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Get rid of "Don't ask, don't tell" military p... - 3/14/2007 10:20:15 AM   
somethndif


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I thought some of you who are opposed to discrimination against gays might be interested in this video available on Youtube opposing the U.S. policy of "don't ask, don't tell," which has resulted in thousands of otherwise qualified service members being separated from the service because of their sexual orientation.  It is quite well done.

And for those to whom it matters, I did 3 years regular Army, honorable discharge, and I am straight, not gay.  I just don't like senseless discrimination.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQDP0_Y3UmU

Dan
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RE: Get rid of "Don't ask, don't tell" milita... - 3/14/2007 1:47:42 PM   
LotusSong


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No.. I'm in favor of keeping it.
 
A solider should join to protect a nation.. not look for a date.
 
Hets and gays alike should refrain from making  their sexual orientation an issue.

< Message edited by LotusSong -- 3/14/2007 1:54:50 PM >


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RE: Get rid of "Don't ask, don't tell" milita... - 3/14/2007 2:42:26 PM   
thetammyjo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

No.. I'm in favor of keeping it.

A solider should join to protect a nation.. not look for a date.

Hets and gays alike should refrain from making their sexual orientation an issue.


So should het soldiers who admit they are het then be kicked out of the army too?

That is all a gay or lesbian military person has to do -- let it be known, not do anything at all.

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RE: Get rid of "Don't ask, don't tell" milita... - 3/14/2007 4:24:23 PM   
somethndif


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

No.. I'm in favor of keeping it.
 
A solider should join to protect a nation.. not look for a date.
 
Hets and gays alike should refrain from making  their sexual orientation an issue.


There is no more reason to think that gays join the military to find dates, than there is to think women join the military to find dates. 

Gays do not make their sexual orientation an issue, the military does.  If a soldier admits to being gay or lesbian, or engages in homosexual behavior -- at any time, even off base and when not on duty -- he or she is subject to being thrown out of the military.  It makes no sense, and it is blatantly discriminatory.


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RE: Get rid of "Don't ask, don't tell" milita... - 3/14/2007 4:30:45 PM   
paulthesub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

No.. I'm in favor of keeping it.

A solider should join to protect a nation.. not look for a date.

Hets and gays alike should refrain from making their sexual orientation an issue.


So should het soldiers who admit they are het then be kicked out of the army too?

That is all a gay or lesbian military person has to do -- let it be known, not do anything at all.


Punish the action, not the person.

If gay soldiers are being kicked out of the military because the higher ups are afraid they will "look for dates" then heterosexual soldiers should also be kicked out if they get caught "looking for dates". The point is they shouldn't discriminate against people simply because of their sexual orientation.

(Note: "looking for dates" can be substituted for whatever sexual activity you deem necessary to make it inappropriate for military personnel)

< Message edited by paulthesub -- 3/14/2007 4:31:45 PM >


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RE: Get rid of "Don't ask, don't tell" milita... - 3/14/2007 4:48:02 PM   
soultoshare


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OK, forgive the length of this, but I don't know how to attach a link......this is from an editorial I found in the chicago Trib.....
it's something to chew on for a bit.

Lotus, no disrepect for your opinions, but the statement you made about joinging the military to get dates is really close-minded.  I had friends in the Service that were gay, and I worked literally elbow to elbow with them, and while we in the unit knew their sexual orientation, no one, and I mean NO ONE ever turned them in, or refused to work with them based on it.  I would have followed them into war and not even thought twice about it.  What goes on behind closed doors is no one's business.  And for the record, I too am straight, did my time in the service, and not once was this ever an issue for me.

OK, here it is....
Don't ask' rule's serious tradeoffs
Steve Chapman
March 4, 2007
Thanks to the growing demands of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, the U.S. military has had increasing trouble finding and keeping recruits. So it's had to lower its standards. How much? Since 2003, the number of convicted felons allowed to join has nearly doubled--to 1,605 last year. The military has also welcomed nearly 44,000 enlistees convicted of serious misdemeanors. Going from an orange jumpsuit to desert camo must be a refreshing change.

