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RE: NO Limits Subs and Slaves - 3/7/2005 4:45:42 PM

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quote:

So are they just words in an attempt to express their level of devotion? the level of their trust? the level of their submission?

erin,
First, THANK YOU for your kind and generous words about beth and me. We are honored you feel that way.

I wanted to interject trust into my previous comments because it is at the heart of any healthy relationship, rocky road or vanilla. As you say about us, I don't KNOW emerald but it was her I had in mind when I stated that her limit, as limitless as it appears, STILL rests in her Master. He should feel honored by that position, as your Master is honored by yours.

Being a practicing agnostic atheist it's difficult to admit, but the Bible has a perfect example of this level of trust in a relationship. Remember the story of Abraham? He was told by this "all loving and merciful" god to sacrifice his only son as a test of his faith. If you remember the story, Abraham's son was born to his wife Ruth after it was long thought she was infertile. In fact, Abraham had a whole other "Poly" family with Ruth's handmaiden, but that's subject of a different thread. As we all know, at the last minute, god held back Abraham's hand. (Guess that would have been a good example of that old thread about "Mind-Fucks" huh?)

The point is I believe that emerald has complete and utter devotion to her Master and that she is sincere in her unqualified obedience. she needs no test of Abraham. But I'm just as confident that her Master's hand wouldn't go beyond the distance Abraham's did.

In my search for a slave, I told every submissive I met that I wanted a slave with "no limits". But I explained it by saying as a slave she wouldn't have possessions, or the ability to say no to me. I told her that I required any limits she thought she needed to be replaced by trust. If she couldn't obtain the level of trust in me that eliminated her need of "limits" I didn't want her as my slave.

Are you an "inferior sub/slave" because you can't give the same without prejudice statement that emerald did? NO! you could if you wanted, because you know your Master accepts his responsibility and commitment in taking care of you. your position, emerald's, beth's and others secure in their relationships can say the same exact thing. Turn the question around to the Master's and you may get a different response.

(in reply to mistoferin)

RE: NO Limits Subs and Slaves - 3/7/2005 4:56:28 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kinkypupper

Part of that trust level is the fact that their Master would not do anything to THEM that would cause them perminent harm. ( think of it in the context of the "fearfactor" tv shows.. those events are perfectly safe from one viewpoint but when u are standing there ready for that leap there is a level of fear that "what if"scarry

This is what I will say, and this is for my own relationship and not at ALL some statement that should be taken generally as what M/s entails.

The Owner expects me to be a competent independent adult to make his life easier and more enjoyable. I have no reason to suspect he would willingly do something that would jeopardize or make that less likely.

That being said, it IS possible that he would ask it of me, it IS more than possible I would have to die for a reason other than natural death or freak accident, and I accept the consequences of what ALL of that entails.

I also think my outlook on all of this would be very different if I had someone else dependent upon me for their own well-being.

(in reply to Kinkypupper)

RE: NO Limits Subs and Slaves - 3/7/2005 4:58:22 PM

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quote:

Turn the question around to the Master's and you may get a different response.

I think I am gonna pass on this one as I tried to suggest that those who call themselves Master's have some degree of responsibility last week and it didn't go so well. I liked the Abraham example, although I never realized God was a "lifestyler". (Ducking under the desk now to avoid the lightning bolts)

I think I do understand a bit better after reading your post. It just throws me so when I hear people state it the way emerald did today.

< Message edited by mistoferin -- 3/7/2005 5:13:23 PM >

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

RE: NO Limits Subs and Slaves - 3/7/2005 5:08:18 PM

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quote:

never realized God was a "lifestyler". (Ducking under the desk now to aboid the lightning bolts)

erin,
God may be the ultimate lifestyler! From my perspective I KNOW he is the ultimate "Mind F'er". And I stopped ducking for lightning bolts YEARS ago!

Hope you are your Master will be coming to Vegas in May. Just imagine having all these conversations in person! How much fun will that be!

(in reply to mistoferin)

RE: NO Limits Subs and Slaves - 3/7/2005 5:43:51 PM

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Access denied. Not allowed to have personal information to throw in my face at a later time.

