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RE: how far to push patience - 3/5/2007 1:42:01 PM

FukinTroll

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Celeste43

quote:

ORIGINAL: FukinTroll

Wants are absolutely irrelevant. His/her wants are the tools you have to punish or indulge with. Your only concern is that his/her needs are met.

Sorry but I disagree. If her wants are never fulfilled, are denied as a matter of course, she will eventually give up on the relationship and look for something more fulfilling. And someone more compatible.

Let me paint it for ya.

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RE: how far to push patience - 3/5/2007 3:41:12 PM

azzmaster

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the OP sounds like they want to complain about something...but from my viewpoint it is the master who is the most patient, or he can't be firm...a sub who wants something needs 2 learn how to please enuff to get his or her reward. if dying inside is how the sub experieces submission they r not in the right lifestyle

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RE: how far to push patience - 3/6/2007 3:41:36 AM

HisSongstress

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quote:

ORIGINAL: azzmaster

the OP sounds like they want to complain about something...but from my viewpoint it is the master who is the most patient, or he can't be firm...a sub who wants something needs 2 learn how to please enuff to get his or her reward. if dying inside is how the sub experieces submission they r not in the right lifestyle

Really? This seems like a really cheap way to describe submission. I know azzmaster, that you often like to bring definitions down to the lowest common denominator, but I do nothing for a "reward." Those things that my Sir gives me, does to me, allows me to share and do with him are not rewards for good behavior. They are the activities that will best serve our relationship, serve my growth as a submissive and as a human being, serve his growth as a dominant and a human being, AND serve his pleasure.

He is patient with me (and teaches me to be patient) so that I learn the value of the activities....and to not view them simply as "rewards." I would hate to think that I "earn" an evening of intimacy with my Sir because, I said "Sir" a certain number of times, and averted my eyes properly, and kneeled just right. There has to be more to this lifestyle.

(Ah, but perhaps it is just semantics.....)

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RE: how far to push patience - 3/9/2007 8:47:26 PM

pattiann

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Celeste43

Sorry but I disagree. If her wants are never fulfilled, are denied as a matter of course, she will eventually give up on the relationship and look for something more fulfilling. And someone more compatible.

I absolutely agree with Celeste, but only in the circumstance where the relationship is new or in the exploring stages. Once collared, the sub/slave is reliant on the desires of their dominant.

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RE: how far to push patience - 3/15/2007 12:02:07 PM

ThreeReasons

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I don't wait...I just tell my dom what I want. There is no sense continuing in a d/s relationship if the dom/master is too egocentric to fulfill his subs wants and desires.

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RE: how far to push patience - 3/15/2007 12:41:24 PM

Llyren

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There are a few points to address here. First, I do understand the point of the OP. If you are constantly denied something you want desperately, having it dangled as a carrot in front of your nose from time to time, but never having it, it can cause you to shrivel inside. This has happened to me in the past, and while it's not something to be shared with the general public, I might discuss it privately.

Second of all, what's the point in being in -any- relationship if ones wants and needs aren't being met. Sometimes they do overlap, you know. Dominants wouldn't be happy with just dry bread, lukewarm water, and a beige room. Why should submissives? I don't like the implication that our lives should be less vibrant merely because we derive pleasure from serving. That isn't to mean that topping from the bottom is a good thing, and that every idle whim should be indulged. But flatly refusing to do something to give pleasure or happiness to a submissive as a matter of principle? No way.

Finally, regarding Padraig's comment on the person in debt. Sometimes, if you're lacking in emotional support, possessions become the source of mental and emotional stability. So in a way she was losing something, she was losing what she had been relying on to keep her centered. It wasn't a good source of stability, but it was what she had. Or perhaps I'm just trying to justify my own extensive dvd collection. *laughs*

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RE: how far to push patience - 3/15/2007 12:41:30 PM

Celeste43

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pattiann

quote:

ORIGINAL: Celeste43

Sorry but I disagree. If her wants are never fulfilled, are denied as a matter of course, she will eventually give up on the relationship and look for something more fulfilling. And someone more compatible.

I absolutely agree with Celeste, but only in the circumstance where the relationship is new or in the exploring stages. Once collared, the sub/slave is reliant on the desires of their dominant.

If this was true, then people in D/s relationships would never break up and we know that isn't how it goes. D/s relationships appear to have a higher break up rate than vanilla ones.

As far as Troll's clarification, I read it the first time and still disagree. If you're that uncaring and calculating that you only dole things out in order to get what you want, then I wouldn't want to be with you. I'm happy when I'm in a relationship with someone who likes to see me happy. So he doesn't decide when we're in the line at the grocery store that I can only have a candy bar if I do x for him in exchange. He'll say get the one with almonds instead and we'll split it. He does kind things spontaneously and without calculation. The way people in a loving relationship usually do.

