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RE: Conspiracy Theories, (tin hat or otherwise) - 1/5/2007 10:53:01 AM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
because of ... your inability or refusal to use the convenient quoting system

Quite. I may have blocked the posts of some people for that reason.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
 i have little inclination to directly debate this with you.

Quite. I do not perceive any benefit for either party from such a debate.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
maybe others on here may find it a fruitful and constructive endeavor.

Not me.

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 81
RE: Conspiracy Theories, (tin hat or otherwise) - 1/5/2007 11:10:36 AM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

Hello RealOne,

The problem I have with most conspiracy theories is that they violate the principle of Occam's Razor.  What this states is that one should avoid multiplying entities.

There is another thread on here which suggested that the World Trade Center (all 3 buildings) were brought down by controlled demolition.  Various evidence was provided, thermate, apparent welding cuts, etc.

The problem I had with it was when I reverse engineered how many people would be required to destroy buildings that contained 1/5 of the total square floor area in Manhattan.  Tons of thermate.  Hundreds of welders.  Wiring experts.  Etc.

And with all of those entities that that conspiracy theory multiplied out to, I found it surprising that nobody had come forward at some point, wracked by guilt, and admitted to being involved.  Nobody had come forward and seen armies of people welding, wiring, carrying in strange boxes, etc.

So the conspiracy theory just did not make sense to me.

I dont want to reopen that can of worms, but this thread is on conspiracy theories and whether I go with them?

Sinergy


i view these things a bit differently than you do.

i have respect for occams theory as well as a fairly reasonable understanding of how to pull off a conspiracy of this magnitude and get away with it.

occams theory does not mean "make it more simple" than it is and can apply to any level of complexity as far as the circumstances require to practically analyse it.

It wouldnt take many people at all...  they had a solid week in addition to the fire drills as well as several empty floors.  Also they would not need welders, but they would need lots of sticky goo tape and tie wraps etc...

Here were my immediate thoughts.
On 911 when i first seen the building fall it fell into its basement and my jaw dropped with huh? wtf?

Then when wtc 1 fell i watched the whole top start to tip sideways, clearly at least to me illustrating that the core was in tact.  My expectations were that if it were to continue to roll it would topple over and take out a side of the building and come crashing to the ground. but it didnt.  People have to understand what the core looks like and its construction to come to this conclusion.

Instead the side of the building that had no fire damage totally gave away perfectly timed in a manner to straighten the top out again and then down it came and dropped into the basement. Exactly as i would expect a controlled demolition to do.

i found the manner in which the buildings dropped to be inconsistant with any of my expectations of a building that would have fallen by "any" other means than a controlled demolition.  that was on the morning of 911, my immediately thoughts at first glance.


The first question i ask myself then is:

Who stands to profit from this?

Then i follow very simple and basic rules.

Rule #1: Follow the money
Rule #2: Follow the money
Rule #3: Follow the money
Rule #4: Follow the money
Rule #5: Follow the pr/power

So far without fail every mystery that wound up being a conspiracy has led me to big hugemongous money.  From that evidence i devised my 5 rules of approaching these large conspiracies.

Then i apply my knowledge of electronics/physics/mechanics/explosives etc and take it from there with that regard.

Then we blame it on to a man living in caves that simply could not have pulled enough strings to pull this off.  Adding up the methods, the cost, the skill level, and the probability that a cave man from another country who would be under constant surveyliance is going to shut those buildings down for maintenance as well as many of the other issues i mentioned has nearly zero probability.

Its almost as entertaining as the zigzag pristine bullet theory if it were not so sad.



_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

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Profile   Post #: 82
RE: Conspiracy Theories, (tin hat or otherwise) - 1/5/2007 11:25:03 AM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

Here were my immediate thoughts.
On 911 when i first seen the building fall it fell into its basement and my jaw dropped with huh? wtf?

Then when wtc 1 fell i watched the whole top start to tip sideways, clearly at least to me illustrating that the core was in tact.


RO,
I worked there. The Towers had no "core". The structural integrity came from the  the outside skeleton. Long before 9/11 when controlled demolition became more standard I remember hearing that if the Towers ever had to be torn down it couldn't be accomplished in the standard manner for that reason. Of course the theoretical discussion didn't consider having a one side of the structural integrity of a square removed for 10 stories and a fire weakening the steel.

However, your assumptions and comparison of 9/11 to a any other controlled demolition is not appropriate. Also it should be noted that the steel was indeed the "best". What wasn't was it's insulation. During construction the builders were required to eliminate the key insulation ingredient - asbestos. Does your "conspiracy" include the 1972-73 environmentalists?

