RE: NO Limits Subs and Slaves (Full Version)

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EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: NO Limits Subs and Slaves (3/8/2005 11:19:02 AM)

I'm left sitting here surprised and realizing that, from what people saying they must be thinking one or more of these things about me:

1) I have an over active fantasy life

2) I am certifiably crazy

3) I am trying to prove something about my devotion or the depth of my relationship.

I would be surprised because that isn't at all how I've intended any of my responses to come across, it's certainly not how I feel about myself, and have tried to be very careful to stick the concepts of motivation, rather than judgement of personality in this conversation.

Can I get some feedback here?



mistoferin -> RE: NO Limits Subs and Slaves (3/8/2005 12:14:45 PM)

quote:

I would be surprised because that isn't at all how I've intended any of my responses to come across, it's certainly not how I feel about myself, and have tried to be very careful to stick the concepts of motivation, rather than judgement of personality in this conversation.

Can I get some feedback here?


EmeraldSlave,
Let me begin by first saying that I am not attempting to judge your personality or make any other kind of value judgement personally about you. I was not referring to you specifically in that comment, although it does appear by your responses that you are within the group that baffles me so. I can not tell you what you do is wrong or that how you feel is wrong or that even your motivations are wrong. I can simply say that no matter how hard I try, the concept is one that is unfathomable and clearly wrong for me.

Judging by the responses here I am not entirely alone in my way of thinking and I do believe that at face value that is how those statements are taken by at least a portion of the population. It is a concept that I simply can not understand. I can not comprehend the notion of an entirely limitless human being as I think that we all draw the line somewhere.

My reason for this post was not to call people out or to try to force anyone to change their way of thinking. I posted because I truly do not understand the mindset of someone like yourself. I was trying to dig deeper to see if no limits means exactly that....or if no limits means "I don't need limits because I have trust".

I meant you no offense and I am very sorry if any was taken. If it matters at all, I have come to realize a good amount of respect for you in reading your contributions to these forums. It seems though that on this issue at least, we are on opposite ends of the spectrum.



EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: NO Limits Subs and Slaves (3/8/2005 12:48:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin
I can not comprehend the notion of an entirely limitless human being as I think that we all draw the line somewhere.

I concur. I think you are confusing two things here:

1) The concept of having no limits (this is a state I believe cannot exist, and morally should not exist)

2) The concept of having radically different limits (this is the state I probably exist in compared to most)

Heck, to most people being given away to someone they've never met before in their life ro provide service and use to is a limit. For me it's something I accept rather easily and usually welcome. That doesn't mean I have NO limits, it means they are very different.

quote:

I was trying to dig deeper to see if no limits means exactly that....or if no limits means "I don't need limits because I have trust".

In my case it means neither, as I've stated previously in this thread, I accepted the Owner's limits.

quote:


I meant you no offense and I am very sorry if any was taken. If it matters at all, I have come to realize a good amount of respect for you in reading your contributions to these forums. It seems though that on this issue at least, we are on opposite ends of the spectrum.


You'd have to work hard to offend me. :)

Perhaps this would help- what exactly does your signature line mean to you? "There are no victims here, only volunteers." Maybe in taking that thought with you, it will help you understand where I am.



nella -> RE: NO Limits Subs and Slaves (3/8/2005 3:55:57 PM)

Just like somone might be totaly devoted to a couse or another i do belive it possibel to be totaly devoted to a person, we all have somthing we are devoted to. I have my passion aboute the occult, would i put my life at risk if i could realy gain somthing in that deparment, yes, whitout a second thoth. Now most pepole would say that to be wrong. But they would if asked say they would die for their ofspring. If your Dom and you slavery is your passion, and you are willing to die for Him, i see nothing wrong whit it.



GrandpaLash -> RE: NO Limits Subs and Slaves (3/8/2005 4:21:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

Beth,
The one difference I see between those examples and what we are talking about here is that all of the above mentioned have incorporated some degree of proven brainwashing techniques to gain compliance. In the instances we are discussing here we are talking about, at least I hope, consensual slavery.



Well I would have considered that my 24/7 M/s relationship IS consensual brainwashing, in which my slave is complicit in her reprogramming. But such a state needs the trust that can only develop through time into a relationship where 'no safeword, no limits' becomes a possibility.

Grandpa Lash



MidnightWriter -> RE: NO Limits Subs and Slaves (3/8/2005 6:29:50 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mistoferin

It is the other end of the spectrum that baffles me. I understand and have lived the life you describe in your quote. That does not mean that I would allow someone to mutilate or kill me. There is a moment right before the chainsaw enters your body. In that moment you say stop....you say this is crazy.....you say you are insane....you say if you come one centimeter closer I am going to shove that chainsaw up your ass. It doesn't matter what you say......but you say it....and you stop it because you have self respect. To say that you would stand there saying "Yes Master, if it pleases you!" and allow him to kill you is just plain insanity. It is not a leap of faith, it is not trust.

