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RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/1/2007 9:57:27 PM   
SweetDommes


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My posting was based on multiple experiences - and my experiences are that those "slave girls" who profess to be gorean slaves (particularly, those who claim to be "gorean pleasure slaves") are nothing more than illbehaved children who think that it's cute to be obnoxious - and there are always a larger number of that type to be found than the "normal" bdsm subbie brats.  I was in a chat room one day and 5 of them decended on the room because they recognized a name in the room - they came in, made fools of themselves, and up until then, there had been no subbie brats.  Afterwards, when they had gotten away with their attrocious behavior, others joined in and I became almost physically ill.  When reprimanded by people, the subbie brats settled down, and the "slave girls" laughed it off and continued with their behavior - how long, I don't know, because at that point, I put them on ignore.
I have also had multiple run-ins with r/l goreans (like the one who invited people to his house, and then because he was online, didn't go to answer the door when they got there, he made them wait because it's his house and his right to be rude to his invited guests), and at best the r/l interactions were neutral.  We were told to discipline our boy for something that he did (he was being a smart ass, although not particularly obnoxious) - he appologised for hurt feelings, and we were satisfied with that.  However, because it happened in the presence of a gorean master, we were told that our opinions didn't matter about our own property - that because a free male didn't agree with us, that our opinions were nothing.  There are other examples, but I'll spare you all.  I'm not talking about "the first" that we met, or even the first 2 or 3 - I'm talking about a pattern of at least 10 different men that for sure profess to be gorean - after that, I quit paying attention, and started avoiding interactions with goreans.  No offense to anyone who is gorean, but if I see a pattern developing that I don't like, then I will avoid the components of that pattern - the pattern of the last 6+ years is that goreans and we do not get along because they are not willing to let us be ourselves, so I tend to avoid them like plague carriers.

I understand that people can be kidnapped at any time, and that on gor there was retaliation, but it's still accepted practice in that society to go around kidnapping women to turn them into slaves - to me, that speaks of the same mentality that existed years ago when white europeans would go to africa and kidnap the natives to turn them into slaves ... and you can't tell me that there wasn't a serious superiority complex going on back then ... In the books, even the so-called free women were subservient to their menfolk - be it their fathers and brothers, or their husbands - again, that sets a tone of inferiority.

Again, I don't have a problem with people who are gorean, per say - however, the ones that I've run across before feel the need to force their ways onto us and then justify why they do so, and that, I have a huge problem with.  Multiple bad experiences will jade a person, and on this topic, I am admittedly jaded - it's not for me, and I don't see why so many have tried to force it upon me.

(in reply to Stephann)
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RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/1/2007 10:22:59 PM   
Stephann


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SweetDommes

My posting was based on multiple experiences - and my experiences are that those "slave girls" who profess to be gorean slaves (particularly, those who claim to be "gorean pleasure slaves") are nothing more than illbehaved children who think that it's cute to be obnoxious...

<snip>Multiple bad experiences will jade a person, and on this topic, I am admittedly jaded - it's not for me, and I don't see why so many have tried to force it upon me.


Again, I'm not trying to fuel a pro/anti Gor debate - I don't have a vested interest either way.  I find Gor interesting, though not entirely palatable for my own reasons, and that's why I enjoy discussing it.

In your situation, I don't allow a chat room interaction to sway my opinion of a philosophy or lifestyle.  Everyone knows that 99% of what you see in chat venues is wholly unrelated to the lifestyle.  I've only come across one or two BDSM themed chat rooms that weren't either meat markets or water balloon throwing contests.

As for your real life experiences, I wouldn't have much respect for the folks you described either.  In theory, yes it was certainly his house, and he was free to run it (or ruin it) any way he wishes.  At the same time, a submissive, non-Gorean male wouldn't normally be expected to behave as (or fall under) the authority of a Gorean.  Most Gorean males have very little regard for male submissives, but I don't see that as a flaw in the philosophy so much as a flaw in it's application.  It's like saying that a pro-Irish rally is more likely to draw people who are anti-protestants; certainly not all Irish hate English.

Again, kidnapping of women was not an 'accepted practice' according to the books.  It did happen, of course, just as slavers did kidnap people from Africa.  'Real Life' Goreans, on the other hand, do not advocate non-consensual slavery, just as real life BDSMers.  My girl and I are in a consensual M/s relationship, and I don't feel there are any 'serious superiority complexes' involved in it. 

