RE: keep the pills away!!! (Full Version)

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stef -> RE: keep the pills away!!! (2/20/2007 12:53:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bludemonn

quote:

Dude, you seriously need a handful of valium.

hmmmmmmmmm yeah i think i must be bi-polar....

Perhaps even tri-polar.

~stef



MizSuz -> RE: keep the pills away!!! (2/20/2007 12:54:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bludemonn

You seem to have a serious problem, not a disorder a problem! YOu asked me a question il tell you!

If someone comes to me and has a problem, they are angry or they feel really really low THEN i can help them and i HAVE, it works! and let me tell you something...going to a doctor and shoving anti-depressants down your gob does NOT work, ever heard of placebo's? There are quite alot of sugar pills out there just for people who like to play on the 'im special im depressive', you aint the only one who has tried to kill themselves 'tried' being the operative word, this is in MANY cases sign that the person needs attention as if they wanted to be dead they would be! Stop trying to avoid the issue of what we are discussing, i never said NO ONE should be on meds but trust me for someone like you id never prescribe meds atall, you seemingly dont needs them! you DO however need your adjust your attitude to accomodate other peoples views and opinions, such a shame you arent from London (or are you) as id be on a bus to you right now with your dose of 'meds' eminating from my mouth! You say want things drawn for you dont you? you disregard anyones opinions on YOUR own special 'disorder' well it aint YOURS and this thread is actually meant to be of use to you not to get you in a huff cos you feel no one has the right to express an opinion about there own welfare, your comments only show me you suffere from selfishness and NO you cant get a med for that sorry!


Damned right I'm angry.  I'm fed up with watching people who take responsibility for their personal health in one way get hammered by condescending prigs who think that because they are naturopathic based they are by default better than.  I'm sick of boneheads who are quick to assume that people who take allopathic medications are lazy and stupid and haven't exhausted all options.  I'm sick of watching ignorant fools throw down stereotypes that were outdated 50 years ago as a means to hurt and/or put themself above people who don't see it their way.  I'm rising up against the erroneous assumptions of presumptuous twits who think, without knowing a thing about me, that they have my answers. 

If you think that most mental disorders are simply an exercise in attention getting behavior then I submit that your experience is very limited and that perhaps you should surround yourself with more people who have successfully navigated puberty.

If you have any interest at all in my personal experiences with alternative therapies, my experiences with managing bi polar disorder and my feelings about all forms of treatment you can get a significant amount of that information here:

http://www.collarchat.com/m.asp?m=717049&mpage=2&key=therapies

http://www.collarchat.com/m.asp?m=62727&mpage=4&key=polar

http://www.collarchat.com/m.asp?m=635178&mpage=2&key=polar


With all due respect, I wouldn't have someone who jumps to conclusions and proclaims to have the answer without knowing the background do a damned thing for me.  If, however, you feel that 'coming to see me' would 'set me straight' then do get on that bus and ride to upstate New York.  What?  Oh yeah, they don't have buses that come across the pond.  Perhaps you can save your tokens and buy a plane ticket.  Tell you what, you fly to NY and I'll get in my vehicle and come and get you - then we can discuss it.

As for my attitude, it's just the way I like it.  Pissing off the inferiors is lagniappe.



bludemonn -> RE: keep the pills away!!! (2/20/2007 12:57:10 PM)

...right.....but i still agree with the OP and its MY opinion no matter what YOU say can you understand that? Call me whatever you will, or whatever you havent already i dont care, i have a right to agree and based on what I know im not changing it, whos being narrow minded now?



cjenny -> RE: keep the pills away!!! (2/20/2007 1:02:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bludemonn

Honestly CJ the thread was NOT supposed to mean 'dont take meds atall' i think those who see it that way should try to learn to read in an objective and not subjective manner, yes i fully understand that chemistry and biology and alot to do with the outcome of these meds and its also a stated fact that until Modern Psychology was accepted amongst the very biased Scientific world meds were turning people into vegetables, there are/were a hell of alot of sanitoriums/psychiatric units where people were admited for mild issues only to be institutionalised solely BECAUSE of medication becasuse we just didnt know how to deal with matters of the mind, now we can do so much more without them, many psychologists will never tell you to take meds whereas a doctor or a psychiatrist will prescribe, im just saying there IS an alternative, if you are having terrible side effects from certain meds then dont just pick another one, why not seek counselling to get to the root cause?