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RE: how far to push patience - 3/15/2007 4:10:46 PM

charismagirrl

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i wish the OP would've been more forthcoming with what her wants are....If they are something that will make her shivel and die inside then they sound more like NEEDS....

i've heard the school of thought that slaves only need a safe place in which to live, food in the stomachs and those types of absolute needs BUT...

There are alot of other absolute NEEDS that humans have and something trivial, like some material trinket are not things that would make you shivel and die inside if you couldn't have them. You may be bummed out but not to the extent that the OP is speaking of.

There are the needs of human contact...intellectual stimulation, emotional needs (giving and receiving)...if these things are not taken care of one will certainly shrivel and die inside as surely as if they didn't have food or water.

If the OP is speaking of these types of things and her Master/Owner/Other is calling those things wants and denying her then she should only be as patient as she can without actually allowing herself to die inside.

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RE: how far to push patience - 3/15/2007 6:36:06 PM

Devilslilsister

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quote:

Wants are absolutely irrelevant. His/her wants are the tools you have to punish or indulge with. Your only concern is that his/her needs are met.

i think it depends on the want. I have a want to experience a scene with my Master for over 2 and 1/2 years that doesnt involve pain.. but something along the lines of sensual stuff. i could probably wait another 5 years before it ever happens and waiting wont do a diddly thing to me.

i also have other wants like being able to speak to him, knowing whats going on, having time with him, interacting with him (ect) and if those wants arent met - then the patience is shorter and the spiraling starts.

Like i said - it all depends on the want.

< Message edited by Devilslilsister -- 3/15/2007 6:39:30 PM >

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RE: how far to push patience - 3/15/2007 6:52:32 PM

BRNaughtyAngel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Llyren
I don't like the implication that our lives should be less vibrant merely because we derive pleasure from serving. That isn't to mean that topping from the bottom is a good thing, and that every idle whim should be indulged. But flatly refusing to do something to give pleasure or happiness to a submissive as a matter of principle? No way.

Thank you Llyren! I am floored sometimes at the notion that we're supposed to just "need" food, water, air and shelter in a M/s relationship. Hell if that was all it took, I could just go commit a crime and get thrown in jail. They provide those basics and I could theoretically get my warm fuzzies from doing inmate laundry and getting the shit beat outta me by other inmates.

I'm sure there are some femsubs who could be seriously high maintenance if allowed to be, but for those of us whose "wants" are simple pleasures that help make/keep us happy as a person and within our relationship, why on earth would those be denied "just because they can"?

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RE: how far to push patience - 3/15/2007 7:23:41 PM

andreaC

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Master doesnt have to push that far for my patience because i dont have any

But I have pushed his patience very far and i can tell you, he is a very very very patient Master

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RE: how far to push patience - 3/15/2007 7:34:24 PM

BRNaughtyAngel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Devilslilsister

i also have other wants like being able to speak to him, knowing whats going on, having time with him, interacting with him (ect) and if those wants arent met - then the patience is shorter and the spiraling starts.

Like i said - it all depends on the want.

DLS, I personally consider things of this nature to be needs, simply because they fulfill an emotional need for me. I have a lot to give and happily do so, but if my emotional needs tank doesn't get refilled, I'm left running on empty with nothing left to give. And like you, my patience runs thin and I start the downward spiral.

This is an ongoing issue for me within our relationship.

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RE: how far to push patience - 3/15/2007 8:36:58 PM

FukinTroll

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http://www.collarchat.com/m_893298/mpage_2/tm.htm Post 23.

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RE: how far to push patience - 3/16/2007 5:40:54 AM

Devilslilsister

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quote:

DLS, I personally consider things of this nature to be needs, simply because they fulfill an emotional need for me. I have a lot to give and happily do so, but if my emotional needs tank doesn't get refilled, I'm left running on empty with nothing left to give. And like you, my patience runs thin and I start the downward spiral.

This is an ongoing issue for me within our relationship.

Well you saw how i split up the two wants. There are important wants and not so important wants. I call them wants, because i can live alone on an island and find fullfillment. There are other ways to find emotional fullfillment. So, i want his input on my emotional fullfillment, but i dont need it. Yet its an important want.

i understand the ongoing issue. Like i said, i can find emotional fullfillment through me now. Doing so, starts to create a little island around me........ one in which Master has realised he does not want. So now Master takes steps to prevent it by fullfilling those wants. i dunno, i think there is nothing harder to deal with then a girl who wants/needs you 24/7 and all of a sudden could careless if she speaks to you.