As I mentioned in the earlier post, Gorean free women were submissive in the same fashion that Islamic women are submissive.  The difference is that real life Gorean free women choose their role - everything is consensual.  Just because the concept is strange to you (or me, since I'm not a woman), doesn't mean it isn't fulfilling to them.

Stephan


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Men: Find a Woman here

(in reply to SweetDommes)
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RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/1/2007 10:24:41 PM   
BitaTruble


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KaramelGoddess 
How do you Ladies feel about the fictitious planet of Gor where women are considered less than men, and submissive men are considered less than nothing?



I think the main misunderstanding of Goreans stems from the fact that those of us on the 'outside' tend to view Gorean philosophies as OTW when the fact is that individuals who participate in life as Goreans do the same thing that everyone else does - they take what works for them and they leave the rest behind and as such, there really is no OTW. Aside from 'natural order' there are very few constants which are strictly "Gorean" based philosophy's. Honor and integrity certainly can't be counted as "Gorean" because those concepts are embraced by people from all walks of life, including vanilla but it can't be denied that Goreans give a lot of lip service to those ideals whether or not they actually practice them.

Some will embrace much of the fiction (such as the use of words like Tal and kajira and calling themselves of a particular caste which doesn't exist on Earth) and at the same time tell you that the fiction has neither place nor meaning in trying to understand Gorean 'way.' Others discard all the fiction and live strictly based on particular concepts and words like Tal, kajira, etc., have no meaning at all for them. Still others will embrace the idea of what a 'man' is, how a man should act, etc., and leave everything else behind ...  and so on and so forth.

Male Goreans tend to think of themselves as (physically) superior to women and the 'natural' order is based on physical superiority over women rather than any sort of mental, spiritual or emotional acuity. On the flip side, females who embrace Gor also tend to think of themselves as inferior in physical strength so submit themselves to those who have the ability to take them (think caveman) and do with them what they will. Even those who call themselves FW (freewoman) do submit to men in a general sense (at least men who they believe are also Gorean) although do not have the 'fire' in the belly that slave girls are said to feel. Slavery and the relationships between men and women, however are the dessert. The 'meat' is philosophy and if you truly want to understand that, I'd pass on the books of Gor and instead study Neitzche (as a first step) as anyone who has even a passing knowledge of his body of work can see the obvious influence he had on Norman's writings.

So, to sum up - females are physically inferior to males - that's the 'natural' order - (brute force/survival of the fittest: soulless woman, he cried!) and inferior beings need to be crushed (read enslaved - the books advocate killing those who won't submit to the collar and if you're a male, you're better off dead than enslaved). A Gorean will tell you to 'read the books' (a phrase taken almost verbatim from Thus spake Zarathustra) and, much like Neitzche advocates, they will not explain to you what you must learn on your own because understanding will come through personal study/reflection and not by being spoon fed by a teacher.

At least they got that part right.

To answer the actual OP - I think it would be kind of cool if Earth had three moons, too, but other than that, I don't think much about the fictional planet of Gor. I do, however, have a tremendous interest in philosophy so continue to pursue that as an area of interest, reflection and study .. I just tend to read the source works rather than Norman's fiction at this point in my life. As they say.. why sip from a teacup when you can drink from the river!

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to KaramelGoddess)
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RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/1/2007 10:59:47 PM   
DiurnalVampire


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Personally, I think about Gor about the same way a Gorean would look at how I run my house.  It just doesnt work for me. Mutual respect for one another's lifestyle choices mean neither will try and force the other to conform to their way. The only time I ever have a problem with those of the Gorean pursuasion is when they do not show me and my choice of lifestyle the respect I show them and theirs.  Live and let live...

DV

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VampiresLair

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RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/1/2007 11:40:25 PM   
SweetDommes


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

In your situation, I don't allow a chat room interaction to sway my opinion of a philosophy or lifestyle.  Everyone knows that 99% of what you see in chat venues is wholly unrelated to the lifestyle.  I've only come across one or two BDSM themed chat rooms that weren't either meat markets or water balloon throwing contests


I'm not allowing "a chat room interaction" to sway my opinion.  I used a chat room interaction as an example of something that I saw over and over and over.  I also know how I saw goreans act in real life - some of which I could excuse, but when I'm told that what Holly and I feel is appropriate, isn't due to a gorean male objectin ... well, yeah - that right there is what truly soured my opinion of it.