I'm not getting any deeper into this other than addressing these issues of fact. It is way to personal.

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 83
RE: Conspiracy Theories, (tin hat or otherwise) - 1/5/2007 11:31:22 AM   
gooddogbenji


Posts: 5094
Joined: 11/15/2005
From: Toronto
Status: offline 		Alright...  I skipped from post one to a few on page one, then directly here.  But, me being me, I'd like to weigh in.

Conspiracy theories are often accepted and expanded on by Grade A crackpots.  That removes a lot of credibility.  However, if you disregard them, disregard the entirely irrational items, and remember that the world is run by power hungry idiots, you can come up with your own, very interesting conclusions.

I, for one, love discussing ideas and concepts.  I love to dissect the world around me and decide independantly what's right and wrong.  Some aspects of official news usually are, some aspects of alternative news usually are, but all of it is propaganda.

No one reports something that is not in their interest to report.  If they do, it's either a mistake or calculated.  But no one reports well of any rival, either. So who to believe?  I have done well with my idea of no one.  Major events follow a pattern, which minor events don't influence.  So who cares about the minor stuff?

In the end, categorically disbelieving any source is the road to sheepishly following another.

Yours,


benji

_____________________________

Prevent global warming. Stop burning patchouli.

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 84
RE: Conspiracy Theories, (tin hat or otherwise) - 1/5/2007 12:15:15 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
The Towers had no "core".
Yet numerous websites claim that each tower had 47 core columns. Not so?
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
The structural integrity came from the  outside skeleton.

Indeed. So? If the floors pancaked, the outer columns and especially the core columns should have remained intact and standing.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
Long before 9/11 when controlled demolition became more standard I remember hearing that if the Towers ever had to be torn down it couldn't be accomplished in the standard manner for that reason.

Where did you hear that?
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
Of course the theoretical discussion didn't consider having a one side of the structural integrity of a square removed for 10 stories and a fire weakening the steel.

I have read somewhere that all outer columns on one side as well as some on the adjoining two sides could be cut without the towers collapsing.
 
The consensus, though, is that the minor fires in the WTC towers were insufficient to heat the steal of the columns noticeably.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
However, your assumptions and comparison of 9/11 to a any other controlled demolition is not appropriate.
Indeed, it was not. The demolition was top-down instead of from the bottom up as is customary. That proves your argument: "if the Towers ever had to be torn down it couldn't be accomplished in the standard manner".
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
Also it should be noted that the steel was indeed the "best". What wasn't was it's insulation. During construction the builders were required to eliminate the key insulation ingredient - asbestos. Does your "conspiracy" include the 1972-73 environmentalists?

It is well known that the columns and other structural elements were fire-insulated. It is also well known that millions of pieces of paper and bones were blown out of the buildings, but I have yet to read a report that states that pieces of insulation foam were also blown out of the buildings when they collapsed. Can it possibly be that the insulation foam adhered so strongly to the steel that it could not be dislodged?
 
Anyhow, the fires were so insignificant that they would scarcely have raised the temperatures of the columns and other steel structural elements even if none of them had been coated with insulation material.
 
Here http://guardian.150m.com/wtc/small/thermite.htm someone calculates that "122% of the gravitational collapse energy was necessary just to pulverize the concrete (let alone create the dust cloud), that is, more energy was needed just to pulverize the concrete than was generated by the collapse. This, of course, means that explosives, thermite or some other energy source must have supplied the extra energy".

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 85
RE: Conspiracy Theories, (tin hat or otherwise) - 1/5/2007 12:27:08 PM   
Mercnbeth


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quote:

Yet numerous websites claim that each tower had 47 core columns. Not so?
Not for structural integrity - they were for elevators, HVAC, electric conduits. The building was "special" because it was designed to have each floor be one acre of un-columned space per floor excluding the conduits in the middle of the floor.
quote:

 
Indeed. So? If the floors pancaked, the outer columns and especially the core columns should have remained intact and standing.
No.
 
I was going to address the rest but I can't. Do your own research and enjoy yourself

(in reply to Rule)
Profile   Post #: 86
RE: Conspiracy Theories, (tin hat or otherwise) - 1/5/2007 4:50:18 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
The consensus, though, is that the minor fires in the WTC towers were insufficient to heat the steal of the columns noticeably.


In reading the FEMA report i came to the same conclusion.  They do not say "it did not get hot enough".  They just give the temp that their tests show draw really nonrepresentative diagrams to imply the heat did it however and let you decide for yourself.  (thats the kind of crap work we pay taxes for lol!)