But the Pentagon hasn't eliminated its standards entirely. You still can't serve your country if you have a thing for people of your own sex. And if you are secretly gay, you can be kicked out if your sexual orientation becomes known. Since 1993, more than 11,000 troops have been discharged under President Bill Clinton's "don't ask, don't tell" policy. If you were in the Army, would you rather bunk next to a homosexual or an ex-con?

This policy is now under scrutiny in Congress, with Rep. Martin Meehan (D-Mass.) sponsoring a bill to lift the restriction. It's an important issue that unfortunately is used as a proxy for broader goals. Liberals favor eliminating the ban on gay soldiers because they reject all discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation. Conservatives favor the ban as part of their general opposition to gay rights. Both tend to ignore the question of whether don't-ask-don't-tell helps or hinders the performance of the military.

As a general matter, it is hard to justify enshrining discrimination against a group of people just because some individuals dislike them. We don't ban gays and lesbians from working as civil servants, government contractors, police officers, nurses or anything else.

But the military is different from normal jobs. One reason is that it serves the most critical function of government--protecting the citizenry against enemy attack. Another is that it sometimes obligates people to live together in close quarters with minimal privacy around the clock. And you can't just up and quit if you get sick of the people you work with.

There has always been one plausible argument against letting homosexuals serve openly: that if heterosexuals feel deeply uncomfortable in close proximity to gays, the tension will compromise military effectiveness. The armed forces are not the place for experiments in social engineering. If the demands of safeguarding the nation conflict with principles of equality, then principles of equality may have to take a back seat.

But if liberals are often indifferent to practical issues, conservatives sometimes refuse to let facts get in the way of ideology. The argument that gays destroy cohesion and discipline can be evaluated on the basis of evidence. And there is considerable information to suggest that though it may have been true at one time, it's not anymore.

A recent Harris poll indicates that most Americans now think homosexuals should be allowed to serve without staying in the closet, with 55 percent in favor and only 32 percent opposed. Among those who are ages 18 to 30--the chief recruiting pool--64 percent endorse that approach.

Of active-duty personnel, according to a Military Times poll, only 30 percent support accepting avowed gays. But even in the military, attitudes are malleable. Retired Army Gen. John Shalikashvili, former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, once supported don't-ask-don't-tell but has publicly changed his mind.

A Zogby poll found that three-quarters of those service personnel who had served in Afghanistan or Iraq are comfortable around homosexuals. Twenty-three percent of these troops say they know for certain that one of their colleagues is gay--and two-thirds of this group say it doesn't hurt morale.

All this suggests that integrating openly gay people would be no harder than it was putting blacks or women into units that were segregated by race and sex. Gays are already serving ably in the ranks. And it's hard to see how junking don't-ask-don't-tell would cause much disruption. Nearly half of the veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan know or suspect they have gay colleagues--yet they apparently manage to dress, shower and work around them without getting the vapors.

Many of those soldiers evicted under the existing policy have vital skills that are hard to replace, such as fluency in Arabic or Farsi. At the same time the military is discharging gays, it is compelled to embrace ex-cons. That's the weird tradeoff we've chosen with don't-ask-don't-tell.

If the policy were only detrimental to gays, it might be justified. But right now, it looks like a policy billed as preserving military
effectiveness that actually does just the opposite.

Personally, I'd prefer my gay friends and colleagues next to me than some felon.





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RE: Get rid of "Don't ask, don't tell" milita... - 3/15/2007 8:50:11 AM   
LotusSong


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and WHY would they need to "let it be known"?  Do they need special accommodations? Special clothing?  Special food?
 