I feel that you are inferring things into what I have said that just aren't there.  I have stated that my experiences are both online and r/t.  I have stated that the experiences have happened over a number of years, not just one or two instances.  Yet you still seem to think that I'm all pissy because of one or two people and a few things that they did.  I'm talking about at least 10 people, that I can still remember their names and screen names, and well over 5 years - this is not a "this one time this jerk did this and I'm holding a grudge" - this is that I have dealt with a number of people, over a number of years, all who claimed to be gorean, all of whom were people I prefer to never associate with again, nor do I wish to associate with people like them.

For the record, I have actually been in quite a few chat rooms that were lifestyle related that were neither meat markets (although there were those who tried to make them so) nor "water balloon throwing contests" - they were quite pleasant and comfortable rooms where people could actually chat and talk to each other.  There were always a few party poopers and trolls, but they typically got tired of being ignored, or at least once they were ignored I couldn't tell what they were saying.  The only ones that I had consistant trouble in were rooms where people professing to be gorean frequented (and I stopped frequenting) and one for a munch group run by a self-admitted attention whore who was two-faced to everyone in the group.

< Message edited by SweetDommes -- 1/1/2007 11:43:23 PM >

(in reply to Stephann)
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RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/2/2007 4:29:12 AM   
KatyLied


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quote:

Speaking from experience Katy?


Only from the experience of sitting back and laughing at the flame wars!


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RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/2/2007 5:01:17 AM   
Another


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Good morning,

I normally don't post outside of the Gorean forum, but this thread caught my eye, and I decided to read all the posts.   Seems there are some misconceptions regarding Gor and the Gorean lifestyle.  Number one, Gor is NOT anti-female, not in the slightest.  In fact, just the opposite, Gorean men embrace women, slaves and free women alike.    Gor however is a man's world, and most of the Gorean men I know on  a personal level do not think that women are inferior to men, just different.   That is what is celebrated, the differences between men and women.    I believe many people equate submissiveness to inferiority.  They are not the same word, nor do they have the same meaning. 

The book settings are indeed placed on a galaxy far far away, the philosophy behind the settings is a far different story.   What at times amazes me, is the fact that the Master/slave relationship, while yes it IS a part of the lifestyle, it's only a fraction of what being Gorean means.   Many people I know personally do not have a slave or a free companion and yet are Gorean.   It's not a slave that makes a man Gorean, it's his personal beliefs. 

Natural order, honor, integrity, strength of character and a brotherhood between men.   All this being said, women have an integral part of the world.   Not the same as men, nor do Gorean women try to be men's equals.   Not free women, not slaves.    There isn't  confusion in Gorean homes, Gor is black and white, it's about structure, discipline, and order.    Order, natural order, allowing nature to blossom, to grow as it was intended.    Our slaves are taught exquisite beauty and absolute obedience, free women are held to high standards,  and for all women, slaves and free women alike, femininity is the goal. 
If any of you would like to discuss this further, you are welcome to contact me off the boards.  

I did not post this to flame a huge debate between Gor and BDSM.   They are not the same, nor will they ever be the same.

I wish you well,
Another

(in reply to mellian)
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RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/2/2007 5:06:21 AM   
michaelOfGeorgia


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guess my post was insignificant

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RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/2/2007 5:24:39 AM   
Another


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Yes, totally.

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RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/2/2007 5:25:16 AM   
lunamor


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Thanks to Nosanthro for his calm explanation - it was appreciated!
Lunamor

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RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/2/2007 5:25:47 AM   
crouchingtigress


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quote:

RE: How do you feel about Gor?


non-plussed

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RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/2/2007 5:46:37 AM   
MissyRane


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Gor? Not for me but if you like it, I don't give a flying...

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RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/2/2007 6:47:53 AM   
Jasmyn


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quote:

As to slaves, I believe that Dr. Lang used the Free Woman vs. the kajira (slave girl) to compare the Liberated Woman vs the tradational Woman.  The Gor books first came out during a time of Radical Femmists.  The Free Women of Gor had alot as I have already said but they were not sexual, what Dr. Lang saw as the trade off.  The kajira on the other hand were sexually free and this was on ongoing source of friction between the two groups.  In fact in one story the main charactor with his kajira come upon a group of Alars (normadic tribes) he notices the lack of slaves in the group, he asks why and a Free Woman informs him the tribes Free Women became jealous of the kajira and killed them. 