< Message edited by RiotGirl -- 3/15/2005 9:44:25 PM >

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

RE: NO Limits Subs and Slaves - 3/7/2005 5:54:01 PM

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Hello mistoferin,

I have seen it appear in two contexts. One of which applies to me, the other does not. You will see profiles here proclaiming loudly that the writer is a "NO LIMITS" slave. Proclaimations like that often accompany the stated desire to be kept in a 3'X3' box and fed only hampster droppings forever. In other words, they are written by people who are not now, and are never likely to be actually involved. They like to fantasize online.

The other kind of "no limits" slave is the kind I keep. She knelt and begged a collar even though I did not accept or agree to abide by any stated limit or desire of hers (other than to be owned by me) prior to her doing so. She submitted unconditionally. She put herself in my hands. Now, she is not the kind to proclaim on a profile that she's a "NO LIMITS" slave. In fact, she certainly would have liked a caveat or two thrown in (or at least she would have before she was collared), but I made it clear that she would be allowed none, and I encouraged her sincerely not to submit if that was not acceptable to her. So, in her case, "NO LIMITS" isn't a defiant challenge thrown down, it's a quiet statement of unconditional trust and submission.

_____________________________

Take care of yourself

Leonidas

(in reply to mistoferin)

RE: NO Limits Subs and Slaves - 3/7/2005 6:12:14 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
However, we have had one slave on this thread already declare that she would do any of the myriad of twisted and ludicrous things that I listed....just at the command of her Owner. Now this is a person who I have also come to view as being of above average intelligence based upon her posts.

I bet the answer would have been different if you'd asked her if she would rape/mutilate/permanently harm her own child at her owner's behest. I find that lots of people will, at the very least, talk a good game when it comes to things about themselves, but when you bring the game over to their children suddenly the answers are different - suddenly they DO have limits, though it's still a struggle to get them to acknowledge them (because, usually, they say that their owner would never ask this of them. But then, their owner would never ask them to drink draino either, and they said they'd do that.....)

_____________________________

-- Sherri

A hard-on does NOT count as personal growth

(in reply to mistoferin)

RE: NO Limits Subs and Slaves - 3/7/2005 6:14:32 PM

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quote:

my daughter is first and i made sure i became involved with somebody who could respect and honour that. Yet, he doesnt have too.

Ok this is a perfect example. I know that you KNOW it would never happen, just as I KNOW my Sir would NEVER put me in such a position. I have two sons, both are now grown and not living at home. However they still come first. Sir knows this because I stated my feelings about it to Him in our early stages. So I do completely understand what you are saying.

We are going to speak hypothetically now. If your Master came to you and said that in order to be a part of His life you had to choose between Him and your child, what would your answer be?

If your answer is that you would choose your Master, then that would be a decision that I as a mother could not comprehend no matter how long we debated.

If your answer is you would choose your daughter then does that not make you a slave with limits?

You know it wouldn't happen but if he put that cup in your hand, would you really drink the Drano?

These are the types of issues that give me pause when I hear things like "No Limits". From the time I was born I had a set of morals and values instilled in me. I have, over time, come to own those values and morals as my own. They are what makes me who I am. To turn my back on them to satisfy another would be being untrue to myself. Then who would I be but a liar of the worst form?

I am currently taking care of my mother who has been very, very ill. It has kept me from being in Sir's home with Him. I have an obligation here to fulfill. My mother nurtured me and cared for me when I needed her. She now needs me and I am here. It is the cycle of life. But wouldn't some consider that me imposing a limit?

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to RiotGirl)

RE: NO Limits Subs and Slaves - 3/7/2005 6:16:50 PM

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quote:

I bet the answer would have been different if you'd asked her if she would rape/mutilate/permanently harm her own child at her owner's behest.

Gosh SherriA, I would certainly hope the answer would be different.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to NoPinkBalloons)

RE: NO Limits Subs and Slaves - 3/7/2005 6:17:55 PM

nella

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As always Merc & beth come whit good points. Just wanted to say that. By the way, i have it on my to do list to email Y/you but i have not gotten around to it yet. You gave me good advice. But back to the tread.

There is two things involved here. The two pepole i trust most in this world, my fiance and my mother. I would have stood still and let them place a knife at my troat, full trusting and not fearing. Becouse i knew they would not hurt me. I know they care deeply for me. This is trusting.