What you are should have no bearing on what you do.  I dunno.. I don't think the enemy is going to care WHO is shooting them. "Excuse me sir, I just thought you'd like to know, I'm gay" 



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RE: Get rid of "Don't ask, don't tell" milita... - 3/15/2007 8:54:37 AM   
LotusSong


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quote:

ORIGINAL: somethndif

Gays do not make their sexual orientation an issue, the military does.  If a soldier admits to being gay or lesbian, or engages in homosexual behavior -- at any time, even off base and when not on duty -- he or she is subject to being thrown out of the military.  It makes no sense, and it is blatantly discriminatory.



When is this question asked?  It seems to me if they agree to not ask the serviceman.. he doesn't have to make it an issue.
 


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RE: Get rid of "Don't ask, don't tell" milita... - 3/15/2007 9:05:21 AM   
LotusSong


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" the looking for dates"... was a passing example of what a reason could be for making an issue out of one's sexuality.  So don't loose any sleep over it.
 
I see no reason why the don't ask, don't tell premise is offensive.  The ONLY way one would know then is if the person was "caught with their pants down".. and that would be wrong for either sexuality-  do they come to fuck or fight? my questions is: WHY DO WE NEED TO KNOW?
 
They ask one religion so they know how to bury you.  They ask blood type so they know what to transfuse if needed.  Make sense?  and they need to know your sexuality for......?


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RE: Get rid of "Don't ask, don't tell" milita... - 3/15/2007 11:07:01 AM   
thetammyjo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

" the looking for dates"... was a passing example of what a reason could be for making an issue out of one's sexuality. So don't loose any sleep over it.

I see no reason why the don't ask, don't tell premise is offensive. The ONLY way one would know then is if the person was "caught with their pants down".. and that would be wrong for either sexuality- do they come to fuck or fight? my questions is: WHY DO WE NEED TO KNOW?

They ask one religion so they know how to bury you. They ask blood type so they know what to transfuse if needed. Make sense? and they need to know your sexuality for......?




Exactly.

But the fact is, from the people I know who have been in the military, that heterosexuality is discussed and displayed all the time. From jokes to questions about what you did during leave to pictures you carry to the fact that the military addresses the issues of safe sex meaning sex between men and women (or local women).

That someone is het is commonly discussed and displayed. So why shouldn't that be punished as much as displaying or discussing other sexualities?



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Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

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And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

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RE: Get rid of "Don't ask, don't tell" milita... - 3/15/2007 11:18:06 AM   
LotusSong


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

Exactly.

But the fact is, from the people I know who have been in the military, that heterosexuality is discussed and displayed all the time. From jokes to questions about what you did during leave to pictures you carry to the fact that the military addresses the issues of safe sex meaning sex between men and women (or local women).

That someone is het is commonly discussed and displayed. So why shouldn't that be punished as much as displaying or discussing other sexualities?




Basically,.. I think it's the "boys will be boys"mentality. Men love to brag.
 
I recall the reason they didn't want women in combat was that they feared that the men would be distracted by/or reflexively protect a woman in combat instead of being focused on the battle at hand.(or some such attitude).  And all the noise the women made about Tailhook didn't change a thing..Maybe on the outside..but I'm sure the resentment still thrives.  Life isn't fair.. it just is.  I fight my own battles.  Only we canbe our own best examples.

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RE: Get rid of "Don't ask, don't tell" milita... - 3/15/2007 12:19:55 PM   
SimplyMichael


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The British know that gays have been in and serve quite well.  The Trojans in the current release 300 fucked boys all the time and they didn't seem to be any worse for it.

The British policy is "don't be an asshole" meaning, whatever your orientation, if you cause trouble, you are out, if you don't, who the fuck cares what you put into what hole.

You are either a good soldier or you are not and that is the ONLY thing you should be being judged on.  Lotus, how would you feel if they threw anyone out who wansn't vanilla?

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RE: Get rid of "Don't ask, don't tell" milita... - 3/15/2007 10:08:55 PM   
clover


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

and WHY would they need to "let it be known"?  Do they need special accommodations? Special clothing?  Special food?
 
