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So if a dominant was involved in a scene with breath pl... - 2/12/2007 9:21:54 PM   
SirDiscipliner69


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Status: offline 		So if a dominant was involved in a scene with breath play or noose play and the submissive "died" but was rescitated by a safety monitor or paramedic would the dominant be morally guilty of killing the submissive?


Ross
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RE: So if a dominant was involved in a scene with breat... - 2/14/2007 12:13:12 PM   
SirDiscipliner69


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirDiscipliner69

So if a dominant was involved in a scene with breath play or noose play and the submissive "died" but was rescitated by a safety monitor or paramedic would the dominant be morally guilty of killing the submissive?


Ross
Posted below is an essay on breath play that is excellent and shows WHY you would be held liable in both civil and criminal cases for the death or physical damage of the sub.
 http://www.members. aol.com/Oldrope/ breath.htm Ross
©º°¨¨°º©

(in reply to SirDiscipliner69)
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RE: So if a dominant was involved in a scene with breat... - 2/14/2007 12:38:49 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirDiscipliner69
So if a dominant was involved in a scene with breath play or noose play and the submissive "died" but was rescitated by a safety monitor or paramedic would the dominant be morally guilty of killing the submissive?

Morally guilty?  You mean should he feel guilt?  Something is either moral or immoral.

It depends on the circumstances.  He was involved in a serious situation, beyond that, we can't say whether he deliberately caused the death or was simply involved.

Should a mountain climber be considered morally guilty if their climbing partner dies?



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RE: So if a dominant was involved in a scene with breat... - 2/14/2007 1:19:39 PM   
ShiftedJewel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirDiscipliner69

So if a dominant was involved in a scene with breath play or noose play and the submissive "died" but was rescitated by a safety monitor or paramedic would the dominant be morally guilty of killing the submissive?


Ross


And everything was fine? No long term damage? If so then at the very least the dominant should consider trying something new... apparently they aren't very good at that. lol
 
Morally guilty.... yeah, I think so. To many "could have's" there. For me... that would always be in the back of my mind.. Definately, causing someone to stop breathing until the point that person was legally dead all for the sake of a scene.. morally wrong.
 
Jewel

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RE: So if a dominant was involved in a scene with breat... - 2/14/2007 1:42:35 PM   
topcat


Posts: 1675
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Tidewater, VA
Status: offline 		Ross-
 
I would supect the charge would come out more to the side of Reckless Endangerment, or possibly Depraved Indifferance as in most jurisdictions, someone has to be dead for there to be a murder... If the SIQ actually did die as a result of the incident, it would, at most, be Manslaughter.
 
While I agree that breathwork of any sort is high-risk, have you ever heard or experianced such a situtation? Is it something that you just wonder about?
 
Lawrence

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RE: So if a dominant was involved in a scene with breat... - 2/14/2007 2:59:22 PM   
StacyCat


Posts: 112
Joined: 1/11/2006
Status: offline 		Lets see, CPR has about a 5% survival rate.  So, yeah, if a Dom has a sub that passes out and the heart stops, its probably going to be murder.

Quoting from Wikipedia (because I am too lazy to go look up the sources):

"CPR effectiveness
Studies have shown the importance of immediate CPR followed by defibrillation within 3–5 minutes of sudden VF cardiac arrest improve survival. In cities such as Seattle where CPR training is widespread and defibrillation by EMS personnel follows quickly, the survival rate is about 30 percent. In cities such as New York City, without those advantages, the survival rate is only 1-2 percent. [12]
CPR is often severely misportrayed in movies and television as being highly effective in resuscitating a person who is not breathing and has no circulation. A 1996 study published in the New England Journal of Medicine showed that CPR success rates in television shows was 75%.[13]"

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RE: So if a dominant was involved in a scene with breat... - 2/14/2007 3:09:50 PM   
topcat


Posts: 1675
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From: Tidewater, VA
Status: offline 		Oops- too late to edit-
 
I am NOT a legal professional, and nothing I should mention on these boards should be constured as legal advice.
 
Dear Stacycat-
 
Yes, CPR is a pretty slim chance, but respirtory arrest is pretty recoverable, abd more likely to be the case in the sceneario above...
 
Stay warm,
Lawrence

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RE: So if a dominant was involved in a scene with breat... - 2/14/2007 3:18:05 PM   
mistressofpayne


Posts: 5
Joined: 12/19/2006
Status: offline 		Have read this with interest. In this country we now have new a CPR protoctol and the success rate has dramatically improved. I suggest you check out the latest stats. Either way both participants are consenting adults although you shouldn't play with fire because sooner or later you will get burned .