I understand those who say "I have no limits" when they really mean they trust their Master not to take them there and KNOW that He would not. I understand those who say they would risk life and limb to save their Master.

I can not understand those who say they "IF" their Master "DID DECIDE" to take them there....they would simply go along with it and die or be maimed to please Him. THAT is what some here have said. That is a far cry from devotion and trust.


mist - no, it's not a far cry at all. They say it, some of them mean it - I know this to be true, because I have lived there.

It's a level of trust and committment that is, by intent, without bounds. They do not make such a committment to someone they do not trust implicitly - but once made, the committment is there, and they intend to live up to it, come what may.

A few years back, at the Knights of Leather's Tournament (weekend-long event, highly recommended if you're in range of central MN), I was there with my two slaves. There was another slave there, largely being in service - and doing a damned fine job, but missing out on the painplay I knew she loved. Her owner was busy with other things, and simply didn't have time to reward her efforts. I had a chat with her owner, and was given her leash for an hour that afternoon.

I told her I wanted a blow job, and without hesitation, she asked where this would take place. I then explained the treat for her - while she'd be giving the blowjob to my boy, I'd be working on her ass with a singletail. I instructed my boy to risk the clench of her teeth while providing her a firm grip - he'd have to be standing solidly to give her something to brace herself against. The scene proceeded, with a small crowd gathering to watch.

The look on his face when the blacksnake bit into his chest was priceless - he'd simply not seen this coming. I alternated between his chest and her ass for a time, then surprised the whole room by tagging his cheek - maybe 1-1/2" from his eye.

You could see the thought processes run across his face - scary as hell, exciting as hell - was it intentional, or had MW missed that badly? Okay - it must have been intentional. What should I do about it? It took him almost 3 seconds to work his way through that progression - which is a long time, sometimes.

He turned the other cheek. I tagged that one, too.

If there had been any negotiation for this, if he'd not been in my service - would he have volunteered to have his face single-tailed? Not bloody likely. Could he have safeworded out of that second strike? Well, the option was certainly available - event safewords were in the rules. But he couldn't - he'd committed himself to whatever I'd ask, whenever I asked it. That afternoon, he proved to both of us just how committed he was. Neither of us had doubted it, but it'd never been put to such a test before that.

Was he terrified? Certainly - that was apparent to everyone. Was it his to refuse? Not any more it wasn't.

You may never want to be in such a relationship - and Ghu knows, it certainly is not to everyone's taste. You may never be able to understand the mindset of someone who will sign their entire lives into someone else's hands, willingly - but you should know that they are out there, that they really mean it, and that it's not just a kinky fantasy. They're damned rare - but it happens.

It's entirely all right if this isn't your kink - if that's not something you'd want for yourself. But it's not alright to claim that is does not happen, and it is rude of you to call it insanity.

Myself, I'll never understand the urge to watersports or scat play - I've never heard an explanation that I could understand, and I've no urge to go there and find out for myself. I will not, however, sink to insulting those who do have that urge, just because I don't share it.

I tell you true - it is devotion, it is trust.



NoPinkBalloons -> RE: NO Limits Subs and Slaves (3/8/2005 10:19:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MidnightWriter


If there had been any negotiation for this, if he'd not been in my service - would he have volunteered to have his face single-tailed? Not bloody likely. Could he have safeworded out of that second strike? Well, the option was certainly available - event safewords were in the rules. But he couldn't - he'd committed himself to whatever I'd ask, whenever I asked it.


To me, that would have looked like confidence in your skill level more than anything else. And it seems to be on an entirely different level than how *I* see people who profess to have no limits. I always come back to "would you harm your own child just because your master ordered you to?" If the answer is no, then you (generic you) do indeed have at least one limit that I can see.



mistoferin -> RE: NO Limits Subs and Slaves (3/8/2005 10:52:47 PM)

quote:

You may never be able to understand the mindset of someone who will sign their entire lives into someone else's hands, willingly - but you should know that they are out there, that they really mean it, and that it's not just a kinky fantasy. They're damned rare - but it happens.


Well, I for one, am damned glad they are rare.....if we are talking about the same thing, and I don't think we are. I am talking DEATH and you are telling me a story of someone who didn't safeword out of a singletail session. I don't think those two things are exactly on the same street.



EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: NO Limits Subs and Slaves (3/9/2005 5:37:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MidnightWriter
You could see the thought processes run across his face - scary as hell, exciting as hell - was it intentional, or had MW missed that badly? Okay - it must have been intentional. What should I do about it? It took him almost 3 seconds to work his way through that progression - which is a long time, sometimes.


Last fall at BR the Owner was singletailing me and hit my cheek on accident. I knew it was an accident because I could feel how it had fallen. I wasn't really worried and it had hurt a lot less than his other hits! However, HE was very upset about it even though I reassured him nothing was wrong and he told me that at that level of play you can't afford little mistakes like that. This made sense to me.

I agree that it's not quite the same as being told to die, but the reality that saying "no" is not something that would occur to me with the Owner is the same in both situations.

Granted this is with the Owner, I'm expected when playing with others to stop things if they are getting out of control or I feel I'm in actual danger with as much grace and good feelings as possible. Different story altogether there.



RiotGirl -> RE: NO Limits Subs and Slaves (3/9/2005 2:37:20 PM)

Access denied. Not allowed to have personal information to throw in my face at a later time.



nella -> RE: NO Limits Subs and Slaves (3/9/2005 2:52:31 PM)

No limits, mean no limits, but then if you are a smal woman, and he is a big man and have you tied up, it is always a trust issuse, for if he want to, he can hurt yoy limits or no.



BarrieJohn -> RE: NO Limits Subs and Slaves (3/11/2005 6:18:42 PM)

I am currently seeking a "no limits" slave. Any time I receive email from someone interested in discussing a relationship with me, I go over that which is expected from me with that person. I develop a feel for their limits. They learn to trust that I would not do them harm.


John
[email protected]



mistoferin -> RE: NO Limits Subs and Slaves (3/11/2005 6:27:51 PM)

quote:

I go over that which is expected from me with that person. I develop a feel for their limits.


Welcome to the boards! Glad to have your input. I must ask though, if in that process of getting to know them you get a feel for their limits.....then how would they be a "NO" limits slave?



darkinshadows -> RE: NO Limits Subs and Slaves (3/12/2005 5:00:31 AM)

quote:

If Master DID put that "cup" in my hand. Or did tell me i had to leave my daughter. It would tell me several things. One, he has no respect for me or my daughter, two he doesnt really love me and three i mean absolutely nothing to him.


Just out of curiosity and a need to learn. This isn't just directed at Riot... but to all subs/slaves kajiras... I am just using the statement as a focal point (hope thats ok Riot).

What if giving up the child is in your best interests, but you can't see it? What if, you have a mental illness... or a child is suffering, but your love and need for the child is blinding you. Would not the Dominants instruction be wise and important? Would He not be doing something in the best interests of everyone?

Everyone seems to be basing their thoughts on the 'perfect parent' scenario... but we don't live in an ideal world.

Just a thought.



mistoferin -> RE: NO Limits Subs and Slaves (3/12/2005 5:26:44 AM)

quote:

What if giving up the child is in your best interests, but you can't see it? What if, you have a mental illness... or a child is suffering, but your love and need for the child is blinding you. Would not the Dominants instruction be wise and important? Would He not be doing something in the best interests of everyone?


Well it has been in my experience working with various social service agencies that the situations you describe are extremely rare, thank goodness. Generally, a family can be saved with help and counseling and does not need to be disrupted in such a way that a parent "gives up" a child permanently. However, I do not think that it would be a Dominant's decision alone. Even if He truly saw the issues you describe above, I would still hope that before He would expect his submissive to do something so life changing, He would have that backed up by professional opinion and diagnosis.




darkinshadows -> RE: NO Limits Subs and Slaves (3/12/2005 5:49:08 AM)

i agree...

But my question is... (sorry I didnt make myself clear)

What if He has that. What if He can see it... gets medical opinions... has that backing, but the sub/slave/kajira doesnt see it that way?

From a personal point of view, I have a friend who is mentally unstable. Her husband did everything in His power to help her. (It was a D/s relationship of 11 years) She had been diagnoised as manic depressive. She became suicidal. It came to the point where she could not cope. Her husband would lose His job, losing financial security for the children, because of the care he was giving... and asked for help. Master opened His house to them. I took the role as carer, because that was the only support He could get for her. Doctors and the mental health would do nothing to help, even though she had been placed in hospital months earlier, under a care order. Having cared for her, had them living with us, caring for her children as I did. Feeding them, bathing her, dressing her... living with her, I could see she was unable to cope. Yet to the outside world, she was coping fine. She had a wonderful way of portraying her personality as sane. Yet behind closed doors, she commited self harm, and hid in her room most days. And she never saw herself as mentally ill. Too this day, she still doesnt.
Because of her abilities to mianipulate 'outsiders', she still cares for the children, now they have divorced. They divorced because He felt it right for the children, even though He loved her. What do the courts decide? Well, like I say, she has them. When they visit, its her husband that cleans up the mess they are in emotionally. It is us that bare the brunt of their pain. I love her completely... to me, she is a sister and a friend... but also to me, the childrens needs outweigh everything else.

