RE: Death Penalty

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popeye1250 -> RE: Death Penalty (2/21/2007 12:02:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sinergy quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 We'd simply throw it overboard in many cases Glad to know that law enforcement professionals are professional enough to avoid breaking the Federal, State, and International laws against discharging toxic materials at sea... Wait, move along, nothing to see here. Actually, there is. To sit in judgement of people who are in jail as being Evil, while admitting the crimes one has committed, seems a tad hypocritical to me. Are you saying that what makes them evil is they got caught? As usual, this is just me and I could be wrong. Sinergy Sinergy, this was back in the 1980's and you could "pump and dump" if you were 50 miles out. (Pump bilge tanks and dump garbage) If we were in close to shore we'd put that stuff in a burn barell with gasoline and burn it or bag it and wait till we were out 50 miles. And of course we obeyed all laws. The CG Cutters I was on were mostly the larger ones (327', 378') that were "High Endurance Cutters" rated for high seas rescues and we could stay out at sea for a month or so so they were good for drug & migrant interdiction ops as we could patrol thousands of square miles of the Carribean for a few weeks. Nice to be homeported in Portland, Maine and pull Carribean drug& migrant patrol in Jan, Feb and come back with a nice tan in March. We were only limited by food and fuel. Those two ship types respectively would have a complement of 130 and 180 crew. We never bothered to concern ourselves with the fact that these drug smugglers were "human" at all just that they were trying to smuggle poisin into the country and we had a job to do. As for being "evil" you tell me if drug smugglers are evil.

Wulfchyld -> RE: Death Penalty (2/21/2007 12:06:26 PM)
Good decision Geeky. Your points are valid and with merit. However for this community your training creates a degree of separation that may as well be a light-year. You must understand that it is the "passionate untrained" that is the voting public and champions of reform. That does not diminish your own passion or vote, but your training precludes you from the passion that John Q. Public feels. Your personal, strong feelings on the subject are married to your training and you would do a far greater service to the topic by posting factual links to support your training rather than your feelings. I have sat across from a serial killer and he was most human. Given the opportunity I would have choked the life out of him regardless of the remorse he felt and the passionate feeling he had about his life. His life was just as powerful as the life of his victims. The ripples in their pond crossed oceans and people from around the world felt the pain and anguish of their loss. As monstrous as I saw him I was objective enough to see his ripples had the same amplitude. People around the world were feeling loss with his death sentence. I am happy he will have a slow rot on death row... a little to slow for my taste. However I was of the mind for a long time that the death penalty was not the answer. That his family did not deserve to suffer the loss as I have felt it for his victims. Then I was struck with a clue-by-four. The lead detective drove a thousand miles to talk to me and ensure his conviction. After the interview and I had tied up the loose ends that would ensure his conviction, the detective told me that he understood where I was coming from but had I considered the possibility of him escaping. Given less than the death penalty would allow him the luxury of killing other inmates, or escaping and killing others. That clue-by-four smacked me between the eyes and I no longer questioned the validity of the death penalty, just the validity in how that decision is reached. In this case he was without question guilty. All the "i's" were dotted and the "t's" were crossed. He was nailed nine ways to midnight and the judge should have just took him out back and shot him. Hell I would have given him the bullet to do it. Geeky, you are right to be passionate about how you feel. Just as I have refrained from the forum do to my personal experience, you should as well. Most of the posters here are up in arms about the faulty judicial system that will convict an innocent person. I am on the same bandwagon. However, like you I have experiences that preclude an objective opinion.