Also yes i understand the imbalances of chemicals in the brain, i have them all the time, so does my neighbour and so does almost every person i know, yes i do things that scare me, yes i have had some deeply black urges before and i know i am not balanced, not saying you arent a more extreme case but there is a root cause and taking a med cannot change how you think can it?      


When a natural herb can cure Lupus, Fibromyalgia, Tempromandibular Joint Disorder, Insomnia, Arthritis, Sjogrens (sp again lol) Syndrome, Clinical Depression, Reynaulds Disease oops and almost forgot nearsightedness [8D] then I will gladly stop shelling out 1000 usd a month for medication.

Truly my mother didn't drop me on my head or ignore me while I was growing up. This isn't stuff that can 'be worked out in a warm fuzzy way'.

I have also used acupuncture, bio feedback. Meditation, yes St Johns Wort. CQ10, shark liver oil. On and on. Some help, but none fix.




bludemonn -> RE: keep the pills away!!! (2/20/2007 1:11:00 PM)

Well what do you think they use in most of the meds for arthritis, depression? Herbs, the only reason they are in different meds is because alot of herbal remedies are far too potent, they still use red and green oil in Sri Lanka for dealing with skin complaints and they drink Lime to flush the system out, i didnt say use herbs, i think you really ought to read what im writing before jumping to conclusions, based on my own experiences and knowing a few people who are on meds and have been for a while i can definately tell you that the meds are making it worse especially for depression, thats all im saying and if vertain people think that i have no right to talk about it cos im not 'one of them' i think they ought to find another thread, this thread was merely stating an opinion to which i subscribe.    



MizSuz -> RE: keep the pills away!!! (2/20/2007 1:11:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bludemonn

...right.....but i still agree with the OP and its MY opinion no matter what YOU say can you understand that? Call me whatever you will, or whatever you havent already i dont care, i have a right to agree and based on what I know im not changing it, whos being narrow minded now?


Ahhh, but you see here you say "this is my opinion" instead of going on about what others should do and what's good or bad for them.

I have no problem with personal opinion, I have a problem with blanket condescension about ANY form of treatment, allopathic or otherwise, that is directed from one person to another.

This is one situation in which the only 'opinion' one has a right to is an opinion about their own situation.  Anything else is just judgementalism and does more harm than good.

Further to your argument, I am often discouraged by people who go to see a doctor and come back with an RX but when you ask them what the diagnosis is, the prognosis, the reason for the medication, what the medication does, etc...they just say "the doc said I'm sick and should take this."  I can't imagine someone not really caring about their health any more than that, but they are out there.  It's not for me but I don't have the right to tell them they should better educate themself or they are just wrong.  Besides, judgement about this sort of thing does no one any good (and that's been my point all along).

I see a lot of people who are anti-allopathic throw out blanket statements under the guise of 'opinion' that are just lightly veiled condescension.  I also often see people who are pro-allopathic do the same thing.  I've seen a lot of the former on this thread, though, and I think the statements by the OP are no exception.



ModeratorEleven -> RE: keep the pills away!!! (2/20/2007 1:11:52 PM)

(generic warning)

Please feel free to voice your opinions on this matter without the personal insults attached.

Thank you.

XI



cjenny -> RE: keep the pills away!!! (2/20/2007 1:30:37 PM)

blu I am not discounting the natural way of healing. I am discounting the concept of natural being the only way.



bludemonn -> RE: keep the pills away!!! (2/20/2007 1:38:57 PM)

Dear MizSuz,

I was not arguing to begin with, this is opinion once again and EVERYONE is entitled to one no matter what you think, i have friends who are on meds and in my eyes there is nothing wrong with them, hell im worse than they could ever be but i dont see it the same way some people do, my best friend went to the docs aged 16 and came out being told to take several different meds, perhaps he was ill-advised perhaps not. I never ever said people shouldnt take meds and i dont profess to be a Doctor OR a clinical Psychiatrist but i am a firm a strong believer in the talking sciences of counselling and psychology, before they came to be so readily available simply problems were turned into bigger ones when all you were told was 'take these', i actually know a lady who went to see her doc when she was badly depressed due to a divorse and her teenage daughters raising hell, you know what he said to her? 'i could give you anti-depressants but i dont give them to people who have a brain!'    