 
Nosathro and Karmel Goddess, for me this pretty much is what led me away from 'finding Gor' many moons ago and finding myself instead.  The inference that a woman's sensuality is male defined kinda didn't sit well with me.   A slave to my orgasm, no thanks ... in control of my orgasms, absolutely.   I appreciate and understand and have experienced the 'liberation' a female sub/bottom can find in subserivence to anothers sensual wants and whims but I can equally appreciate that this happens equally for the male sub/bottom and is not just the holy grail of the feminine gender as Lang's Gor asks the reader to embrace.  Guess its the drawing a line that is more or less saying only women can be 'sexually liberated' that kind of funks with my mojo when contemplating the 'natural order' of Gorean philiospohies.
 
And I guess the dominant bitch in me thinks, seriously Lang? My trade off for not been a 'traditional woman' is no sex?  Or a lesser sexgasmic life?   Waiting for a natural order man to liberate me from my liberation?  I think I liberated myself with my brothers' stash of Forum magazines when I was a pre-pubecescent unmentionable ...
 
I guess in a traditional sense I can see the appeal in Gorean life but I wonder just how relevant the female archetypes in the books as Lang weaved them in his tails are to the liberated and traditional women decades on.
 

_____________________________

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RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/2/2007 6:49:53 AM   
Jasmyn


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Oh .. .and who actually considers themselves a 'liberated woman'?   Because it occurs to me, in modern times, is notion even warranted?

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quote:

"To learn the art of submission a slave must first give up the desires that drew him to submission in the first place." Mistress Jasmyn Jan 2005.


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RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/2/2007 7:32:32 AM   
fyreredsub


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Greetings All,

a girl couldn't help but chuckle at this comment...

She hasn't met a Gorean Master yet that didn't love woman and everything about them.

They believe differently as to the differnces of Man and Woman but they are NOT anti-female

May she wish You all well

PS we don't ride tarns to work and we do truly live on earth according to the tenets of the underlying philossophy that is penned...sort of like the bible but no diety

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"Accordingly, men must then either fulfill their nature, or deny it, and in denying their nature, deny us ours, for ours is the complement to theirs. " Renegades

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RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/2/2007 7:36:28 AM   
fyreredsub


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Greetings,

This one has never been in chat rooms role playing at kajira.

she tends to think that this is not living the life and no true Gorean Man puts up with a slave calling the shots or being rude.

After reading this thread a girl can see why Goreans are often misintepreted and the Men well they do Not put up with anything or coddle.

Gor is harsh but it is beautiful

it just isnt for everyone

May she wish you well

_____________________________

"Accordingly, men must then either fulfill their nature, or deny it, and in denying their nature, deny us ours, for ours is the complement to theirs. " Renegades

(in reply to SweetDommes)
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RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/2/2007 7:39:49 AM   
fyreredsub


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Greetings Mistress,

She thanks you for so eloquently speaking what she tried to say. A girl should have read further on before posting.

May she wish you well

_____________________________

"Accordingly, men must then either fulfill their nature, or deny it, and in denying their nature, deny us ours, for ours is the complement to theirs. " Renegades

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RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/2/2007 7:49:53 AM   
LotusSong


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lashra


As I've said many times. Equal Rights For Men and Women is the only way to go.

~Lashra




I think equal RESPECT for all genders is more appropriate.  Without respect, you can have rights up the yin-yang and still no peace.

_____________________________

Life Lesson #1

I'm not your type.
I'm not inflatable.


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RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/2/2007 7:52:31 AM   
fyreredsub


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Greetings,

to dispell some notions, this girls Master does NOT call her a beast. He calls her sweetie.

Master also encourages this girl to finish her Masters degree.

This girl started out as a Domme till she realized her subbie male slave was topping from the bottom and training her to do what He wanted.............so who ran the show still?

Gor made much more sense for this one.

A girl truly shakes her head in amzement at some of the incorrect things she has read today.

She truly is sorry to see so many have had or heard bad experiences

May she wish you well





_____________________________

"Accordingly, men must then either fulfill their nature, or deny it, and in denying their nature, deny us ours, for ours is the complement to theirs. " Renegades

(in reply to Lashra)
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RE: How do you feel about Gor? - 1/2/2007 8:03:03 AM   
Stephann


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Erm, not to be contrary, but not every slave wants to be respected for their gender.  In fact, as a male dominant, I don't want to be respected for my gender either.  I'd rather have my value expressed in who I am, what I say, and how I act - not what's between my legs.  

_____________________________

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"The blade itself incites to violence" - Homer

Men: Find a Woman here

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