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RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/1/2007 6:54:41 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong
Discussing it with them is irritating... I'd just go ahead and read the books.

Ackk!! To avoid irritation, you would prescribe self torture?

Not saying anything about the "Gorean Philosphy" here, which I will admit I found very, umm, exciting when I first encountered it at the age of 13. But, having read one of the Gor books since becoming an adult, I must say that I found it to be one of the most atrociously written things I've ever subjected myself to.

(in reply to LotusSong)

RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/1/2007 7:06:27 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KaramelGoddess

This may have been asked before...

How do you Ladies feel about the fictitious planet of Gor where women are considered less than men, and submissive men are considered less than nothing?

I am having trouble wrapping My head around it. Perhaps someone can clarify it better for Me so I will be able to understand.

~Kara

I know I don't know much about Gor or the Goreans or the Gor philosophy, but as long as it is concentual between all parties involved, they can do what they like. I'm not going to judge them because it is something I would not do (from what little I know about it). Just don't try to preach to me and I won't try to preach to you!

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RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/1/2007 7:11:12 PM

MzMia

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All I am going to say is, if I were a male Dom I would look into it.
LOL

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RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/1/2007 7:32:52 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: nikaa

LotusSong,
How it is a "guy thing" when many women live by the Gorean philosophies and beleive in natural order?

Ask any guy (dominant variety) what his favorite wet dream is. Total, unquestioning obedience by any female merely because he is the male. Her identity is only the one he gives her.

Natural order is how you view it. Men hunted.. but brought it to the woman ..who prepared it, made the home.. kept him warm and dry. Seems like good submissive boys to me :) Women were not out there beating their brains out. Keep fetching boys, it'll give us time to be creative with what you bring us :)

And to the OP: nah.. not that wise. But like the Bible..if you are going to form an opinion, what ever it will be will be contested unless you have "read the books"

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RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/1/2007 7:41:54 PM

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Speaking from experience Katy?

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RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/1/2007 7:42:28 PM

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Will try to give a down and dirty on this, since it can be a volitile issue.

The books were science fiction, written by John Norman (a pen name for Dr John Lange.) There are 26 books to date, centered around a barbaric planet called Gor. The philosophies that have sprung from these books center around a male dominated society, where slavery, especially female slavery, is an accepted practice and heavily featured in the stories. Women who are not slaves (Free Women) still find themselves in a submissive position in much the same way an women are expected to obey men in Islam. They are expected to defer to their husbands (called Free Companions), wear a veil in public, and are not expected to actively or directly participate in the work force. A quick read on wikipedia or a longer article I wrote a few years back can provide a more detailed background.

The books themselves, aside from their entertainment value, appeared to be an attempt by Norman to offer criticisms on women's liberation movements and emerging trends of sexuality, as well as observations on the nature of gender as a whole. Clearly, these are controversial issues in the first place, and discussing feminism can turn into a flamefest within minutes. Goreans advocates male dominance, which is often confused with misogyny - indeed, Gorean ethos would be quite attractive to a misogynist, though most Goreans share the similar attitudes towards slavery that M/s males do. Personally, I've run across a far greater number of women interested in Gor than men - to the tune of 2 - 1.

Common criticisms center on the apparent harshness of Goreans though still some see this sort of harshness as part of it's appeal. The basis for Gorean philosophies in the novels is also a common issue, and often compared to basing one's life on Star Trek. The difference, of course, is that unlike typical fiction, many of the elements in Gor have a strong parallel to D/s and M/s relationships. It would be more accurate to compare Gor to "The Story of O" in this respect, though the famous French novel doesn't make any effort to explain any of the psychological or social implications of slavery or submission. The books themselves are not easy to read. Norman seems to intentionally use a writing style that is foreign, and is definitely an acquired taste - just as Tolkien's style is clearly unique.

Just as with any lifestyle choice, Gor is clearly not for everyone. One of the frustrations found with those who are trying to learn, is that Goreans don't seem very helpful. Goreans as a whole don't like to help those who are new (i.e. those who haven't read the books) because they often believe that without having read the books the lifestyle is based on, one cannot adequately understand it. It's a bit like a club that doesn't wish to assist new members with an initiation, because the initiation itself demonstrates dedication to learn.

I hope that helps.

On the topic of criticisms, most Goreans have pretty thick skins. They can be likened to the step-children of D/s though neither D/sers nor Goreans particularly care to be associated with the others. The similarities are, obviously striking - D/s is the closest type of lifestyle (and best set of eyes) one might understand Gor with. Still, nobody likes to be told that 'What you do is wrong/sick/weird/gross' and statements along those lines usually get threads yanked. Polite questions, topics, and observations are the meat and potatoes of debate, and nobody likes when their meal gets pissed on.

