MY WIDGET IS COMPARED TO THEIR WIDGET.
Efficiency hasn't been the greatest concern for most people when gas was .99 cents. Who the hell cared, when it goes up and stays at 2.00+ people started caring and if it gets and stays to 3.00+ hybrids will be the rage. And auto companies are beginning to recognize that fact.

I personally look at these things now for a couple reasons.
1. I actually do believe global warming is occuring to some degree or another(Wasn't convinced a few years ago).
2. It saves me money long term.
3. I just have a hate for waste.

Sale
Cha-ching.

It takes time to turn a tanker back to port, the same as it takes an entire world economy or national economy time to change it's view of energy from oil to oil,solar,wind,wave energy. But I do think there will be a disturbing shift in there were the oil runs low and the change isn't complete. But that is the individuals problem, as there are already choices, most don't select them, but more are every day. Affordable white light LED lamps another newer thing starting to become popular.

There are as many reasons to be hopeful coming from the current model as to be fearful of.

It's peoples choices that have created this world, and if anything is consistant no matter what form of government you select is that most people make bad long-term choices. The good thing is once people are slapped in the face they tend to get back on track with reality really quickly. I think that is what is beginning to happen with environmental concerns.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/16/2006 2:24:48 AM

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That's the same GM that trashed the electric car because their buddies in the oil industry didn't want Americans to have it, right?

Score one for the "corporations can't handle environmental problems if they're left to their own devices" column.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou

GM is supposed to be coming out with a plug-in hybrid shortly.

(in reply to NeedToUseYou)

RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/16/2006 2:40:12 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: losttreasure

Then why aren't you still living like that?

Too much travelling to visit my daughters in Amsterdam and Kyoto. I probably would still live there if it wasn't for my need to pay for my daughters upbringing and education but because I think I have a responsibility to them I have to earn hard cash. If I didn't have dependents I would definitely live there but I live modestly here too. My studio is very well insulated and needs little heating, I cycle everywhere. One doesn't have to live in the backwoods and cut oneself off from society to live a more environmentally friendly life style.

quote:

ORIGINAL: losttreasure

But do you know what I find interesting? That idylllic lifestyle... the provincial cottage in the countryside... the few hours physical work a day, chatting and bartering with other locals for goods needed...

That's such a capitalistic existence.

No it isn't. One meets ones needs and takes no more than one can consume. Trading is not a capitalist invention. Capitalism is about exploiting opportunities, making profit and making money work, regardless of the social and environmental damage one does. Its quite a psychopathic activity.

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RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/16/2006 3:03:50 AM

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meatcleaver, analyzing what you write, you would love living in rural Chile....in the cute little towns, with no walmarts or large chains....where people still buy at their corner markets mostly...look it up online hehehehe.

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RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/16/2006 3:18:35 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterKalif

meatcleaver, analyzing what you write, you would love living in rural Chile....in the cute little towns, with no walmarts or large chains....where people still buy at their corner markets mostly...look it up online hehehehe.

I will MK. I've heard a few people enthuse about Chile and I've never heard a bad word said. Soon as I'm free of financial responsibility towards my eldest daughter next year, I think Chile will be the first destination on my list.

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RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/16/2006 6:41:04 AM

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The capitalist system will work in the future when making the quick buck becomes less beneficial than making a long term return, until then & while utilities are so under priced many individuals will not opt for long term sustainable business decisions. But it is changing, slowly....perhaps to slowly.

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RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/16/2006 8:04:50 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

That's the same GM that trashed the electric car because their buddies in the oil industry didn't want Americans to have it, right?

Score one for the "corporations can't handle environmental problems if they're left to their own devices" column.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou

GM is supposed to be coming out with a plug-in hybrid shortly.

No exactly, while they did scrap the EV1, there was some merit to it. The EV1 was entirely electric, and as such had a very short range. Notice that no other major car company has a purely electric solution. This new car will be a hybrid which mean you have unlimited range, with the same benefits the EV1 had in that you can still select to charge it in between trips to further reduce gas consumption for charging the batteries.
I do think the plug-in hybrid will work for everyone, where as the EV1 was only practical as an in town second car.

So, if no other major car company even tried a concept like the purely electric car, I really don't see how the car company that at least made some effort is to lose points.