bludemonn -> RE: keep the pills away!!! (2/20/2007 2:01:08 PM)

Interesting way to look at things CJ, never ever heard someone say they discount natural as the only way but its different, i agree with you that each individual make up is different and that said dosent it negate drugs as they are not person-specific? If i ever go the stage where my energy levels got me into serious trouble or my 'blue' moods were too unbarable i think i would definately look for ways to stabilise me but they would be cognitive rather than biological. My personal preference ofcourse.



cjenny -> RE: keep the pills away!!! (2/20/2007 2:08:39 PM)

What if it is not a cognitive problem? That is what I am struggling (apparently) to say.



bludemonn -> RE: keep the pills away!!! (2/20/2007 2:18:41 PM)

I've just read your suggested links MizSuz ......boy you have had a hard life! In truth i cannot comprehend what you have been through and im old enough to make the choice that i wouldnt go through it, its commendable that you have tried everything going for your ailments and i would very much like to hear alot more of how you have fought and killed your Demons as i have a deep interest in matters of the mind.

I didnt mean to come across as disdainfully ignorant, thsi is a subject i too feel strongly about. 



bludemonn -> RE: keep the pills away!!! (2/20/2007 2:25:35 PM)

As far as im aware only severe mental states such as catatonia for example cannot be treated by re-adjusting thought processes, i myself could be considered a sufferer from fits of rage where my body is red hot to the touch and i feel like i can run through walls, this isnt self-imposed and can/has caused consequences for me  BUT it can be negated by KNOWING i am hot and feeling aggressive and therefore i can adjust who i talk to, what i talk about and i can find my own balance, much like when i dont go outside for days sometimes weeks and am lethargic, i can alter this at will if and when i feel it is having a serious effect on me (which is does due to not eating), i dont know about you CJ but in my case i know my demons and my worst enemies, i cant stop them and never will but i know how to deal with them when they rear their ugly heads.   



cjenny -> RE: keep the pills away!!! (2/20/2007 2:33:45 PM)

[8D] I give up.

Post #17 gives my views on using 'alternative' medication.
Post #64 mentions a few of the alts that I have tried or currently use in conjunction with medication.

I feel like you aren't actually reading my words, that you just somehow see me saying pop pills.
Mood disorders can be an offshoot of medical disorders which aren't always helped with herbs. Therefore sometimes medication is vital.



bludemonn -> RE: keep the pills away!!! (2/20/2007 2:48:39 PM)

hey CJ i am reading what you are saying honest but like you said some mental disorders CAN be offshoots but not all and as you know diagnosing it is probably the hardest thing in the world to do for anyone. Besides i never said use herbs, herbs have amazing properties which make people feel so much better due to the effect that have with our body chemistry that much is tried and tested but as you said before we are all that of a different make up both biologically and mentally.



MizSuz -> RE: keep the pills away!!! (2/20/2007 3:04:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bludemonn

I've just read your suggested links MizSuz ......boy you have had a hard life! In truth i cannot comprehend what you have been through and im old enough to make the choice that i wouldnt go through it, its commendable that you have tried everything going for your ailments and i would very much like to hear alot more of how you have fought and killed your Demons as i have a deep interest in matters of the mind.

I didnt mean to come across as disdainfully ignorant, thsi is a subject i too feel strongly about. 


It is not my intention to badger those who feel strongly in opposition to my own position, although often it can be seen that way.  I think it would be helpful for everyone if we were better at communicating our preferences for ourselves without projecting it out on to other people.  Saying "it's my opinion that medications are a crutch" is not the same as saying "people who take medications need a crutch."  They are not the same statement.  One is a statement of opinion, the other is a statement of judgement about others.  Often when I see these posts I see judgement about others, usually from the lofty, on-high place of abstinance.  There seems to be this assumption that if someone takes medication it means they are 'less than' and I can't see how this attitude is any different from the plethora of other social stigmas that the mentally ill have always had to combat.  Remember when they used to put epileptics and diabetics in asylums?  We have come a long way, but we still have very far to go.  Yes, alternative therapies and the integration of those therapies with allopathic remedies often seems the way to cover all bases and the answer will often be somewhere in the middle for most of us.  But to throw out blanket statements that one form is better than the other is to invalidate the experiences of everyone who has come to another conclusion.  As you now have some smaller understanding, I've got a pretty good body of personal experience to draw from (although admittedly not all encompassing).  I know for a fact that there are many others on this board who also have similar stories and it's just inappropriate to minimize their efforts in managing their health.  Blanket statements tend to always be right in at least one way, and always be wrong in at least one way.

