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RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/17/2006 3:42:41 AM

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That's COMPLETELY untrue, and, frankly, tells me that you don't know what you're talking about. Humans emit over 20 billion tons of CO2 per year (http://www.enerdata.fr/enerdatauk/products/demo/yearbook/Pages/co2.pdf). What volcano emits 20 billion tons of CO2?

Why don't you read this, since it refutes the very piece of misinformation that you're spreading:

http://illconsidered.blogspot.com/2006/02/volcanos-emit-more-co2.html

Put it this way. The last time greenhouse gas concentrations were this high was MILLIONS of years ago. You really think that's just the climate doing its own thing?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

One good volcano blast can pump hundreds, if not thousands more times greenhouse gases into the atmosphere in one shot than all of human activity in years or even decades.

(in reply to Marc2b)

RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/17/2006 6:05:39 PM

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Yes, there are studies that say humans put out more CO2 than volcanos, and there are studies that say volcanos put out more CO2 than humans, and there are studies that say "we’re not really sure which." Contrary to what most of the media tell you, there is no consensus amongst scientists about the causes, effects, or even the existence of global warming. There is also the fact that major volcanic eruptions usually result in a cooling spell (Mount Tambora and "the year without a summer" for example). All of this is irrelevant to what I am saying. You are nitpicking on one thing and in the process, completely missing the point again. The effect that volcanos have on the climate is just one small piece of a much larger picture. Humans and our activities are another small piece in that larger picture.

It fell like I must reiterate that I am all in favor of reducing our emissions and other waste products for the simple reason that I (like most others, I presume) prefer fresh air over polluted air, clean lakes and rivers over dirty lakes and rivers, etc. What I am opposed to are two things.

First, this notion that we can arrest, and keep in a holding pattern, the current state of Earth’s climate (and ecology). It is arrogant to think that we could be that God-like. Might as well try to stop continental drift (which also affects the climate, albeit on a much larger time scale), or try to stop the stars from moving. Change is inevitable. The universe is governed by change. Everything changes (with only one ironic exception). Ultimately, all we can hope to do is what the human race has been doing all along – adapt to the change. So far, we’ve shown ourselves to be pretty good at it. There is an unfortunate price to be paid – not everyone will successfully adapt. Some will be lost along the way. The species, however, will survive (at least in the intermediate term, I say again, our ultimate extinction is inevitable).

The second thing I am opposed to is this panicky, "we have to do something right now or we’re all going to die – AHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!," mentality we see in the media and being swallowed whole by so many. People accuse the Bush administration of using fear to manipulate people to acquiesce to their agenda. Has it occurred to you that others may be using of fear global warming to manipulate others. There is a lot of money to be made in the "fight against global warming" and a lot of power to be had. The power, aside from it’s natural attraction to the darkest parts of the human soul, is necessary to implement the "necessary changes" needed to stop global warming. The power is necessary because not everyone will want to go along with the "necessary changes." Whatever their reasons (religious, cultural, belief in different economic and social theories, etc) those people will have to be coerced by the power of the state. Totalitarianism is too high a price to pay. It is tragic enough when people die of natural catastrophes. It is both tragic and criminal when they die of mass social experiments chasing the illusion of utopia.

< Message edited by Marc2b -- 12/17/2006 6:07:55 PM >

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RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/17/2006 7:50:22 PM

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quote:

10-20 or 30 years might seem a long time in a human life span, it is no time at all in the scheme of things

I couldn’t agree more but my point was to be wary of doomsday scenarios. In this case the oceans will be dead – not over fished but dead – in ten years. A prediction that obviously did not come true.

quote:

Life is resilient and what maybe be a disaster for one species is paradise for another. The problem is we are making a situation that is going to be a potential disaster for our species!

There is nothing potential about disasters. They have been occurring since day one and will continue to occur until the end of time. Once again I feel like I have to repeat myself and say that I am not against a clean planet. I am opposed to some of the so called solutions that will not have really solve the problem and may even create bigger problems for humanity.

quote:

Your thinking is like the farmer that didn't change. However, you are over playing the bread reason for causing the French revolution. The seeds of the French revolution had been planted decades before and it was little to do with crops and everything to do with politics.