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RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/16/2006 9:19:45 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: losttreasure

But do you know what I find interesting? That idylllic lifestyle... the provincial cottage in the countryside... the few hours physical work a day, chatting and bartering with other locals for goods needed...

That's such a capitalistic existence.

No it isn't. One meets ones needs and takes no more than one can consume. Trading is not a capitalist invention.

Yes, it is. You cannot barter what does not belong to you, and the freedom to barter is part of a free market... something supported by capitalism.

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Capitalism is about exploiting opportunities, making profit and making money work, regardless of the social and environmental damage one does.

I see... you are blaming capitalism where the issues you have really stem from the ethics of people.

Capitalism advocates private ownership and control of production, distribution and consumption of goods and services versus community or state ownership in a socialist or communist system.

Regardless of economic system, environmental responsibility will only be a priority if it is considered a priority by whoever is in control... whether that is individuals or a government.

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RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/16/2006 9:30:19 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: losttreasure

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: losttreasure

But do you know what I find interesting? That idylllic lifestyle... the provincial cottage in the countryside... the few hours physical work a day, chatting and bartering with other locals for goods needed...

That's such a capitalistic existence.

No it isn't. One meets ones needs and takes no more than one can consume. Trading is not a capitalist invention.

Yes, it is. You cannot barter what does not belong to you, and the freedom to barter is part of a free market... something supported by capitalism.

We can say yes it is no it isn't until the cows come home. Hunter gatherers trade but I'm trying to figure out where capitalism fits into their collective life style.

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RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/16/2006 9:37:54 AM

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Well, let's accentuate the positive. I agree with this.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou

I do think the plug-in hybrid will work for everyone, where as the EV1 was only practical as an in town second car.

(in reply to NeedToUseYou)

RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/16/2006 10:10:14 AM

Arpig

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fast reply...Capitalism is much like demodracy...its the very worst possible way to run an economy, except for all the other ways.

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RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/16/2006 10:41:07 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

We can say yes it is no it isn't until the cows come home. Hunter gatherers trade but I'm trying to figure out where capitalism fits into their collective life style.

Again, capitalism advocates private ownership and control of production, distribution and consumption of goods and services versus community or state ownership in a socialist or communist system.

I'm not exactly sure how you visualize "hunter gatherers", so let's see if these metaphorical examples help you...

Communism: A slave from the old south (US) belongs to a plantation where cotton is grown. The slave is provided with the necessities of life as the plantation owner sees fit. If the slave wished to vary something in his existence... for example wanted ham instead of chicken as a staple to his diet, he is not free to barter the cotton he picks for ham. He is not free to stop growing cotton and start raising pigs. The ownership and control of the production, distribution and consumption of goods belongs to the plantation owner.

Socialism: In a Hutterite community, the decision of what to farm and produce, what purchases are made, and even what each member consumes daily (meals are taken by the entire colony in a common long room) is made on a collective basis. If a Hutterian family desires a larger house, they are not free to set aside and save any of what they produce to use in trade for bigger accomodations. Everything belongs to the community and they must live with what they are assigned.

Capitalism: A young man discovers that he has a penchant for fixing automobile engines. He develops his skill, acquires the tools needed, and sets himself up in business. He has the freedom to control his business... he decides when and how much work he will perform, and what he will take in trade for his services based on the value that others place on his services. Whether he prospers or fails is up to him and he is solely responsible for his lot in life.

So, you tell me... where would a hunter gatherer fit in the above?

< Message edited by losttreasure -- 12/16/2006 10:51:35 AM >

(in reply to meatcleaver)

RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/16/2006 11:03:46 AM

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I have to disagree with your examples here. First, you can not truly seperate communism and socialism. Communism is an extension of socialism. According to Marxist theory, hunter gatherers would have been communists because they lived in communities where food, fire, and shelter would be shared. Even the family unit as run today can be seen as a unit of communism. Plato showed early communist thoughts in his writing when he expressed that utopia is a shared community. A single plantation owner can not be a symbol of communism because communism seeks to be stateless as well as classless, and an owner would be the head of a state- something in conflict with communism.
Capitalism is when corporations or private individuals own the means of production and operate for profit- hunter gatheres did not operate for profit but for survival. In essence, you could say early humans were socialists, with a few communities qualifiying for a communist classification.

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RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/16/2006 11:13:18 AM

DrgnLdyCatherine

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Sounds like globalization propaganda crap.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

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