But if i was to say to my fiance that is also my Dom that he could do whatever he wanted whit me, whatever, kill me, maim me, take away my life passion. That would be somthing else. Offcourse if i did so it would in a way not be real becouse i knew he would never hurt me, so i could say it as much as i want. But if it was a real thing, if i truly said to somone i will do anything you want, i have no limits, that would not be trust, that would be hope they would not harm me, and what i would be saying is not, i trust you, no what i would be saying is, i am yours, my life is yours.

And that is not aboute trust, it is aboute control.

(in reply to Leonidas)

RE: NO Limits Subs and Slaves - 3/7/2005 6:43:01 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
Being a practicing agnostic atheist it's difficult to admit, but the Bible has a perfect example of this level of trust in a relationship. Remember the story of Abraham? He was told by this "all loving and merciful" god to sacrifice his only son as a test of his faith. If you remember the story, Abraham's son was born to his wife Ruth after it was long thought she was infertile. In fact, Abraham had a whole other "Poly" family with Ruth's handmaiden, but that's subject of a different thread. As we all know, at the last minute, god held back Abraham's hand. (Guess that would have been a good example of that old thread about "Mind-Fucks" huh?)

Are you an "inferior sub/slave" because you can't give the same without prejudice statement that emerald did? NO! you could if you wanted, because you know your Master accepts his responsibility and commitment in taking care of you. your position, emerald's, beth's and others secure in their relationships can say the same exact thing. Turn the question around to the Master's and you may get a different response.

Merc sir,

Ruth begged the hand of her Kinsmans Redeemer, Boaz.
Abraham's wife was sarah, a barren woman until age 99.
If i am not mistaken, Abrahams test was of obedience, not faith.

does not tis thread dovetail into the strong submissives thread????

In my opinion, a woman/girl, man/boy claims no limits for their very own reasons and until they are confronted with the "actual" of what their words really mean, actions speak louder than words.

dark~angel said:
The strength of who a submissive/slave really is is dependent on themselves, not on someone else.
Would I do anything that my Master wishes, without thought?
Yes.
Does that make me limitless?
No.
Being a non limits sub is not about whether one submits to their Owner without question, its whether a person has just that, no limits.

....but she also said
A strong submissive?
Or a person who knows their own limits?
A strong submissive?
Or a person who knows their own worth, be they owned or on their own?
A strong submissive?
Or a person who knows their desires and understands the service they can offer?
A strong submissive?
Or a person who understands that what they do, how they act and what they say isn't just a reflection on them, but reflects more about the person who Owns them.
Strength isn't about what a person does to test a person, about the control taken, about how playful a sub/slave/kajira can be.
The strength comes from knowing oneself.

i put these together and it is of my opinion that a submissive/slave if knowing her own worth and strength will carefully and thoughtfully use the words "no limits."

shy

_____________________________

i speak only my personal opinion, sometimes O/ours.

"i am the keeper of fragile things and i have kept what is indisolvable."
....the greatest gift.....vulnerability

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

RE: NO Limits Subs and Slaves - 3/7/2005 6:49:06 PM

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quote:

Ruth begged the hand of her Kinsmans Redeemer, Boaz. Abraham's wife was sarah, a barren woman until age 99. If i am not mistaken, Abrahams test was of obedience, not faith.

shy,
Thank you for the correction. Should have checked my Bible before trying to do it by memory.

(in reply to slavedesires)

RE: NO Limits Subs and Slaves - 3/8/2005 5:49:06 AM

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quote:

Should have checked my Bible before trying to do it by memory.

Don't feel so bad, I didn't catch it either. Bet those nuns would have pulled my ear off or something for a slip that big!

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

RE: NO Limits Subs and Slaves - 3/8/2005 7:36:12 AM

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There are really two aspects to this "no limits" thing - and those two aspects are in direct contradiction to each other.

The first aspect, that of people who are looking for partners and claim to have no limits, is the easiest to deal with. Like MrThorns, I'll find their limits - I've got this chainsaw scene I've been wanting to do for *years*. Mostly, they're self-promoting in fantasyland.