Of course what flies in the face of that is the madrid building that burned for 24 hours in a full brite blaze and even the crane was still on top of the core when the fire was all done with no disconfiguration of the core columns and that building was the same design but not as robustly built.


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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Profile   Post #: 87
RE: Conspiracy Theories, (tin hat or otherwise) - 1/5/2007 5:01:51 PM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
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Status: offline 		Why are you comapring a fire to a massive impact(and its not like it was hit with a ballon as you alleged earlier)  and fire?

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 88
RE: Conspiracy Theories, (tin hat or otherwise) - 1/5/2007 5:05:20 PM   
WyrdRich


Posts: 1733
Joined: 1/3/2005
Status: offline 		        I'm sorry to be seeing this thread turn into yet another rehash of the 9/11 events (even if I did reference that example myself earlier).

       The people who pursue these things walk a dangerous path.  There is much madness to be drawn into and some fall prey to it.  Others self-destruct with drugs, trying to stay alert to every possible connection.  And then there are the ones whose death by suicide or one vehicle accident becomes another tentacle itself.

      Why would anyone pursue a career or hobby where paranoia is part of the job description?

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 89
RE: Conspiracy Theories, (tin hat or otherwise) - 1/5/2007 6:07:28 PM   
Rule


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Joined: 12/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1
... a massive impact (its not like it was hit with a ballon as you alleged earlier) 

I suspect that a physicist will see not much difference between an airplane and a balloon. A well known analogous example is the way a physicist sees a cow: "Let us assume that the cow is a ball with a radius of...".
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: WyrdRich
then there are the ones whose death by suicide or one vehicle accident becomes another tentacle itself.

Interesting. Does someone keep a bodycount? How many of those nosy people have already had lethal accidents or committed suicide? Is there a website devoted to them?

(in reply to WyrdRich)
Profile   Post #: 90
RE: Conspiracy Theories, (tin hat or otherwise) - 1/5/2007 6:18:55 PM   
WyrdRich


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
Interesting. Does someone keep a bodycount? How many of those nosy people have already had lethal accidents or committed suicide? Is there a website devoted to them?


       Google 'Danny Casolaro' and have fun from there.

(in reply to Rule)
Profile   Post #: 91
RE: Conspiracy Theories, (tin hat or otherwise) - 1/5/2007 7:54:54 PM   
Real0ne


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Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

Here were my immediate thoughts.
On 911 when i first seen the building fall it fell into its basement and my jaw dropped with huh? wtf?

Then when wtc 1 fell i watched the whole top start to tip sideways, clearly at least to me illustrating that the core was in tact.


RO,
I worked there. The Towers had no "core". The structural integrity came from the  the outside skeleton. Long before 9/11 when controlled demolition became more standard I remember hearing that if the Towers ever had to be torn down it couldn't be accomplished in the standard manner for that reason. Of course the theoretical discussion didn't consider having a one side of the structural integrity of a square removed for 10 stories and a fire weakening the steel.

However, your assumptions and comparison of 9/11 to a any other controlled demolition is not appropriate. Also it should be noted that the steel was indeed the "best". What wasn't was it's insulation. During construction the builders were required to eliminate the key insulation ingredient - asbestos. Does your "conspiracy" include the 1972-73 environmentalists?

I'm not getting any deeper into this other than addressing these issues of fact. It is way to personal.


So do you agree or disagree that these photos are the core of those buildings?

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b321/rnrss1/wtc%20core/beams1.gif

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b321/rnrss1/wtc%20core/WTC-construction-goodpicture.jpg

modern wrecking is done by a huge sissors like shear, They just clamp on and snip.  Would ahve even been able to take down most of the larger beams with that.

i do not understand inappropriate, maybe hit me up on the other side so it doesnt escalate here?


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 92
RE: Conspiracy Theories, (tin hat or otherwise) - 1/5/2007 8:25:11 PM   
Real0ne


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Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Why are you comapring a fire to a massive impact(and its not like it was hit with a ballon as you alleged earlier)  and fire?


That was "strictly" an example of what happens to liquid in a sealed container, (such as wing and body tanks), when the sealed container ruptures and bursts due to a direct impact at a speed of 800ft/sec

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 93
RE: Conspiracy Theories, (tin hat or otherwise) - 1/5/2007 8:38:11 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

i view these things a bit differently than you do.

i have respect for occams theory as well as a fairly reasonable understanding of how to pull off a conspiracy of this magnitude and get away with it.