cjenny -> RE: Death Penalty (2/21/2007 12:07:20 PM)
I wonder why the whole breakdown of the mental health system ( in the USA ) hasn't been brought up as a contributor to some of those waiting for their sentence to be carried out. Please don't quote me on details, I am pulling from memory. Approximately 50 years ago many of our state mental institutions closed due to lack of funding, that shot up the number of homeless people. That in turn contributed to criminal behaviour, drug use et al. Many of the people in our prison system that have mental illness simply don't have another place to go. We have an enormous gap in our system & no easy answer. Personally I am for the death penalty. I don't believe that people ought to be 'put down' as a routine ending, there are flaws in that system as well. There are some acts so horrific that no amount of reparation (sp?) will help much less fix & yes I believe that there are many people that should not be a part of society. It is a tool. The problem [to me] comes in the way that the tool is used. I read something from somewhere years ago that has always stuck with me "A society is only as good as its prison system". Or something very similiar. I would be curious on the numbers.. are there more 'innocent's on death row or more 'innocent's in the general prison system. Yes it happens, again it is a flawed system that works as best it can. Supporting those groups that assist the innocent helps. Finding an alternative for those that are mentally incompetent would help even more. It isn't a black/white issue, as with anything involving humans there are a lot of variables.

thompsonx -> RE: Death Penalty (2/21/2007 12:09:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: popeye1250 quote: ORIGINAL: SusanofO I am counting on the fact that thes e incompetent and corrupt prosecutors, as well as guilty prisoners (or the guilty who are free at the expense of the innocent), are going to get their come-uppance in the next life. But that's a religious belief. I still think we need prisons, unfortunately. I must admit I wouldn't bat an eye if pension-defuaders got life in prison. I have a real hard time with some of the sentence differences for so-called "white collar" and "other" crimes (murder, rape, etc.) - Susan Susan, they were handing out some pretty stiff sentances in all those "Enron" type cases as well they should. Martha Stewart got off very easy for that insider trading stuff! She should have done 10 years for that! I always thought that there should be the standard of "beyond a reasonable doubt" but I see cases where there is nothing but doubt that still end up guilty! "He could have done it!" No shit, so could have 100,000 other people! Jurys should be better instructed on "reasonable doubt." If I were on a jury and it appeared that someone "may" have done something I'd vote "not guilty." It is up to the police and prosecutors to "prove" beyond any reasonable doubt that someone "did" something. If there's ANY doubt at all then the verdict should be "not guilty." As a juror I wouldn't be willing to put someone in jail or the gallows if I had any doubt about their guilt. It would have to be pretty much "iron clad." popeye1250: I reposted your statement in full because it bears repeating...I could not agree more. It is not often that we agree but here me and thee are in lock step Good on ya mate. thompson

bludemonn -> RE: Death Penalty (2/21/2007 12:11:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave It is amazing how many people convicted of murder claim innocence and there is never a shortage of people prepared to totally accept that claim. Having said that the possibility, not to say downright certainty of executing the innocent is the only argument I can see against the death penalty. Pretty powerful one too !!!! How many innocent 'Irish terrorists' would be dead now if Britain had the death penalty? I can't think of the number off the top of my head but I'd say at least between 10-15. I remember one retired judge saying about one campaign to free some 'terrorists', if we had the death penalty this wouldn't be a problem. That episode caused the rethink of the whole British criminal justice system and the introduction of the Crown Prosecution Service. The Service the police and many others complain about for not bringing charges against 'guilty' people. errrm please be careful what you say here, true the way in which the UK police processed these murderers, and they were murderers NOT terrorists, was at best questionable due to new testing systems introduced in order to question old ones also certain policemen not following procedure does NOT make them innocent. Tell me this, how many death sentences and atrocities did these 'innocent irish terrorists' commit under false propaganda such as 'free Ireland', many 'patriots' and 'irish americans' will tell you Ireland & England have had troubles for centuries but they wont tell you of the Irishmen who have fought alongside and died with the British in wars such as the Napoleonic wars, the first & second world wars. sorry going off the point here...my point is MANY were NOT innocent and how would you feel if you saw Al-Qeada members who were open about being Al-Qeada let out free, given welfare and then elected (sinn fein) into fucking parliment! We didnt rethink our judicial system we just realised you cannot fight propaganda when you are dealing with cowardly murderers such as the IRA.

Wulfchyld -> RE: Death Penalty (2/21/2007 12:11:29 PM)
What astonishes me is the incarceration over rehabilitation approach.