I won’t dispute that politics played a major role in the French Revolution (another example of "reformers" gleefully oppressing people for "the greater good"). Tensions had been building for some time. The crop failures and the resultant starvation were, however, what brought things to a head. If the harvest had not failed it is possible that the French Revolution may not have happened, may have been delayed a few years, or taken an entirely different course. My point remains the same, that climate change has always affected human history, culture, etc. It is ridiculous to think that it won’t continue to do so.

quote:

Wishful thinking. It just depends how hot the planet gets.

Nothing wishful about it at all. Based on what we know about human history I think it is entirely realistic to believe that humanity is up to the task of surviving climate change. We’ve been doing it since day one. It is highly unlikely that we can heat up the planet enough to kill us all. Even if you believe that we, and we alone, are heating up the planet the worst case scenario would have our civilization collapsing and thus all the emission producing factories, etc, ceasing activity. Temperatures would eventually decline again. The ecosystem has shown an amazing ability to bring itself into balance when something has gone out of whack.

quote:

A potential 1 meter in 100 years a gradual and imperceptible rise? Have you any idea how much habitatable land will be covered in water, how many potential refugees there will be on an already over populated planet where much of the habitat has been laid waste?

Assuming that predication is accurate. There are, no doubt, studies that dispute it. That aside, I never said that adapting to climate change won’t be without potential catastrophe. I don’t want to see catastrophe, but I accept the fact that catastrophe, in one form or another, is inevitable because (one again) change is inevitable. What I don’t want to see is another bunch of "reformers" gleefully oppressing us in order to save us from ourselves as they pursue their utopian fantasy of a stable climate. I prefer a non-panicky, reasoned, approach.

quote:

I don't think you have seriously thought about the problem other than thinking you'll be dead so why bother, it will be a problem for succeeding generations to sort out.

Wrong.

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RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/17/2006 7:54:27 PM

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This is just wrong, and I'm not going to bother to continue this conversation. I don't get my information about global warming from "the media." I get it from peer-reviewed scientific publications. "The media" don't even understand the science behind the issues (much like, apparently, the people who lambaste the media...).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

Contrary to what most of the media tell you, there is no consensus amongst scientists about the causes, effects, or even the existence of global warming.

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RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/18/2006 8:32:22 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b
Yes, there are studies that say humans put out more CO2 than volcanos, and there are studies that say volcanos put out more CO2 than humans, and there are studies that say "we’re not really sure which." Contrary to what most of the media tell you, there is no consensus amongst scientists about the causes, effects, or even the existence of global warming.

.......do you work for an oil company? Studies that suggest the non-existence of global warming are generally paid for by organisations that would lose out if their activities were curbed in order to slow down the human impact on climate change.
http://politics.netscape.com/story/2006/09/20/royal-society-tells-exxon-stop-funding-climate-change-denial/
There is a scientific consensus on this issue. To deny otherwise merely marks one out as partisan or very, very trusting of press releases from corporations that have a lot to lose if we were to go green.

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RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/18/2006 12:54:55 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b
Yes, there are studies that say humans put out more CO2 than volcanos, and there are studies that say volcanos put out more CO2 than humans, and there are studies that say "we’re not really sure which." Contrary to what most of the media tell you, there is no consensus amongst scientists about the causes, effects, or even the existence of global warming.

.......do you work for an oil company? Studies that suggest the non-existence of global warming are generally paid for by organisations that would lose out if their activities were curbed in order to slow down the human impact on climate change.
http://politics.netscape.com/story/2006/09/20/ royal-society-tells-exxon-stop-funding-climate-change-denial/
There is a scientific consensus on this issue. To deny otherwise merely marks one out as partisan or very, very trusting of press releases from corporations that have a lot to lose if we were to go green.

The problems with the "consensus" of Global Warming is many.

First, "consensus" doesn't make something so. There have been a lot of "consensus" on scientific and political issues that were just wrong. It happens all the time.