Then again perhaps I'm just sensitive.  I'll be the first to admit that my willingness to champion the other side of the opinion could get in the way of my objectivity.  I try not to let that be the case, but I'd be in denial if I couldn't own the possibility.

Thank you for taking the trouble to read those links and for posting your rebuttal for same.  The reason I've made them is to refute the notion that people who take meds are looking for a quick fix.  The truth is that meds are a far cry from a quick fix, often requiring significant difficulty and commitment to stay with long enough to get any benefit from.  I don't know anyone who has achieved success with medications that would say it was anything that remotely resembles 'the easy way.'  Usually it's quite the contrary.  As you said, you wouldn't have stayed with it and many don't (and that's ok too).  Some of us do and for some of us doing so saved our lives.

I don't especially think that my life has been any harder than anyone else's.  In fact I'm positive there are things in my life that have always been easier than the average person.  It's that whole balance thing again, I suppose.  I'm happy to share my experiences with people and I'm also happy to discuss any topic you like (that doesn't involve titillation) on the other side.

As for my demons, most of them were illusory (as is usually the case) and those that weren't I embraced and took my power back from.  They are part of who I am.  Some days they get the better of me, but then again I am human.  <smile>



lighthearted -> RE: keep the pills away!!! (2/20/2007 8:22:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: CandleInTheWind

My only issue with the various immunizations are those such as the chicken pox one...is that they do not know how ling that the immunity lasts...I would prefer that the kids come down with it ad have the natural immunity...allof the others have been around at least 2-3 generations and have been proven their life time effectiveness... red


you may want to do a little more research on that one before you decide...having the chicken pox as a child doesn't guarantee lifetime immunity, I have family members that had it as both children and adults.  and, as one who didn't catch it as a child and then got it as an adult, it's not pleasant.  I chose to go ahead and vaccinate on that one, however, I did find out that public schools in my state (CA) are making it a requirement now, as they will also a hepatitis vaccine (forgot which one)...



bludemonn -> RE: keep the pills away!!! (2/20/2007 10:37:53 PM)

Thanks for understanding where im coming from too MizSuz i too am a champion of my belief and i never blanket statement or judge even though its very easy to, if you took it that way im sorry but im really not that shallow, true im not the most sympathetic but that is my way, i cant mollycoddle people when it comes to psychological matters as i feel this dosent do them any good whatsoever if anything it makes them feel its ok to be unhappy when it isnt.

I'm old school when it comes to these issues, ive been through some difficult times and im still going through them although what is tough to me, as you said, may be easy to you but i wont admit to having a problem and if i do have one then like you il work it out on my own, if you rely on others then what happens when they are gone?

True I have never ever taken anti-depressants and so il shut my mouth when commenting on issues of drugs though this thread was something that i believe in as i seen people who i deem as 'fine' being told to medicate and they eventaully deteriorate and if not counselled properly they just snowball into worse forms of illness.

YES i believe in mental illness of which i have never suffered (thank fuck) but i do contest the diagnosis methods used in determining just what the person suffers from, im also of the persuasion that mind creates chemicals not chemicals creating the mind theory if you understand me (wont bore you any longer). I respect you for having your say and it was very informative, i shall be practicing Counselling by next year and will always be a firm advocater of non-medication where i know there is hope of another way out but i do agree when in cases of necessity there will be a place for certain chemical help.       



MizSuz -> RE: keep the pills away!!! (2/21/2007 6:10:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bludemonn

im also of the persuasion that mind creates chemicals not chemicals creating the mind theory if you understand me (wont bore you any longer). I respect you for having your say and it was very informative, i shall be practicing Counselling by next year and will always be a firm advocater of non-medication where i know there is hope of another way out but i do agree when in cases of necessity there will be a place for certain chemical help.      