GeekyGirl -> RE: Death Penalty (2/21/2007 12:12:26 PM)
Thanks for the explanation and you make wonderful points. I know I said I was bowing out, but I am curious as to one more thing: Do you feel that geographical location makes a difference on these subjects? My opinions are very common here in the south and especially here in Texas, even among "John Q Public". I'm curious as to demographics. I'm reminded of that comedian from texas who said, "Other states are trying to abolish the death penalty..hell, my states putting in an express lane." Talking on the internet allows us to interact with people all over the world...sometimes we may believe our opinion is very common until we talk to people from a different geographical location. I find that Texas is very conservative about this issue and that I find my opinion to be in the majority here.I was actually shocked to find so many who disagreed with me.

thompsonx -> RE: Death Penalty (2/21/2007 12:22:07 PM)
GeekyGirl: The statistics show that over 70% of the people in jail/prison are there on drug related charges. This is not to say that there are not people who belong in prison forever and should be handled at the end of a 6' pole ie: the fictional character Hanibal Lecter. I also understand that as a corrections officer you must of necessity handle each one of your charges as if they were a threat to your personal safety. Your dismissive attitude of all convicted persons however is less than rational. thompson

Wulfchyld -> RE: Death Penalty (2/21/2007 12:28:00 PM)
Geeky I am going to give you an idea here that will make me a bad guy. But bear with. Many countries have corporal punishment, which is a hell of deterrent. Here in Okiville we still have Sheriffs that believe a good ol ass whoopen goes a long way with rehabilitation. I know for a fact that many of those victims of a good ol ass whoopen do not ever fuk up in that county again. They walk away with the hell beat out of them and a sparkling clean record. Most don't ever fuk up again, anywhere. America has commercialized prison so incarceration has become a corporate payday. I designed a prison that rehabilitates, pays for itself, and runs off of zero taxpayer dollars. Now those good ol boys in government looked it over, sat in awe of it, and done the greatest thing they ever could have done for me. They said it is brilliant, we understand how it works and it works beyond what anyone could ever dream... but... As you know that almost everything after but is bullshit... There is no way to divert funds from such a facility. I kind of scratched my head and said "what?" He said there is no way for politicians to get their hands in the kitty jar. You really don't think it cost $30k a year to house a prisoner do you? That is what made me understand it isn't about rehabilitation. It is incarceration for profit. So we could probably look at other countries with corporal punishment as an option but our bureaucracy won't ever let it happen. Now for the question of geography… people are predators. If you don’t believe me go to store that is having a really big shoe sale. You will see all the Buddhist vegans eating each other over a pair of pumps. Crime is 90% opportunity vs consequences. The more opportunities you have, i.e. available victims, in a given location, the less consequences, i.e. law enforcement, you have.

Devilslilsister -> RE: Death Penalty (2/21/2007 12:34:31 PM)
As much as i love the british, they havent a leg to stand on when it comes to be terrorist free and non murderers. (Not speaking of the public at large) In calling the irish terrorists criminals, there is a hypocrisy. Might as well call the United States government murderer's as well as the British.. as well as other countries. What constitutes unjust murder? Can any government power that prosecutes murderers claim to not be? The british has wiped out far more cultures then i wish to imagine. I dont agree with the IRA, but i do empathize. They arent "murderers" - they are at most terrorists. That the british created. You get what you give, ya know? Granted they're wrong, life isnt ruled by whose got the biggest sword anymore, and things should be done in a civilised manner. But still. When the Scots were fighting back for their country..... what were they called? When americans were fighting to be freed of the brits...... what were they called? If the Black Americans had employed the same tatics in fighting to remove themselves from slavery.......... i agree that its wrong, its bloody, and its a mess that should wrap up and end - but i've no right to sit in judgement.