Second, what I find disturbing about "global warming" is the way it has been pushed, and the way that partisans have vilified any scientist who dares to even question any of the facts (not to mention the way that non-scientist on this forum are vilified for daring to suggest that some of the facts about global warming are open to interpretation).

I'll say that I'm not a climate scientist. And neither is anyone who has posted on this subject in this thread. I dare say that there hasn't been anyone worthy of the title "scientist" who has posted, either.

As I've said, and as marc has pointed out, there is a political component to the discussion about global warming.

Earlier, I gave my points about what I see as a common belief pattern of "partisan believers" in global warming. Perhaps what I didn't make clear is that I think that many (most) of the non-technical believers find the crusade to "stop global warming" an absolute godsend as a way to push their political agenda. If it didn't exist, they would have had to invent it.

To a partisan believer in global warming (and I'm divorcing it again from the fact or not of whether there actual is such a thing a "global warming"), it is the perfect path and rationale to try to achieve their anti-capitalist, pro-government control and anti-American agenda.

I know that some have said that perhaps many became anti-capitalistic and anti-American because of their global warming beliefs. I dispute this.

I can say this easily. A cursory review of post in this thread (and in damn near any thread or discussion anywhere about global warming) is replete with examples of willful blindness to see how capitalism has benefited mankind, and any calm discussion about how to use the system in a manner in which it operates to achieve their stated goals of reducing green house gases.

Several posters made smarky remarks about the "ancient" document ("The Tragedy of the Commons") that I posted about, which discusses problems and methods of societies that have unowned "Commons" in the environment, and how they are often abused, with concepts and suggestions on how to reduce or eliminate such abuse.

Partisans aren't really interested in finding ways to "fix" global warming that doesn't help them achieve their other political aims.

I'd ask how many of the true believers in global warming were "pro-capitalists" even before they were introduced to global warming? Few, I'd think.

And, the fact is that the "consensus" that is being so readily thrown about has come out of a very unscientific process. If any of the "true believers" bothered to research (with an open mind *sigh*) some of the scientist who had questions about the data and models, and how they have been treated (like heretics in a religion), it might make you question the "growing" consensus. A consensus based on blind acceptance isn't science - it's faith. A consensus based on intimidation, politics and an agenda isn't a consensus and isn't science.

Third, there is a high level of hyprocrisy on this issue.

The failure of the US to sign the Kyoto accord is often pointed out as something that the US hasn't done, and is therefore castigated about. Yet ... yet ... how many nations that signed it, have meet their goals? Or even made a substantial effort to meet their goals?

So many times I've heard that the US should meet a "higher standard" in it's actions in the world, and is called on the carpet when it fails to meet the high standards. Yet, other nations are given a moral pass because "we dont' expect better from them".

In this case, which nations should receive the condemnation? The ones who promised to meet their goals, and haven't, or the nation which said from the beginning that meeting the goals were unrealistic and unobtainable?

Another issue with the anti-US rhetoric over the Kyoto accords was the fact that the US was asked to bear a heavier burden than many of the "emerging nations" (such as China). Why? Well, because they are "emerging" ... and they aren't the US.

Wouldn't it make better sense to have a growing national industrial economy start by adhering to standards before it became fully industrialized, and then, after massive investment in infrastructure and equipment, have the additional unnecessary expense of adopting stricter standards?

Fourth (and this is something that anyone with an open mind can see), no matter what happens ... no matter what "climate event" occurs, it's always due to "global warming".

Too many strong hurricanes last year? Global Warming!
Almost no hurricanes this year? Global Warming!

El Nino changes course and comes closer to the US? Global Warming!
El Nino changes course and goes further away from the US? Global Warming!

Colder than average winter in the North East? Global Warming!
Warmer than average winter in the North East? Global Warming!

And, finally, a word about where we are today. Today, we have more and more people who may not be "partisan believers" who are signing onto the global warming bandwagon. Why?

Well, to be truthful, I'm not actually convinced that global warming doesn't exist. I'm not convinced it does exist, either (as a primary result of mankind's - and primarily the capitalistic industrial West's - actions).