I am well read and an extensive education in conspiracy theories and the history of these.

Care to list a few conspiracy theories which were actually successful?

quote:



occams theory does not mean "make it more simple" than it is and can apply to any level of complexity as far as the circumstances require to practically analyse it.



I never said Occams Theory made it more simple.

I said that Occams Razor was a scientific / research principle which tended to support the fact that the simplest solution is usually correct, and that most conspiracy theorists tend to keep adding entities ad infinitum until their conspiracy theory is unassailable.

My personal opinion about conspiracy is that if you take X being the chance of the conspiracy being discovered, and Y being the number of conspirators, the chance of your conspiracy being discovered is X to the Y power.  As
I stated, this is my personal opinion and I will not provide empirical evidence to prove it.

quote:



i found the manner in which the buildings dropped to be inconsistant with any of my expectations of a building that would have fallen by "any" other means than a controlled demolition.  that was on the morning of 911, my immediately thoughts at first glance.



Every building I have ever seen fall down has fallen down in a linear fashion perpendicular to the ground.

Gravity pulls towards the center of the two masses.

The force of the floors on top falling (the equation is f=ma squared) increases with each floor taken out.


quote:



Then i follow very simple and basic rules.

Rule #1: Follow the money
Rule #2: Follow the money
Rule #3: Follow the money
Rule #4: Follow the money
Rule #5: Follow the pr/power

So far without fail every mystery that wound up being a conspiracy has led me to big hugemongous money.  From that evidence i devised my 5 rules of approaching these large conspiracies.



I am not stating I dont personally think there was a conspiracy to take the buildings down.

What I am stating is the general theories expounded by most conspiracy theorists violate basic physics.

I still think Monkeyboy called OBL and fed-exed him a box of box-cutters.

quote:



Then i apply my knowledge of electronics/physics/mechanics/explosives etc and take it from there with that regard.



I am not aware of what your qualifications in this regard are.

quote:



Cave man



You mean the guy trained by Monkeyboys father to be a terrorist?



_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 94
RE: Conspiracy Theories, (tin hat or otherwise) - 1/5/2007 8:51:12 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline 		This is like the 3rd article of its kind that i have run across on this now.  One of them from a guy who actually was involved in building the wtc stating the same.

If this is the case i cant help but fear the far reaching implications.

http://www.rense.com/general48/chargesplacedinWTC.htm


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 95
RE: Conspiracy Theories, (tin hat or otherwise) - 1/5/2007 9:05:14 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy
Care to list a few conspiracy theories which were actually successful?

Do you mean conspiracies here?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy
What I am stating is the general theories expounded by most conspiracy theorists violate basic physics.

Yes i agree while thinking about many of the governments claims that violate physics in the 911 case, kenedy etc

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy
Every building I have ever seen fall down has fallen down in a linear fashion perpendicular to the ground. 

Take a tour through wisconsin something and breathe some of that fresh country air where you can see several barns that are in various stages falling down caving in etc.  i have yet to see one fall straight down except through a controlled demo.



_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 96
RE: Conspiracy Theories, (tin hat or otherwise) - 1/5/2007 9:13:18 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

Take a tour through wisconsin something and breathe some of that fresh country air where you can see several barns that are in various stages falling down caving in etc.  i have yet to see one fall straight down except through a controlled demo.



I really hope you are not comparing a Wisconsin barn made out of wood to a 1200 foot tall steel and concrete building.

Sinergy 

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 97
RE: Conspiracy Theories, (tin hat or otherwise) - 1/5/2007 10:35:28 PM   
Real0ne


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Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

Take a tour through wisconsin something and breathe some of that fresh country air where you can see several barns that are in various stages falling down caving in etc.  i have yet to see one fall straight down except through a controlled demo.


I really hope you are not comparing a Wisconsin barn made out of wood to a 1200 foot tall steel and concrete building.
Sinergy 


no but then i dont suppose you have seen to many 1200 foot buildings other than the wtc fall down either



_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 98
RE: Conspiracy Theories, (tin hat or otherwise) - 1/6/2007 5:44:34 AM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne
In reading the FEMA report i came to the same conclusion. 


oops change FEMA to NIST (typo)


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 99
RE: Conspiracy Theories, (tin hat or otherwise) - 1/6/2007 6:42:28 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		I know presenting actual engineers explaining why and how the WTC towers came down won't shut the loons up but hopefully everybody else will read this article:
http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0112/Eagar/Eagar-0112.html

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 100
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