Fill your emotional needs else where and your problem will be solved. No matter how your Master deals with it. If you think about it.... if its an issue.. it must be what he wants.

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RE: how far to push patience - 3/16/2007 5:48:45 AM

Devilslilsister

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FukinTroll

http://www.collarchat.com/m_893298/mpage_2/tm.htm Post 23.

Troll, i dont know if you are serious or joking........ but i suspect serious? The "needs" you have listed are merely wants. And in reality, if you dont fullfill her wants - yours wont be fullfilled either. A relationship is about fullfilling wants (needs should already be met)

If you deny a want long enough, you might end up creating a sub who thinks it is not your want to give it. Creating the consequence of her fullfilling her own want.......... else where.

P.S. your wants are no more important then anyone elses. They are not elevated higher to needs because you are a dom.

< Message edited by Devilslilsister -- 3/16/2007 5:50:48 AM >

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RE: how far to push patience - 3/16/2007 6:59:19 AM

FukinTroll

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Devilslilsister

Troll, i dont know if you are serious or joking........ but i suspect serious? The "needs" you have listed are merely wants. And in reality, if you dont fullfill her wants - yours wont be fullfilled either. A relationship is about fullfilling wants (needs should already be met)

If you deny a want long enough, you might end up creating a sub who thinks it is not your want to give it. Creating the consequence of her fullfilling her own want.......... else where.

P.S. your wants are no more important then anyone elses. They are not elevated higher to needs because you are a dom.

You are presuming my list is optional.

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RE: how far to push patience - 3/16/2007 7:26:36 AM

rascallymisty

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Llyren and Celeste43, You both stated my thoughts better than I could have. My thoughts ring true to both of yours. Thankful the Dom I have been talking with thinks along these lines as well.

~ misty ~

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RE: how far to push patience - 3/16/2007 7:46:24 AM

FukinTroll

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Celeste43

As far as Troll's clarification, I read it the first time and still disagree. If you're that uncaring and calculating that you only dole things out in order to get what you want, then I wouldn't want to be with you. I'm happy when I'm in a relationship with someone who likes to see me happy. So he doesn't decide when we're in the line at the grocery store that I can only have a candy bar if I do x for him in exchange. He'll say get the one with almonds instead and we'll split it. He does kind things spontaneously and without calculation. The way people in a loving relationship usually do.

Let me try and put this in Trollese. "I have been an unruly bitch all week but since we are at the grocery store I am going to get a candy bar because I want it. If I don't get it I quit!"

Now it makes sense. I need to change my whole perspective now. What exactly is the word for a bottom that appears to be on the top?

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RE: how far to push patience - 3/16/2007 8:21:50 AM

SirDominic

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rollin, I infer from your post that your Master is denying you have wants and needs. Or at least giving them very little importance. Does he know what your wants and needs are? For that matter, do YOU?

Communication is all important. If you are not getting what you want and need from the relationship, you should ask to talk to your Master about this. Not only what your wants and needs are, but how important they are. A very strong want should be given more weight than a trifling need, for example.

It cannot be repeated enough, subs and slaves are not doormats (unless they make a conscious decision that is what they will be in their relationship). You have a right to talk to your Master about the things that are important to you.

If he is the kind of Master who believes your needs should be taken care of, but your wants are unimportant, you have to decide if you can be happy and grow into your submission under those circumstances. If not, you have to face the possibility that you are not with the right Master.

Namaste, Sir Dominic

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RE: how far to push patience - 3/16/2007 8:47:23 AM

BRNaughtyAngel

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FT, reading your post in the other thread, as I understand it, you list her "wants" as corresponding with your "needs". What I'm not understanding is how, for instance, cuddling is a need for you, but a want for her? What if it's a need for her?

I'm just confused by a lot of the statements that dominants make in regards to the needs/wants debate. You mentioned a sub being an unruly bitch all week then desiring to have a "want" fulfilled or they call it quits. I guess I can't relate to that mentality because I'm never an unruly bitch. I have bad days just like anyone, but that's usually when I seek solitude for a bit. That's just me though.

My confusion comes into the big scheme of the relationship as a whole, rather than individual incidents, although individual incidents contribute to the big scheme. You get what you give. If one side of the equation is always giving and hardly ever getting, or has to beg to get, just because it's a dom's prerogative to withhold or make it difficult or whatever.. it just seems to me that it could lead to a lot of frustration and/or resentment from their sub/slave.

I don't know...... maybe I'm not explaining my thoughts very well.