But I have watched the way that the concept of global warming was adopted first by the type of people I mentioned at the beginning of this post - partisan believers who never let a questionable fact get in the way of their anti-capitalistic, anti-US, pro-statist beliefs. I've seen how these "progressive" souls have used the same levers of power, the same propaganda techniques, the same groups of "progressive" media to pound their message home again and again. What I've seen is a growing "consensus" when their viewpoint is the only one that is addressed. What I've seen is a technique reminiscent of "the big lie".

Again, I've said I do not know the truth of global warming. What I do know is that the methodology and the people and the groups who are it's most ardent supporters are the ones that I distrust the most.

I've always been suspicious of people who know "what's best" for me and mine.

FirmKY

< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 12/18/2006 12:58:17 PM >

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RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/18/2006 1:30:37 PM

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"Global climate patterns stretching back 740,000 years have been confirmed by a three-kilometre-long ice core drilled from the Antarctic, Nature reports."

"Initial tests on gas trapped in the ice core show that current carbon dioxide (CO2) levels are higher than they have been in 440,000 years."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3792209.stm

Stick that in your volcano and smoke it.

Z.

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RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/18/2006 3:06:10 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Partisans aren't really interested in finding ways to "fix" global warming that doesn't help them achieve their other political aims.

I'd ask how many of the true believers in global warming were "pro-capitalists" even before they were introduced to global warming? Few, I'd think.

Capitalists who acknowledge climate change keep saying the markets should be used to lower greenhouse gas emissions and then come up with absolutely no solutions and since ALL western governments are capitalist and westrern countries are responsible (China and India only very recently) one would expect them to come up with a workable plan. They have come up with absolutely NOTHING! Therefore the only game in town as far as realistic plans are concerned comes from the greens.

The nearest thing capitalists have come up with is an anemic chorus that technology will solve the problem while not saying what technology and when it will be developed and in use. Without available technology the next best thing is fuel conservation. Americans use almost twices as much energy as western Europeans and most of the energy they use they waste (much of the energy Europeans use is wasted too) so there is room for absolutely massive reductions in the west. The US should easily be able to cut its greenhouse gas emissions through energy conservation by at least 40%, that is 10% of world energy. It is estimated Europe could reduce its energy by 30% without much effort because that is the estimated amount of energy wasted in Europe. However, capitalists keep belly aching such efficiency would ruin our way of life but offer no alternative. If nothing is done, our way of life will be ruined anyway.

Dedicated capitalists are too busy figuring how to get hold of the next easy buck to be worried about climate or social consequences of their activities. If it wasn't for socially minded people with alternative visions to capitalism, the majority of people in the west would still be living in the conditions something akin to Dickensian Britain.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 12/18/2006 3:09:05 PM >

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RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/18/2006 4:14:07 PM

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general reply:

Global warming
Global freeze
Nuclear winter
Oil wells burning in the gulf
Volcanos erupting

so where is all the water, (or ice), that we are supposed to have by now? as far as i am concerned there is nothing to worry about since the same people who predict we will all drown from the ice caps melting in the long term future also predict that we wont have any fossil fuels left 150 years from now to create those gases in the first place.... and its a generally well known fact that fossil fuels is the greatest contributor to greenhouse gases..........so wheres the problem? Seems it solves itself. Then we can all go back to the fear of freezing theories and blame it on to the plundering of fossil fuels.

but for those on both sides of the equation who have nothing better to do than wade through all this stuff, i found this guys work to be quite comprehensive and extensive.

http://www.john-daly.com/

its all about controlling or swaying the various markets

< Message edited by Real0ne -- 12/18/2006 4:18:46 PM >

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RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/18/2006 8:45:12 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

"Global climate patterns stretching back 740,000 years have been confirmed by a three-kilometre-long ice core drilled from the Antarctic, Nature reports."

"Initial tests on gas trapped in the ice core show that current carbon dioxide (CO2) levels are higher than they have been in 440,000 years."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/3792209.stm

Stick that in your volcano and smoke it.

Welllll .....

A couple of things.

It wasn't me that talked about "volcanos" so, I'll politely decline to "smoke it", thank you very much.

This is exactly the type of attitude that I was talking about in my post above.