The other aspect is tougher, because it's hard to understand before you've lived there. It *is* possible to achieve, but it takes one helluva lot of trust. I've achieved that twice, and hope to achieve it again - but it takes relationship, and it's not a sudden thing.

With my first slave, it took years to get there - but we were starting at french vanilla - occasional kinky sex. Hell, it took years to achieve 24/7 - and her one negotiated limit was her kids, and that limit remained after all other limits had been dropped.

With my second slave, he'd seen me in the community for years before we started negotiating, and the negotiations ran about 9 months before I collared him - so he felt safe enough with me to start there.

Imagine, if you will, the ability to give up all decision-making rights to someone else - the leap of faith that requires, the absolute trust that this would require, the security of knowing that somone else will lead you where they will, and somehow make it all come out alright. That'd be a helluva rush, if that's the direction in which you're bent.

Now imagine the feeling of having that level of control over another's life - that much power over them, that much responsibility.

You have been in just such a relationship - we all have. It's worked out well, or poorly, but we've all been there. The urge to return to that is pretty easy to understand, isn't it? Because, when we get right down to it, we have all been in a place where another's decisions ruled our lives, and they had the responsibility to make it all come out okay. We called them "parents" - some were good at it, some weren't, but we were all raised in that power dynamic, and when we recreate it in our adult relationships, it's comfortable - if we want it recreated.

Some few want what we call 24/7 TPE - most don't. For those who want it, it's not a fantasy - it can be realized. I may never get the chance to go back there myself, but if the opportunity presents itself, I'll be pleased to take advantage of it.

_____________________________

Power corrupts. Absolute power ... is really pretty nifty.

TIES - pansexual BDSM social group in MN, USA - http://www.ties-bdsm.org

(in reply to mistoferin)

RE: NO Limits Subs and Slaves - 3/8/2005 7:44:11 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

profiles subs and slaves declaring they have "NO LIMITS

erin,
Don't you see, it's part of the role they want to play? With emphasis on play. Put it in the same context as "Caged", or even "Naked / Collar & Cuffs"

I always wonder WTF when I see this in a profile; "I want to love a Mistress who loves to own her slave and keep him naked in collar and cuffs"??? Hah? Does anyone really live like this? I've stated before I love men, but no way do I want to see some guys' penii (lol) hanging out all day every day (even if I could have such a setup). I could be wrong, and I certainly haven't expanded my kinky thinking enough yet.

I wish I knew how to copy and paste Thorns' comment, I agree, and I don't even think I need 10 mins to find his limits.
In my experience, "No limits" means he has an interest in every fetish on the list, revealing itself ultimately as 100 ways you can "do me" Mistress. M

_____________________________

a.k.a. SexyBossyBBW
""Touching was, and still is, and will always be, the true revolution" Nikki Giovanni

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

RE: NO Limits Subs and Slaves - 3/8/2005 8:02:14 AM

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quote:

Imagine, if you will, the ability to give up all decision-making rights to someone else - the leap of faith that requires, the absolute trust that this would require, the security of knowing that somone else will lead you where they will, and somehow make it all come out alright.

Midnight Writer,

I do understand what you are saying but we are talking about two different extemes here. The way you have it quoted is absolutely understandable to me. I don't have to imagine it, I've lived it most of my life.
It is the other end of the spectrum that baffles me. I understand and have lived the life you describe in your quote. That does not mean that I would allow someone to mutilate or kill me. There is a moment right before the chainsaw enters your body. In that moment you say stop....you say this is crazy.....you say you are insane....you say if you come one centimeter closer I am going to shove that chainsaw up your ass. It doesn't matter what you say......but you say it....and you stop it because you have self respect. To say that you would stand there saying "Yes Master, if it pleases you!" and allow him to kill you is just plain insanity. It is not a leap of faith, it is not trust.

I understand those who say "I have no limits" when they really mean they trust their Master not to take them there and KNOW that He would not. I understand those who say they would risk life and limb to save their Master.