Stephan

< Message edited by Stephann -- 1/1/2007 7:54:28 PM >

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RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/1/2007 7:45:36 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KaramelGoddess

This may have been asked before...

How do you Ladies feel about the fictitious planet of Gor where women are considered less than men, and submissive men are considered less than nothing?

I am having trouble wrapping My head around it. Perhaps someone can clarify it better for Me so I will be able to understand.

~Kara

Sounds like you hit the nail on the head, what was it you wanted to know?

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RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/1/2007 7:55:25 PM

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I could’ve used you a month or so ago when I first ventured onto the Gorean forums. I wish someone had told me this before I had gotten into a "debate" with them. A "debate" that brought out some of the worst in me I’m now ashamed to say. I thought I was being respectful when I made it clear that I did not consider myself Gorean but rather Gorean influenced. That is, I had read the books and much of my formative thinking about BDSM was shaped by them. I was unprepared for what hit me for having the audacity to consider Gor part of the BDSM subculture. I got to tell you, for a bunch of guys who worship at the alter of uber-masculinity, they sure are a sensitive and touchy lot.

To KarmelGoddess:
Since I’m not a lady I won’t bother you with my overall opinion of Gor but I will say this. If you do read the books be prepared to endure some tedious repetition as well as some of the most stilted dialogue ever written. The shame of it is that John Norman can be a good fantasy author when he wants to be (which shows in the first few books) but he soon abandons that for straight forward preaching of the gospel of female submission thinly (and that’s being generous) disguised as fiction.

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RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/1/2007 8:07:42 PM

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Well I looked into it but then I read Andre Norton's "BeastMaster". Now I live according to a Beastean philosophy, which I find slightly more relevant to the world in which we live.

Smythe

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RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/1/2007 8:11:01 PM

michaelOfGeorgia

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the only thing i like about Gor are the serves. other than that, i think Gor is unreasonable and unrealistic.

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RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/1/2007 8:21:09 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KaramelGoddess

This may have been asked before...

How do you Ladies feel about the fictitious planet of Gor where women are considered less than men, and submissive men are considered less than nothing?

I am having trouble wrapping My head around it. Perhaps someone can clarify it better for Me so I will be able to understand.

~Kara

Different folks- different strokes.
**shrugs**

(in reply to KaramelGoddess)

RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/1/2007 8:24:57 PM

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*shrugs* They're allowed to have any belief system they wish. How I feel about it is all about "my stuff". It has no real bearing on them and only speaks about my comfort, or discomfort, of the subject. I analyse myself, especially if I strongly dislike something, and look at WHY it bothers me. It's always because I have a little bit (or a lot of) what I don't like in myself and I find it ugly or disturbing. Once I see it, I can begin to accept it. Just because I accept that it's a piece of me doesn't mean I have to practice it. But, in accepting it, I can learn to have compassion for those who do practice it...and say, as well as believe, that they have the right to whatever practices they wish (assuming no harm).

Master Fire

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RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/1/2007 8:35:16 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam

*shrugs* They're allowed to have any belief system they wish. How I feel about it is all about "my stuff". It has no real bearing on them and only speaks about my comfort, or discomfort, of the subject. I analyse myself, especially if I strongly dislike something, and look at WHY it bothers me. It's always because I have a little bit (or a lot of) what I don't like in myself and I find it ugly or disturbing. Once I see it, I can begin to accept it. Just because I accept that it's a piece of me doesn't mean I have to practice it. But, in accepting it, I can learn to have compassion for those who do practice it...and say, as well as believe, that they have the right to whatever practices they wish (assuming no harm).

Master Fire

I'll summarize it this way (as I so generally do):

Gorean women are the Phylis Schaflys of an alternative Lifestyle.. and D/sers are the Zenas.

I wont' begrudge anyone their beliefs.

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Life Lesson #1

I'm not your type.
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RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/1/2007 8:35:40 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

quote:

ORIGINAL: nikaa

LotusSong,
How it is a "guy thing" when many women live by the Gorean philosophies and beleive in natural order?

Ask any guy (dominant variety) what his favorite wet dream is. Total, unquestioning obedience by any female merely because he is the male. Her identity is only the one he gives her

...Ahem... As a Dominant Male I take exception to this. Frankly I find this kind of fantasy a pain in the @$$. What's the point in having a submissive/slave that cannot do things without orders, and have to hang over their shoulder to get anything done. Might have been interesting when I was a teenager, but I grew out of that a LONG time ago.

As for the Goreans... I find the BDSM community at large to be very open and welcoming, Goreans I've never gotten close enough to know anything about them. In my experience it's been a largely closed community, hard to talk with many of them or be welcomed to any degree by the Gorean community at large, wether they are 'Gor lifestyler' or 'Gorean roleplayer'.