I'm a skeptic. The more someone tries to pound something into me, force me to accept it, the more that there is a feeling of "hey, you gotta believe this" I get, the more I tend to resist.

I've found over my life that when "everyone knows" something, there is a good chance that it isn't true, and I have to go through a pretty detailed and lengthy process before I'll accept their facts and beliefs.

I tend to be very much of a believer in critical thinking, and not much of a trusting person in what I read in the media, either good or bad about a subject.

The BBC in particular, is a source that I'm skeptical of, for good reason, as it is a self-identified "progressive" partisan institution.

And a critical reading of that particular article doesn't really lead one to any kind of solid belief that it has much to do with global warming. It's not a scientific paper. It doesn't give any details that can tell you much of anything, or place it into any kind of framework. It does, however, reinforce your belief of "global warming" if you are already so disposed to that belief.

Tell ya what I read from the article:

Over the last 400,000 years, generally the world is a much colder place. Occasionally there are "warm spells" that generally last about 10,000 years (which is about how long our current "warm spell" has lasted), but because of similar planetary orbits, our current "warm spell" seems to be similiar to one about 400,000 years ago. In fact, what the article says is:

That warm spell lasted a whopping 28,000 years - so ours probably will, too.

"The next ice age is not imminent," said Dr Wolff, "and greenhouse warming makes it even less likely - despite what The Day After Tomorrow says."

Of course, this is all couched in weasal words (as it should be): "probably" and "likely"

I might theorize that if it wasn't due to "man's intervention" that the next ice age is just around the corner. That it is simply the increase in CO2 that is preventing the next ice age.

But there simply isn't enough hard data in the article to make any kind of judgement. It's a reporter's take on some information, strained through a non-technical mind, for entertainment and reading by non-technical people, and allows you to read into it whatever your prejudices already are.

Take that and smoke it.

FirmKY

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RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/18/2006 8:54:51 PM

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"There is great controversy as to whether human beings have changed the climate," said Professor McManus. This is a direct quote from Zensee's cited article. Apperantly this scientist, who is actually studying this stuff feels there is. He works for The European Project for Ice Coring in Antarctica (Epica), are they paid by the oil companies? Several posters, and Al Gore, have claimed there is no controversy, and only idiots and people taking cash from oil companies feel there is a contreversy at all. So who is right the Scientists at EPICA or the posters?

< Message edited by luckydog1 -- 12/18/2006 8:57:24 PM >

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RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/18/2006 9:24:34 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Put it this way. The last time greenhouse gas concentrations were this high was MILLIONS of years ago. You really think that's just the climate doing its own thing?

I guess the high concentrations of CO2 millions of years ago caused the destruction of the planet, then?

FirmKY

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RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/18/2006 9:30:49 PM

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No, silly, but human beings wouldn't have been able to live in that climate. What good does the planet do me if I can't live on it? The greenhouse effect didn't destroy Venus either--but try camping out there. And global warming has the potential to cause grotesque hardship even if it doesn't wipe out the species. Just ask insurance companies. Cui bono, and all that.

Why don't you read a few things before making sound-bite comments? Of course, you won't, because you don't take the issue seriously. It's a vicious circle.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

I guess the high concentrations of CO2 millions of years ago caused the destruction of the planet, then?

< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 12/18/2006 9:40:45 PM >

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RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/18/2006 9:40:38 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

No, silly, but human beings wouldn't have been able to live in that climate. What good does the planet do me if I can't live on it? The greenhouse effect didn't destroy Venus either--but try camping out there. And global warming has the potential to cause grotesque hardship even if it doesn't wipe out the species. Just ask insurance companies. Cui bono, and all that.

Why don't you read a few things before making sound-bite comments? Of course, you won't, because you don't take the issue seriously. It's a vicious circle.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

I guess the high concentrations of CO2 millions of years ago caused the destruction of the planet, then?

Why don't you read a few things before making sound-bite comments? Of course, you won't, because you don't take the issue seriously. It's a vicious circle.

FirmKY

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RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/18/2006 9:42:45 PM

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With all due respect, Firmhand, and whatever else, I am absolutely POSITIVE that I have read more about global warming than you have. And from better sources, too. Globalwarmingisamyth.org is not a source.