I can not understand those who say they "IF" their Master "DID DECIDE" to take them there....they would simply go along with it and die or be maimed to please Him. THAT is what some here have said. That is a far cry from devotion and trust.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to MidnightWriter)

RE: NO Limits Subs and Slaves - 3/8/2005 8:53:51 AM

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quote:

I can not understand those who say they "IF" their Master "DID DECIDE" to take them there....they would simply go along with it and die or be maimed to please Him. THAT is what some here have said.

erin,
this slave feels your pain!!!!
ahhhh, devotion!!!! mythical, you say?? unprovable??? FEH!!! think "kamikaze" or "jihad", it is much the same mindest, just as there are countless sheep who will follow the herd to slaughter, too.

kind of makes you wonder.....did Jim Jones' slave ask him what's with the kool-aid? probably not, cuz' then she wouldn't have been his slave.

(in reply to mistoferin)

RE: NO Limits Subs and Slaves - 3/8/2005 9:13:11 AM

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quote:

erin,
this slave feels your pain!!!!
ahhhh, devotion!!!! mythical, you say?? unprovable??? FEH!!! think "kamikaze" or "jihad", it is much the same mindest, just as there are countless sheep who will follow the herd to slaughter, too.

kind of makes you wonder.....did Jim Jones' slave ask him what's with the kool-aid? probably not, cuz' then she wouldn't have been his slave.

Beth,
The one difference I see between those examples and what we are talking about here is that all of the above mentioned have incorporated some degree of proven brainwashing techniques to gain compliance. In the instances we are discussing here we are talking about, at least I hope, consensual slavery.

But even in the examples that you mentioned, do you think that what those groups do is anything more than insanity? Did you think that all those people in Guyana were of sound mind? Those who went to follow the comet? In the case of Guyana, those who challenged the order and refused to drink the Kool Aid were shot. I know that when I heard of those events my reaction was that those people were nuts.....whether born that way or brainwashed to be so.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

RE: NO Limits Subs and Slaves - 3/8/2005 9:56:26 AM

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quote:

The one difference I see between those examples and what we are talking about here is that all of the above mentioned have incorporated some degree of proven brainwashing techniques to gain compliance.

erin,
first off, this slave is right there with you, sister-friend, a common thread to those references is the belief in a Supreme Authority that no amount of logic and reasoning and science can sway. Spiritualists will call it faith. The ones who are left to clean up and try to make sense of the mess see them as martyrs, nuts or both. as a person with certain spiritual values, it is hard for this slave to condone religion in any form, much less one that has its members going about disfiguring, maiming and killing it's members and/or innocent people. Crazy? Well, that's subjective as hell, but getting carried away with a religion or doctrine of some sort that will eventually lead to your death or dismemberment does sound more than a little off, doesn't it?
Even the bright and articulate can be brainwashed, fooled, conned, stalked....and even crazy. We have no knowledge as to the amount of brainwashing(could be labelled as "training")that any of posters here have had or are attempting....at the hand of someone who truly doesn't have their best interests at heart, or does so in the name of religion, or whatever name they want to put on it.....their own special brand of dominance and submission that involves whatever shocking or flowery element they want to tag onto the "i would even ____________(fill in the blank) for you" part of the negotiation or the getting to know each other process. It reads most curiously like an even more sadistic Anne Rice novel, romance novel or an abnormal psych student's thesis.....yeah, well, that brand isn't the one that will be bought and put on the shelf in this household because Master isn't buying it.

Does this slave profess that she would be permanently handicapped or die at Master's request? NO WAY. this slave would be happy to accept the punishment for disobeying THAT order! LOL! theoretical BDSM is something we discussed in the beginning stages of our relationship as well as whether He is a religious fanatic, mass murderer or sociopathic sadist and came to the conclusion that He is not, so no worries that He would make such a ridiculous request.

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 3/8/2005 9:58:14 AM >

(in reply to mistoferin)

RE: NO Limits Subs and Slaves - 3/8/2005 10:29:50 AM

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quote:

It reads most curiously like an even more sadistic Anne Rice novel, romance novel or an abnormal psych student's thesis.....

I could not agree with you more. I would have to think that I am not in the minority when I say that people who make such statements are viewed by others as either having a very active fantasy life or are certifiably crazy. It either takes away their credibility or causes those within hearing distance great concern for their mental stability. It certainly does not have the effect of making me stand in awe of their deep dedication and devotion. If that is what dedication and devotion are about then I think I'd prefer to be superficial. It's just one leap this girl can not make.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to Mercnbeth)

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