GeekyGirl -> RE: Death Penalty (2/21/2007 12:35:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Wulfchyld Geeky I am going to give you an idea here that will make me a bad guy. But bear with. Many countries have corporal punishment, which is a hell of deterrent. Here in Okiville we still have Sheriffs that believe a good ol ass whoopen goes a long way with rehabilitation. I know for a fact that many of those victims of a good ol ass whoopen do not ever fuk up in that county again. They walk away with the hell beat out of them and a sparkling clean record. Most don't ever fuk up again, anywhere. America has commercialized prison so incarceration has become a corporate payday. I designed a prison that rehabilitates, pays for itself, and runs off of zero taxpayer dollars. Now those good ol boys in government looked it over, sat in awe of it, and done the greatest thing they ever could have done for me. They said it is brilliant, we understand how it works and it works beyond what anyone could ever dream... but... As you know that almost everything after but is bullshit... There is no way to divert funds from such a facility. I kind of scratched my head and said "what?" He said there is no way for politicians to get their hands in the kitty jar. You really don't think it cost $30k a year to house a prisoner do you? That is what made me understand it isn't about rehabilitation. It is incarceration for profit. So we could probably look at other countries with corporal punishment as an option but our bureaucracy won't ever let it happen. Now for the question of geography… people are predators. If you don’t believe me go to store that is having a really big shoe sale. You will see all the Buddhist vegans eating each other over a pair of pumps. Crime is 90% opportunity vs consequences. The more opportunities you have, i.e. available victims, in a given location, the less consequences, i.e. law enforcement, you have. I tend to agree about corporal punishment..it's like when I was a kid. My mom used to whoop my ass for stuff and I' d never do it again afterward! Might not work for everyone but it worked for me. As for the money situation, well hell...I guess it makes sense. No wonder the county commissioners got a 20% raise this year and I only got 5%.

popeye1250 -> RE: Death Penalty (2/21/2007 12:36:44 PM)
Yes, geography does affect it. Look at all the moonbats in Massachusetts! It's very difficult to carry a gun in that state. In neighboring New Hampshire it's easy to get a gun "permit" and they have twenty times less house breaks than down in Massachusetts. In N.H. they're even thinking of getting rid of any requirement for gun "permits" as they don't think a person should have to have a "permit" to excercise a right. You don't need a "permit" to vote. Two VERY different states right next door to each other! Many in Massachusetts think the criminal, "must have had a bad childhood." So what? People in N.H. are far more in favor of the death penalty than people in Massachusetts are.

bludemonn -> RE: Death Penalty (2/21/2007 12:48:00 PM)
Oh dear Devil, that is one of the silliest things i've heard 'you get back what you give' im not challenging you atall but again its a narrow minded view to see British History from a view of 'you wiped them all out' that is far from the truth, The British Empire i will admit was far from perfect but has given more to the world than any other former Sea power by way of trading, something that only the British, Spanish & Dutch were the very best at, in fact dominions such as Canada & Australia are not only thriving but stil operate on old British values, India and Hong Kong thrive as a direct result (NOT from ghandi) but from the British RaJ and the East India Company, trying to keep the peace between the Catholics and the protestants was fine before the IRA shit-stirrers and make no mistake they were racketeers more so than terrorists, decided to start indescriminantly blowing families to kingdom come, whether they were British OR Irish in the name of Ireland! True the British at war were not gentlemen but please dont say something as stupid as 'they wiped out populations and what goes around comes around', to this day the British are still the VERY best at diplomacy and crisis handling. watching films like braveheart and contless Irish films does NOT mean you know British or even English history, we have had bad bad kings before and they took more from their own then they did from the Jocks or the paddies TRUST me. The only thing i'm sad about is when we caught the murdering irish red-handed we should have employed the SAS shoot to kill policy, funny how the IRA didnt like playing the 'terrorism' game when the SAS went across the Irish-border, intercepted the 'terrorists', shot them in the back of the head and put them in shallow graves.

bludemonn -> RE: Death Penalty (2/21/2007 12:50:01 PM)
by the way sorry to go sorta off topic, im proud to be English and talking about those murdering irish bastards really really gets to me (ex Brit Army).