In my opinion, if you and your partner(s) are interested in Gor, read the books or the web pages about it on the internet, talk about it amongst yourselves, decide exactly what it means to you and work on that basis.

Of course this is all just my own...

$0.02,

Dauric.

(in reply to LotusSong)

RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/1/2007 8:37:55 PM

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I have issues with any society that is based on 1/2 of the population being inferior. I did read 1/2 of the Gor books before I just couldn't stomach them anymore. The society of Gor is one in which any female - Free or slave - can be kidnapped at any time by a man, simply because he was a man. Male slaves are almost unheard of and when they are, they are designated to be the lowest of the low.

What I have seen from online and r/l goreans that I've met is that the "slave girls" in the chat rooms are really just obnoxious brats who need their butts beaten in a way that they won't enjoy, and that we are expected to bow to the will of a gorean male simply because he's a gorean male and we are female (even though we aren't gorean) - and yes, that happened with us more than once with people we knew in real life. We were told that we had to punish our boy for something that we didn't think he needed punishment for, simply because a gorean male thought that he should be.

I'm all for people doing what they wish in the privacy of their own homes, but most of the goreans I've had interactions with have proceeded to try and push it off onto us.

(in reply to MasterFireMaam)

RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/1/2007 8:45:39 PM

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If Gor is how you choose to express your feelings, I guess there is nothing that can be said.......

However, the topic here is How I feel about Gor, How I feel is this: How dare a second rate series of novels over 40 years old tell me how I should act myself or treat my woman.

Heck the next thing you'll tell me is that I should listen to a forth rate sci-fi author, who artifically inflated the sales of his books, on his views on religion. Oh wait that was L.Ron and Tom cruise and John Travolta do think they are space aliens.

(in reply to Dauric)

RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/1/2007 8:48:18 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnSteed1967

Oh wait that was L.Ron and Tom cruise and John Travolta do think they are space aliens.

shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!.. they can hear you. They have "ways"

< Message edited by LotusSong -- 1/1/2007 9:27:12 PM >

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RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/1/2007 8:54:17 PM

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Tal and greetings

If this Gorean may speak? First I want everyone to know if they have questions on Gor, they are free to contact me. I will be happy to answer any and all questions. I will not argue about any of the threads that have been posted. There is a grain of truth in all.

Now, what has not been brought to this discussion. First off, Professor John Lang aka John Norman, is a Ph.d who teaches Philosphy at the New York University. Professor Lang has written many academic papers on the BDSM Lifestyle, some, myself included have wonder if Professor Lang was in the lifestyle himself. However Professor Lang has never really spoken on his academic life nor his book of Gor publically . There are those who believe Professor Lang used the Gor books as a metaphor for his BDSM views. Oh and Gor is not in another galaxy far far away, in the books in orbits the sun in the same way as earth but is directly in the oppsite side of the sun. This by the way is not strange..there are some who believe there was a planet orbiting as well in the same path as earth many millions of years ago.

In the Gorean myths the war between the sexes did happen, Men and Women fought for control, the Women lost. The Rulers of Gor, The Priest Kings (I call them 10ft Cochroaches) rather then kill the Women, made them beautiful and enslaved them to the Men. However, there are Women on Gor who have Free, work, have male and female slaves, and even hold positions of power, i.e. the Ubara a Woman Leader, who shares rule with the Ubar, a Male usually her Free Compain, during an emergency. Then there is the Tatrix, a Woman who rules a City, there are a few of those. It is true in Gor Woman do not belong to certain Castes like the Warriors and Assassins. Nor do all Women also do not wear veils, that is only for those who live in the Cities, there are Free Women who wear leather and other garements depending on the region. It is true that every Free Woman risks being collared and made a slave. However, in some Cities the issue can be heard by a Magistrate and in the books some Free Women were freed.

As to slaves, I believe that Dr. Lang used the Free Woman vs. the kajira (slave girl) to compare the Liberated Woman vs the tradational Woman. The Gor books first came out during a time of Radical Femmists. The Free Women of Gor had alot as I have already said but they were not sexual, what Dr. Lang saw as the trade off. The kajira on the other hand were sexually free and this was on ongoing source of friction between the two groups. In fact in one story the main charactor with his kajira come upon a group of Alars (normadic tribes) he notices the lack of slaves in the group, he asks why and a Free Woman informs him the tribes Free Women became jealous of the kajira and killed them.