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RE: So if a dominant was involved in a scene with breat... - 2/14/2007 4:06:25 PM   
hisannabelle


Posts: 1992
Joined: 12/3/2006
From: Tallahassee, FL, USA
Status: offline 		if a submissive entered the situation knowing all the risks and knowing the capability of the dominant, then while i'm sure the state wouldn't look too favorably on it, i don't think they should be guilt-wracked, no (although they probably would be). if a consenting adult chooses to put their life in someone else's hands, with all possible information about a risky situation, KNOWING the risks of breath play, and something bad happens, then that doesn't necessarily make it the other person's fault.

(in reply to mistressofpayne)
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RE: So if a dominant was involved in a scene with breat... - 2/14/2007 6:39:44 PM   
StacyCat


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quote:

ORIGINAL: topcat

Yes, CPR is a pretty slim chance, but respirtory arrest is pretty recoverable, abd more likely to be the case in the sceneario above...


Yes, but cardiac arrest happens pretty quickly after respiratory arrest.  And, the things that cause people to stop breathing in the BDSM scene can cause death quicker than most people think.  Besides, the scenario stated "dead" and that usually means no heart beat to lay people.

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RE: So if a dominant was involved in a scene with breat... - 2/14/2007 8:01:40 PM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
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Status: offline 		Jay gets off on safety, it is his kink just like asking idiot questions is yours.


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RE: So if a dominant was involved in a scene with breat... - 2/14/2007 8:08:33 PM   
SCDommie


Posts: 176
Joined: 1/24/2007
Status: offline 		Let's ask the Prosecutor! 

Dear Mr. Prosecutor, I am a Dom and during a breath play scene I was administering, the sub died. Now what shall I do?While we watch you being  escorted to prison for murder. Honestly, sometimes I think we should be licenced to be Dom/mes.

SCD

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RE: So if a dominant was involved in a scene with breat... - 2/14/2007 8:12:15 PM   
MaryT


Posts: 553
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
Jay gets off on safety,


Yes, and I would guess he would see SirDiscipliner "Old Guard" 69 as someone to avoid.

quote:

it is his kink just like asking idiot questions is yours.


I am beginning to believe that the author of the opening post is incapable of seeing what is wrong with it.  Perhaps that's just as well. 

MaryT

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RE: So if a dominant was involved in a scene with breat... - 2/14/2007 9:35:43 PM   
Stephann


Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline 		It's a murky issue.

If I am playing tackle football for fun, and I kill a man tackling him (say, snapping his neck accidentally) legal liability isn't always clear.  We were engaging in a risky behavior, consensually, knowing the risks involved.

The likelyhood of successful prosecution in such circumstances usually has more to do with local community standards than actual law.  Oddly enough, laws tend to be reflections of local legal standards.  With this in mind, if I tackle a fellow football player, how am I not legally guilty of assault?

Stephan


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RE: So if a dominant was involved in a scene with breat... - 2/14/2007 11:30:40 PM   
SusanofO


Posts: 5672
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Status: offline 		Well - as the OP mentioned, practically speaking, it's not gonna matter - because if this did go to trial - you're gonna be convicted of attempted manslaughter (or possibly murder - or worse), and so, you can contemplate the "real answer" from behind prison bars.

I don't determine other people's morals for them, but will say that for me (or anyone I'd play with) the answer is that this IS, in fact, immoral. Taking risks this huge just smacks to me of a certain disdain for life in general, and I wouldn't particpate in actvitiy with anyone who had an attitude I consider that wanton towards human life. 

P.S. I have a question for you - how is this question asked in this thread even slightly jiving with the idea that one of a Dominant's primary responsibilities is to keep his submissive safe? 

- Susan 

< Message edited by SusanofO -- 2/14/2007 11:57:16 PM >

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(in reply to SirDiscipliner69)
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RE: So if a dominant was involved in a scene with breat... - 2/15/2007 5:38:07 AM   
SirDiscipliner69


Posts: 2607
Joined: 2/1/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MaryT

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
Jay gets off on safety,


Yes, and I would guess he would see SirDiscipliner "Old Guard" 69 as someone to avoid.

quote:

it is his kink just like asking idiot questions is yours.


I am beginning to believe that the author of the opening post is incapable of seeing what is wrong with it.  Perhaps that's just as well. 

MaryT



Don't know who you are or what your problem is but I would say by you following My post and saying something negative in each one you must be a very unhappy person.

At least I have a profile.

So sad you feel you need to lash out at others.

Sometimes peoples attacks are more like a tabloid

So, if you are going to get a tabloid, get the National Enquirer, because at least they have a horoscope. Why read personal attacks here when you can get a more professional job done and a horoscope with the National Enquirer?