I agree that  reprogramming ourselves can often allow us to recondition our responses and, to some degree, I agree that we can make an impact on our biological functions by reprogramming our thought processes.  I think of it as burning new neuropathways, sort of a slow version of what would happen if you were traumatized.  With enough practice you can reprogram your chemical response, to some degree.

The problem you are going to run into, particularly if you will be counselling, is that your attitude is quite condescending of people who do choose to medicate.  As a counselor you don't really have a right to an attitude about other people's medical treatment, in fact it could be damaging to someone whose self esteem is not yet strong enough to deal with being judged about their problems.  The good news is that you're going to get a lot more opportunity to see just how wrong you are about meds, and to some degree how right you are, too.

As many folks on this thread have tried to express to you - not all psychiatric disorders are simply behavioral, they are physiologically based.  So, while you may think that thought is the foundation for biochemistry there is significant empirical evidence to refute your belief.  Faith healers believe that god will heal them, too - and they'll end up just as dead as if they didn't have faith.  Tell me, would you recommend that a diabetic simply change their thought processes so that their body makes more insulin?  How about people with tumors, would you advise them to meditate and think positively?  It would be very irresponsible of you if you did.  Psychiatric disorders are no different.  Now, perhaps psychological disorders can be different, but medication is used to treat psychiatric disorders, not psychological ones, which is to say it treats physiological issues.  It's just simple truth that psychiatric disorders are usually accompanied by psychological problems.  How could it not be with all the stigma society puts on it???

I think that you probably have a lot to offer someone in a recovery process.  I think you also have the potential to do a great deal of harm.  My hope for you is that you learn whatever it is you need to learn quickly so that it minimizes your potential to hurt someone; and that you learn before you meet someone like me, who would tear your head off and shit in the hole if you had the gall to condescend to me in person about taking meds.



mixielicous -> RE: keep the pills away!!! (2/21/2007 9:12:28 AM)

ok, misssuz yet again, i will defend my opinion. which in no way was a blanket statemnt, i DID NOT SAY all people who take meds are doing it b/c theyre lazy etc, i said a lot of people who DONT NEED to will, and yes they do, for that quick fix, for that attention, and out of ignorance. AGAIN, if you will read post 11 and 18 [did you even read anything besides the OP?] you will see, this post is NOT directed towards everyone, not even most people if i must go so far to appease you. and please dont act like this is a personal attack on you, i dont even know you!!!!!


quote:

ORIGINAL: MizSuz


Do you have statistics and sources for the 'amount of people who unnecessarily turn to' meds? I'm curious to know where you get your information regarding the validity of other people's treatment regimens.


nope, just first hand observation and experience
quote:


What is an acceptable amount of 'alternative therapies' that should be tried before choosing to use meds? Do you have a list of the accepted procedures one should try and for how long? Who made the list and what are their qualifications?


lets start with just one, exercise. tea? meditation? it doesnt even have to be a remedy, ANYTHING to being you back to conscienceness is a good place to start, even if youre just tryin to decide wether or not to take meds/remedies in the first place

quote:


I am disappointed by blanket statements made about my disorder by people who haven't walked my path. My disappointment doesn't stop it from happening, though.


i would like to see this blanket statement, that says all people who turn to meds can do better without them. very intrested, please. and, which disorder of yours am i specifically attacking seeing as how in the OP there is nothing directly mentioned, just a reference to the thread i didnt want to steal. Are my own experiences and diagnosis's not good enough to stimulate an opinion? or is it because i am not as "sick" as you so i cant possibly understand what you are going through, and the turmoil you had to go through to come to this decision to become a medication martyr .

you took this as a personal attack when it was only meant to bring like minded alternative medicine minds together, congratulations. there was no blanket statement and you anger only undoes the work you are trying to achieve by painting yourself in the light you are trying to cast upon me.
i am sorry you were personally offended, and that my own diagnosed problems arent enough to open peoples eyes towards alt med. whatever.

bludmonn thanks for defendinig me when i wasnt here



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