But since this is the point in the discussion where we drop our pants, and we can't do that because we're in different states, we've reached an impasse.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Why don't you read a few things before making sound-bite comments? Of course, you won't, because you don't take the issue seriously. It's a vicious circle.

(in reply to FirmhandKY)

RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/18/2006 10:01:08 PM

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"In my estimation, more misery has been created by reformists than by any other force in human history. Show me someone who says "Something must be done!" and I’ll show you a head full of vicious intentions that have no other outlet. What we must strive for always! is to find the natural flow and go with it."

"Remember your philosophers doubts... Beware! The mind of the believer stagnates. It fails to grow outward into an unlimited, infinite universe."

Both quotes are taken from Frank Herbert’s Dune novels. I’m not sure which ones because I drew the quotes from "The Notebook of Frank Herbert’s Dune." A compilation of quotes drawn from the books that unfortunately does not identify which book the quote comes from. None-the-less I heartily recommend all the books – there are some real pearls of wisdom in them.

Wow. Where to begin, where to begin, where to begin...

I guess I’ll begin by thanking FirmhandKY for his most recent post (well it was recent when I began writing this tome, I see there have been several more posts since then). You touched upon many of the points I would make, particularly concerning the social/political aspects of this issue. So I guess I’ll just try to sum up my take on all of this – though once again, I feel like I am repeating myself.

This may not seem related at first but stick with me. I am going somewhere with this. I think.

The vast majority of human beings have a need to feel superior to others (one of the reasons I find the BDSM scene so fascinating is that it is here you can find this aspect of human nature formalized, as well as find the exceptions (?), but that is a whole other debate). The easiest way to feel superior to others is not through personal accomplishment leading to genuine respect and heartfelt praise from one’s fellows (because this requires a lot of hard work) but by inflicting harm (wether physical or mental) on others. By harming and denigrating others, we thus feel superior. This can lead to a vicious cycle that, if taken to the extreme leads to the gulag and the gas chambers. Dehumanizing the other is always the first step in this process. It is always easy to feel superior to the non-human other.

Most of us (and I do not exempt myself from this) engage in this behavior in small ways almost every day. For example, we get cut off in traffic and instead of just giving a quick "hey, didn’t you see me here?" toot of the horn, we loudly blast our horn several times (and maybe shout a few obscenities) in order to punish (by humiliating) the other driver. We feel smug. We feel superior. After all, the other guy is clearly an idiot – an inferior.

Most of us recognize this behavior in ourselves, try to avoid it, and at least have the decency to feel a little bad about it when our human nature gets the better of us. Unfortunately, there are many who do not. There are some people who develop a need to continually feed their ego at the expense of others.

You can find such people in all strata of society, the amount of harm they can inflict restricted by the amount of power they wield (in this context I am defining power as: the ability to coerce others). A rapist, for example, doesn’t have a lot of power, so he seeks impertinence ego satisfaction one victim at a time. Those with more power, say in the corporate or government sphere (all to often one and the same), get their satisfaction by coercing whole populations (i.e. higher taxes). Too much power when concentrated in the hands of those who’s ego can never be satisfied leads to the Holocaust.

Most of us do not want to admit such dark natures about ourselves so we come up with justifications for our behavior. The most pernicious of these is the notion that "we are doing this for the greater good." The leaders of such movements and ideologies cloak themselves in a mantle of goodness while the followers get absolution through association. By being part of a ideology, a movement, a cause, we get the benefit of having clearly inferior enemies. Someone once said (and I forget who so all due credit to whoever credit is due) that a mass movement can arise without a god but not without a devil. Someone has to take the blame. And oh what fun we get to have denigrating them and casting aspersions upon their intelligence and character. If our cause acquires enough power then the real fun begins. Think how sorry they’ll be for having the impertinence to disagree with us – to be different from us. And it’s not like we have to take their rights and their feelings into account, after all they’re (take your pick): capitalists, communists, Catholics, Jews, Muslims, heretics, infidels, niggers, spics, mics, chinks, men, women, Ruskies, Americans, pro-abortionists, anti-abortionists, Democrats, Republicans, liberals, conservatives, Miami Dolphin fans... do I really need to go on?