Just because a person is a mother, and to that, a mother who loves her children... doesn't mean its the 'right' thing to stay with her.

(Sorry if I waffled...)



ProtagonistLily -> RE: NO Limits Subs and Slaves (3/12/2005 6:05:43 AM)

quote:

Last fall at BR the Owner was singletailing me and hit my cheek on accident. I knew it was an accident because I could feel how it had fallen. I wasn't really worried and it had hurt a lot less than his other hits! However, HE was very upset about it even though I reassured him nothing was wrong and he told me that at that level of play you can't afford little mistakes like that. This made sense to me.

I agree that it's not quite the same as being told to die, but the reality that saying "no" is not something that would occur to me with the Owner is the same in both situations.

Granted this is with the Owner, I'm expected when playing with others to stop things if they are getting out of control or I feel I'm in actual danger with as much grace and good feelings as possible. Different story altogether there.


Ok, but as you are a self-proclaimed slave who doesn't do pain, how do you rationalize being singletailed? It's easy to call other people begging flogger whores because you feel above the fray because you hate pain, and of course that is your perrogotive. I'm just curious how you can say one thing, and clearly do the other.

There's a discrepancy in what you've been saying.

Lily



mistoferin -> RE: NO Limits Subs and Slaves (3/12/2005 6:08:38 AM)

quote:

the childrens needs outweigh everything else.


You have your answer right there I believe. The childs needs come first. However, this is not a decision that any one person is qualified to make. As I said before, there are avenues one goes through if they have strong feelings that a child is in danger. It is an issue for professionals to decide. We as individuals have the responsibility to take these types of issues to the appropriate authorities and continue to push if that is what we feel is in the best interest of the child involved.

We have wandered into territory that I never intended this post to go. I was not referring to the obvious exceptions of a case like your friends'. I posed the question to find out how far a sub/slave would go if requested by their Master. Not to rationalize out the "what if's" or other extenuating circumstances, based just upon the fact that there was a command. To me, someone who declares "no limits" would not be taking the time to rationalize if the outcome was always going to be whatever He said anyway.

But to answer your question directly, it does not matter if she sees it or not, the removal of a child from a parent is not a personal decision....it is a legal one that must be left to the courts.



darkinshadows -> RE: NO Limits Subs and Slaves (3/12/2005 6:46:43 AM)

legally... it maybe so.

But this is a question of Master/slave-sub-kajira relationship.
The real issue is:
Should a Master have the last word?

If a person claims to have no limits... and submits fully to someone, then the answer should be yes. Even with the question mentioned about children.

It's not about whether its right or wrong in anyones eyes except the Dominant.

Your question as it stands is a good one. But the problem I see with people who claim to be no limits is just that.... no limits means no limits. The is no inbetween in that statement. If you are a slave... then in becoming such, a slave has accepted that they have no limits. If you claim to be a slave... how can you be one, with limits?... How can you even be a slave if you are not owned? By semantic definition you are submissive in nature, but not a slave.

'My version of slave is different to your version of slave' Thats something constantly screamed out in response to definitions. 'My kinks not Your kink'.... 'to each their own.'

But you say tomato, I say tomatoe... however, its still a fruit.
An unripe banana looks like plantain, but it wouldn't be a good idea to eat one expecting the other.



DomPervNSadist -> RE: NO Limits Subs and Slaves (3/12/2005 12:03:26 PM)

Merc's thoughts echo My own very nicely. I refer to My slave as precious property. And although I enjoy hurting her I would never do anything to permanently damage her.

To be honest I think that from those seeking a Master the statement "no limits" is perhaps coming from inexact phrasing. Many I think mean "No hard limits", or they assume that since their limits are normal to them that E/everyone shares them.

I tend to agree with the asessments of S/some that "no limits" is either because the person is a novice, or they are using it as a come on.

For those that truly mean it, well I believe they have the right to decide their own limits or to not have any.

And I can understand loving one's Master so completely as to be willing to do anything for Him.

Honestly I think in some ways that is the M/s relationship taken to it's utmost and can be very beautiful.

The potential for problem comes when the Master is as caring for the slave as He should be, and does not make certain that He is using His property carefully and thoughtfully.

Anyway that's My buck o' nine. :-)



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