Wulfchyld -> RE: Death Penalty (2/21/2007 12:51:36 PM)
Hey blu, just a thought here... but wouldn't it make more sense for the English just to leave?

thompsonx -> RE: Death Penalty (2/21/2007 12:55:52 PM)
Wulfchyld: I thought the constitution made a pretty clear prohibition against corporal punishment in this country...but then as GWB has said "its just a goddamned piece of paper" thompson

bludemonn -> RE: Death Penalty (2/21/2007 12:56:09 PM)
Leave where? if you mean Ireland then yes i agree but i DARE you to go to Belfast and go up to an orangeman or some of the loyalists and say that, they are 100% pro Brit and there roots are steeped in Ireland, trust me mate you wouldnt make it out alive, its not the Brit Army whos the probs its the Loyalists who WILL not leave, they been there for centuries and they would rather fight, hence the Brit Army being there in the first place to STOP the bloodshed...anyways to get to the point id agree if there is conclusive evidence and the procedures are followed that someone is beyond questionable doubt guilty of a capital offence, yes they should go for the Death Pen..

Wulfchyld -> RE: Death Penalty (2/21/2007 12:58:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx Wulfchyld: I thought the constitution made a pretty clear prohibition against corporal punishment in this country...but then as GWB has said "its just a goddamned piece of paper" thompson Couldn't agree with ya more there thompson. You know he has been dying for the opportunity to use it for toilet paper.

popeye1250 -> RE: Death Penalty (2/21/2007 1:10:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: cjenny I wonder why the whole breakdown of the mental health system ( in the USA ) hasn't been brought up as a contributor to some of those waiting for their sentence to be carried out. Please don't quote me on details, I am pulling from memory. Approximately 50 years ago many of our state mental institutions closed due to lack of funding, that shot up the number of homeless people. That in turn contributed to criminal behaviour, drug use et al. Many of the people in our prison system that have mental illness simply don't have another place to go. We have an enormous gap in our system & no easy answer. Personally I am for the death penalty. I don't believe that people ought to be 'put down' as a routine ending, there are flaws in that system as well. There are some acts so horrific that no amount of reparation (sp?) will help much less fix & yes I believe that there are many people that should not be a part of society. It is a tool. The problem [to me] comes in the way that the tool is used. I read something from somewhere years ago that has always stuck with me "A society is only as good as its prison system". Or something very similiar. I would be curious on the numbers.. are there more 'innocent's on death row or more 'innocent's in the general prison system. Yes it happens, again it is a flawed system that works as best it can. Supporting those groups that assist the innocent helps. Finding an alternative for those that are mentally incompetent would help even more. It isn't a black/white issue, as with anything involving humans there are a lot of variables. Cjenny, I agree, the states never shouuld have closed the state hospitals for the mentally ill. Instead of having a roof over their heads and food to eat and medical care many of those people now end up out on the streets. And a lot of them get involved with drugs and get in trouble. Many of them are incapable of taking care of themselves. I think that is a misstake that needs to be reversed. People like that shouldn't just be left to fend for themselves.

DomKen -> RE: Death Penalty (2/21/2007 1:17:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: GeekyGirl Thanks for the explanation and you make wonderful points. I know I said I was bowing out, but I am curious as to one more thing: Do you feel that geographical location makes a difference on these subjects? My opinions are very common here in the south and especially here in Texas, even among "John Q Public". I'm curious as to demographics. I'm reminded of that comedian from texas who said, "Other states are trying to abolish the death penalty..hell, my states putting in an express lane." Talking on the internet allows us to interact with people all over the world...sometimes we may believe our opinion is very common until we talk to people from a different geographical location. I find that Texas is very conservative about this issue and that I find my opinion to be in the majority here.I was actually shocked to find so many who disagreed with me. Most of the rest of the country is, at least, uneasy with your criminal justice system. Passing laws to reduce inmate access to the appelate courts is a deeply troubling move in a state which still doesn't have professional public defenders in some places. Judges appointing drunk attorneys who sleep through murder cases is also a factor in the way the Texas death penalty system is viewed outside the state. The unseemly rush to execute is also troubling. If the prosecutors are so confident of the strength of their cases why fight having new evidence examined? Why struggle so hard to prevent new technology being used on evidence from existing cases? Shouldn't the prosecutors want to make absolutely certain that the person being executed really did the crime? While almost 10 years old this report from Amnesty International will give some insight into how others view Texas' prison system: http://web.amnesty.org/library/Index/ENGAMR510101998

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