It is in this context that I view the Global Warming cause. I see all the same hallmarks of an ideology. Only facts that support the ideology are accepted, while facts that contradict the ideology must be ignored. Those who dare question the ideology must be vilified. Fear is used to motivate people to acquiesce to the ideology. Fear is a common tool of ideologies. "Do what we tell you or the terrorists will get you, or the Jews will get you, or the Christian right will get you, or the secular humanists will get you, or global warming will get you, or...

Now before someone accuses me of comparing people concerned with the environment with Nazi Germany, I am not. But if you adhere unquestionably to an ideology then you are treading the same path and you should question why you adhere to the ideology so strongly.

We must not give in to fear. We must continue to ask questions. How else can we be certain of our facts? We should always re-examine our facts (and our beliefs) for the most solid ground to stand upon is the well examined ground. Don’t just accept – question. For example:

Zensee said:

quote:

"Global climate patterns stretching back 740,000 years have been confirmed by a three-kilometre-long ice core drilled from the Antarctic, Nature reports."

"Initial tests on gas trapped in the ice core show that current carbon dioxide (CO2) levels are higher than they have been in 440,000 years."

Assuming for the sake of argument that the interpretation of the data is accurate the questions that pop into my mind are "why were CO2 levels so high back then? Industrial society certainly can’t be blamed for that (did we even qualify as human back then?). Why did the CO2 levels drop. Could what caused the higher CO2 levels back then have anything to do with the higher levels we have today?

Daring to question the evidence, the causes, and the effects of climate change will not make you into a greedy capitalist polluter. It means you merely prefer to keep an open mind and to march to the beat of your own drummer.

A few quick notes:

Lordandmaster: I don’t get it. You criticize the media (" ...don't even understand the science behind the issues") then criticize me for criticizing the media? Well... There are plenty of reasons besides global warming to criticize the media. As for reading peer reviewed scientific journals, good but so have I, as well as other sources. I do not see a consensus. Are you sure you are not using an ideological filter to focus on those articles that only support your current beliefs?

Philosophy: no, I do not work for an oil company. Yes many, but not all, of the studies that purport to debunk global warming are funded by those who have an agenda. But what makes you think that those studies that support global warming don’t also have an agenda?

Meatcleaver: you are missing the point about the "anemic chorus." It is a belief in the ingenuity and adaptability of humans. Nobody can predict what technologies lie in the future. Do you think anyone in the 1800's foresaw computers? In fact there are many ways we can clean up our environment now but these are usually blocked in the legal arena by (guess who) people who haven an agenda.

One example: we could encourage energy savings by giving tax breaks to those who build energy efficient homes and to those who generate some of their own energy (say, by having a wind mill in the back yard or solar panels on the roof). Not everyone will be able to do it and those who do will not meet all of their energy needs but they will still reduce their draw on the power grid (which is often created by polluting means). Pennies make the dollars.

This is just one example out of many. The fight for a cleaner environment will be won with many small battles, not massive social schemes.

I see that I am once again been inflicted with diarrhea of the word processor. I’m prone to it, I’ll admit. I’ll wrap up with three things:

People who use the word capitalist as an insult should be wary. Unless you live on a commune where everyone shares everything equally, unless you have never shopped at a grocery store, negotiated a pay raise with an employer, never sold anything to anyone, then you too are a capitalist. Capitalism is nothing more than economic freedom. The right to buy and sell. The right to negotiate prices for goods and/or services. The right to choose what we will buy and what we will not buy. Laws are needed to deal with those who are dishonest, yes, but do not confuse those who take advantage of others with those who deal honestly with others (they do exist). Do not lump the greedy in with those who respect others. Capitalism is a system that works or doesn’t work depending on the character of those engaging in it. Unless the computer you are using materialized out of thin air – you, too, are part of that system.