Ross
©º°¨¨°º©

(in reply to MaryT)
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RE: So if a dominant was involved in a scene with breat... - 2/15/2007 6:24:16 AM   
Stephann


Posts: 4214
Joined: 12/27/2006
From: Portland, OR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SusanofO




P.S. I have a question for you - how is this question asked in this thread even slightly jiving with the idea that one of a Dominant's primary responsibilities is to keep his submissive safe? 

- Susan 


Hello Susan,

I'm not entirely sure that you were responding to me or not, but I'll take a stab at your statements.

Well - as the OP mentioned, practically speaking, it's not gonna matter - because if this did go to trial - you're gonna be convicted of attempted manslaughter (or possibly murder - or worse), and so, you can contemplate the "real answer" from behind prison bars.

The 'real answer' and the legal answers don't always match up.  The real answer is that if I can afford a top notch lawyer, it won't matter how wrong I 'really' was.  BDSM in the lifestyle is rife with these examples; if a person has a massive heart attack and dies during a scene, is the dominant legally responsible?  Criminally liable?  Even if she's only tickling him with a feather duster? 

I don't determine other people's morals for them, but will say that for me (or anyone I'd play with) the answer is that this IS, in fact, immoral. Taking risks this huge just smacks to me of a certain disdain for life in general, and I wouldn't particpate in actvitiy with anyone who had an attitude I consider that wanton towards human life. 

The issue doesn't revolve around taking risks.  We take a greater risk of accidental death when we climb behind the wheel of a care than we do engaging breath play.  I don't consider driving to be disdain for life, but the odds are that every single driver will be involved in at least one serious accident in the course of their life.  Why would you willingly engage in an activity that you -know- will eventually result in serious consequences?

Instead of pretending there are no risks in our activities, we assume responsibility for all of our actions, and their inherent risks.  If we spend the time and effort to learn the risks, we are better prepared to minimize them.  Defensive driving courses are a good example.  A CPR course and some extensive research into the effects of oxygen deprivation would be good ways to reduce the risks associated with breathplay. 

The fact is, many BDSM related activities carry some degree of risk.  The question isn't grounded in the morality of risk; the question is grounded in the consent to that risk.

P.S. I have a question for you - how is this question asked in this thread even slightly jiving with the idea that one of a Dominant's primary responsibilities is to keep his submissive safe? 

Not every top shares that idea.  Not every bottom wants them to.  We are not the BDSM police; people will do exactly what they wish to do in their homes, no matter how much we shake our fingers at them and say "don't."  Instead of railing about the morality of minors having sex, we do them a greater service ensuring they have access to education and condoms.  But that's a whole other ball of wax.

Take care,

Stephan

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Men: Find a Woman here

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RE: So if a dominant was involved in a scene with breat... - 2/15/2007 7:04:21 AM   
MaryT


Posts: 553
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirDiscipliner69

Don't know who you are or what your problem is but I would say by you following My post and saying something negative in each one you must be a very unhappy person.


Oh, lookie there, progress - a direct statement.  How refreshing.  I do not post on all the numerous threads that you start for no apparent reason.  If you really do not see what is wrong with your OP, that is probably a good thing.  If you sat down at a munch and repeated a few of the questions you've asked here in the last couple days, there would be red flags flying up all over the place.  Can't you see why?

Why do you need others to spell out morality for you?  Why do you always post question after question after question about a fictional "them" and respond to answers with more questions and weirdly passive statements instead of your own thoughts.  Has it occurred to you that you are strangely absent from your own posts?  Do you think that comes across as somehow appealing?

quote:

At least I have a profile.


Mine is shut down at my Dom's pleasure.  The best of luck with yours.

MaryT


< Message edited by MaryT -- 2/15/2007 7:05:53 AM >

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RE: So if a dominant was involved in a scene with breat... - 2/15/2007 7:06:08 AM   
OnyxGoddess


Posts: 242
Joined: 4/18/2005
Status: offline 		Out of curiosity....isn't there some set up "danger" warning signal established before play?  Like tapping out, moving a body part, a monitored reflexive action that would keep this sort of thing from happening?  Stuff like that might prevent any of these issues from occurring.  I remember an issue like this in ASK A MISTRESS about queening/breathplay. 

(in reply to Stephann)
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RE: So if a dominant was involved in a scene with breat... - 2/15/2007 7:26:36 AM   
KeirasSecret


Posts: 415
Joined: 8/17/2006
From: central NH
Status: offline 		I say it depends on why the Dominant couldn’t revive the submissive.

For example, if the submissive died because the Dominant wasn’t paying attention to what was going on, or because they didn’t know CPR; yes.

If it was an unforeseen incident, such as the submissive had a condition the Dominant did not know about, knew how to revive but it just didn’t work, then no.

Can you give an example?

Be well,

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If the truth hurts, change it!

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