Further, I believe Dr. Lang used the Gor books to express his views on such topics as "Alien Aboduction i.e. Voyages of Acquisition, and more importantly the need for social structure and moral values that he saw as lacking in modern society. There are Behavioralist who now share then his views on this. Which to be Gorean is not to have a kajira, in fact many Free Men and Woman did not own personal slaves, most kajira were owned by the home, city, business etc. To be Gorean, is to hold Honor and Respect above Life itself.

In closing, Gorean do tell those interested to read the books. There are 26 soon to be 27, many are out of print and hard to find. They are all poorly written, many story line are weak. I hope this has helped and again if anyone has questions just ask I will be happy to answer.

I wish you well

Nosathro

_____________________________

"The love of a slave girl is the deepest and most profound love that any woman can give a man. Love makes a woman a man's slave, and the wholeness of that love requires that she be, in truth, his slave." Magicians of Gor, page 31

(in reply to Marc2b)

RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/1/2007 9:20:58 PM

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Hi. I'm not picking on you personally, it's just your points illustrate some of the common criticisms of Gor. I'm not Gorean, but I do enjoy discussing the issue.

ORIGINAL: SweetDommes

I have issues with any society that is based on 1/2 of the population being inferior.

I think the author took a great deal of time and effort to illustrate that women weren't even remotely inferior. On the contrary, it seemed that he was trying to illustrate that men and women aren't identical, in all respects. It was the opposing natures that he believed made them compatible. More times than I could count, he describes women as beautiful, intelligent, strong, and men love them for those reasons. I don't know anyone who 'loves' something or someone inferior. I certainly don't think of my cat as inferior.

I did read 1/2 of the Gor books before I just couldn't stomach them anymore.

They're not easy to read.

The society of Gor is one in which any female - Free or slave - can be kidnapped at any time by a man, simply because he was a man.

Actually, this is how society in the real world is - anyone can kidnap anyone. It's not a pleasant thought, but we're only as safe as we make ourselves. The books also show that when a woman is kidnapped or made a slave against her will, her family usually seeks revenge. There were also laws these practices, just like here - but if a woman was kidnapped from the US and smuggled to a hostile country (say, Iran) there isn't a whole lot that can be done about it. That's exactly how it worked in the books, too.

Male slaves are almost unheard of and when they are, they are designated to be the lowest of the low.

The books illustrated a male dominated society. If a man allowed himself to be made a slave, it was the ultimate shame - not unlike if a Samurai allowed himself to be captured in Japan. Slavery wasn't a 'game' in the books, nor was it considered an option. The books also illustrated a few men who were submissive to their 'wives' though the author's obvious prejudice against submissive males paints them in a very poor light.

What I have seen from online and r/l goreans that I've met is that the "slave girls" in the chat rooms are really just obnoxious brats who need their butts beaten in a way that they won't enjoy,

And subbie brats in BDSM chat rooms are just as irritating to me. It doesn't mean I expect girls at a munch to be hopping on top of tables, shaking their naked butts at everyone while singing the lyrics of their favorite Mariah Carey song.

and that we are expected to bow to the will of a gorean male simply because he's a gorean male and we are female (even though we aren't gorean) - and yes, that happened with us more than once with people we knew in real life. We were told that we had to punish our boy for something that we didn't think he needed punishment for, simply because a gorean male thought that he should be.

If I had to base everything I knew about female domination on the first female dominant I knew, I probably would be the worst sort of misogynist. Fortunately, I'm not that quick to judge.

I'm all for people doing what they wish in the privacy of their own homes, but most of the goreans I've had interactions with have proceeded to try and push it off onto us.

That's never been my personal experience, but obviously we don't share the same views on the subject.

Stephan

_____________________________

Nosce Te Ipsum

"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to SweetDommes)

RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/1/2007 9:52:11 PM

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I think its a badly written fantasy series that people have turned into a cult. A woman is worth just as much as a man. Women can do just about anything a man can which alot of men(and some women) find threatening.

Not all women are naturally submissive and most don't want to be a slave. I know I'd never be submissive nor anyones slave, I'm far to dominant for that. So that tosses their" all women will submit to men naturally" right out the window.

I find their belief that women are "beasts" to be disturbing. But hey if their girls like being called beasts, let them knock themselves out enjoying it. Personally it shows lack of respect, but then again maybe they enjoy that.

Most sub males are just as macho as a the dominant guy, you can rarely tell them apart. I will take a sub male over a gorean male anyday. The sub male is being true to his nature, the gorean is doing what he is forced to do by their society. I've had many gorean masters request that I dominant them but had to keep it quiet less they loose respect from their peers. That in itself shows how much the "masters" are controlled. LOL Fear rules them and submales are free to be themselves.

As I've said many times. Equal Rights For Men and Women is the only way to go.

~Lashra

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(in reply to KaramelGoddess)

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