Anytime I feel like I am getting riled up and feel the need to start casting insults around (or, in other words, whenever I feel the need to dig in and not budge because it would hurt my ego to admit that I am wrong), I force myself to back off and reverse course, to remind myself that it’s just a debate and that the purpose of a debate is to re-examine facts and not develop feeling of ill will. I do this by saying: Peace, Health and Happiness to everyone.

I think I understand Carl Sagan better than I used to.

Marc2b

< Message edited by Marc2b -- 12/18/2006 10:12:40 PM >

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RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/18/2006 10:03:45 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

With all due respect, Firmhand, and whatever else, I am absolutely POSITIVE that I have read more about global warming than you have. And from better sources, too. Globalwarmingisamyth.org is not a source.

But since this is the point in the discussion where we drop our pants, and we can't do that because we're in different states, we've reached an impasse.

quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Why don't you read a few things before making sound-bite comments? Of course, you won't, because you don't take the issue seriously. It's a vicious circle.

LaM,

I think you know me well enough to know that I often simply reflect back the attitudes that I see in others.

I don't know what level of detail that you have researched global warming. But neither do you have any clue about me, as well. So, assuming you are "better" or "more knowledgeable" without some claim of why I should believe you won't get very far with me.

My mirroring of your own words was making a comment about your beliefs about what you think I believe.

I've said that most of my discussion about global warming is more about the anti-capitalistic and other social leanings and agenda of "true believers" of global warming. I've said that I'm skeptical about these "true believers" agenda, and that such an agenda is divorced from the truth or not of global warming.

In particular, the doom-saying is something that I find less than convincing, for the sheer fact that is a technique of control (inducing fear and uncertainity) that I've often seen used by anyone or any group (left or right) who have an agenda but are unwilling to discuss the facts and their interpretation in a calm manner.

Do I believe that man is causing an increase of green house gases in the planet's atmosphere? Yes, I do.

Do I believe that prudence may dictate taking certain actions to reduce this level of green house gases produced by mankind? Yes.

What I don't agree with is the agenda and focus of most of the people who wish to therefore impose harsh, anti-free, anti-capitalistic, statist polices to achieve that goal.

First, such methods in the long run will backfire.

Second, such methods won't be as effective as market-based methods, and will also cause as much, if not more disruption to the social environment than a few more years of "gas production".

Third, I think that it is hubris on the part of many to think that we now, finally, have a perfect understanding of exactly how climate works. We barely have an understanding of how weather works!

So ... when people (such as you) belittle and bemoan anyone who doesn't instantly jump onto your bandwagon, I tend to look for the humor in the situation.

I think you do much the same, do you not?

FirmKY

< Message edited by FirmhandKY -- 12/18/2006 10:06:35 PM >

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RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/18/2006 10:16:02 PM

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Joined: 12/17/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc2b

...Someone once said (and I forget who so all due credit to whoever credit is due) that a mass movement can arise without a god but not without a devil...

"Mass movements can arise and spread without belief in a God, but never without belief in a devil." ~ Philosopher Eric Hoffer in his book, The True Believer

(in reply to Marc2b)

RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/18/2006 10:40:57 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

What I don't agree with is the agenda and focus of most of the people who wish to therefore impose harsh, anti-free, anti-capitalistic, statist polices to achieve that goal.

Your version of harsh and anti-free is any restriction on capitalists making a quick easy buck without thought for the consequences of their actions. No one is advocating restricting capitalists in their pursuit of mamon, what is being proposed is that people pay 100% for the damage they cause to the environment. Up until now capitalists have used the environment as a free resource as though their actions don't have consequences.

It amazes me that capitalists care little about the consequences of their actions on their fellow human beings but squeal like a pig being staked when they are asked to pay the going rate for leaving their shit in everyone elses back yard..

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RE: Failure of the world-wide capitalist system ... kinda. - 12/18/2006 10:43:08 PM

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Joined: 8/7/2006
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quote:

"Mass movements can arise and spread without belief in a God, but never without belief in a devil." ~ Philosopher Eric Hoffer in his book, The True Believer

Thanks! I hate it when I can't properly credit someone. I've never read that book (but it sounds like a good one) but I must have picked that quote up from somewhere.

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