What you are should have no bearing on what you do.  I dunno.. I don't think the enemy is going to care WHO is shooting them. "Excuse me sir, I just thought you'd like to know, I'm gay" 

It's not as easy as you seem to think to keep it from being known. If you think that it takes an "official" coming-out speech to inform someone that you're gay, then think about how often heterosexual men and women divulge their orientation (even to people they barely know) every single day without even thinking about it.
For example, a coworker asks a straight woman on a Monday about her weekend, and she might respond, "My husband and I went to that new restaurant across town..."
Or a woman could be waiting in line to get movie tickets and holding hands with her boyfriend when someone either of them knows from work just happens to be in the same line and notices them.
There are a thousand little questions, pronouns, situations that lend themselves to "coming out" without anyone needing to shout it out on a mountaintop.

(in reply to LotusSong)
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RE: Get rid of "Don't ask, don't tell" milita... - 3/15/2007 10:20:10 PM   
clover


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong
" the looking for dates"... was a passing example of what a reason could be for making an issue out of one's sexuality.  So don't loose any sleep over it.
 
I see no reason why the don't ask, don't tell premise is offensive.  The ONLY way one would know then is if the person was "caught with their pants down".. and that would be wrong for either sexuality-  do they come to fuck or fight? my questions is: WHY DO WE NEED TO KNOW?

Most unmarried people in the military date, and many are married and live on base. Yet, the gay soldier isn't allowed to have his or her partner live on base. They have to find off base housing and hope that if they have any kids together that they don't end up in the same pre-school as someone else they know. Even a parent-teacher conference would be an opportunity to be "found out".

If they ARE found out, they just might get kicked out of the military (a dishonorable discharge, to boot) and lose their entire career and the pension that would have come after retirement.

And if they are sent to fight for their country and die in the process? Unlike their heterosexual counterparts, there are no benefits for their widow/ers. I doubt there is even any recognition.

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RE: Get rid of "Don't ask, don't tell" milita... - 3/16/2007 5:55:40 AM   
Vendaval


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December 29, 2006

"Meehan to push for repeal of gay soldier ban"

"Since the ban on gays serving openly was implemented a decade ago, more than 11,000 men and women have been dismissed under "don’t ask, don’t tell," according to the Government Accountability Office. A study conducted last year for the SLDN showed that the U.S. military could attract as many as 41,000 new recruits if gays and lesbians in the military were able to be open about their sexual orientation."

http://www.advocate.com/news_detail_ektid40713.asp

(Editted for formatting)
 

< Message edited by Vendaval -- 3/16/2007 5:56:28 AM >


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RE: Get rid of "Don't ask, don't tell" milita... - 3/16/2007 7:06:20 AM   
puella


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There were some DC Rumors that Bill Clinton was going to own up that his approval of that policy was a big mistake on his part... stay tuned I guess.

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RE: Get rid of "Don't ask, don't tell" milita... - 3/16/2007 9:11:42 AM   
LotusSong


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

The British know that gays have been in and serve quite well.  The Trojans in the current release 300 fucked boys all the time and they didn't seem to be any worse for it.

The British policy is "don't be an asshole" meaning, whatever your orientation, if you cause trouble, you are out, if you don't, who the fuck cares what you put into what hole.

You are either a good soldier or you are not and that is the ONLY thing you should be being judged on. 

 
It's their game.. I either play by their rules if I want to be involved.. or not.  I'd be damned to fight on behalf of anyone/country didn't accept me I am.
 
quote:

You are either a good soldier or you are not and that is the ONLY thing you should be being judged on.
  My sentiments exactly.

 
Did you know that Rome actually outlawed homosexuality because it was so prevalent the population was decreasing?  I saw that on the history of Rome one night. (just a tidbit that has nothing to do with this topic other than Michael's mention of Rome that brought it to mind)
 
Now.. under what circumstances would they find "being gay" detrimental?  Let's have  a a non-emotional discussionto try to figure it out. In doing so, you can get to the core of it all and hopefully fix it.  If it's bigotry..WHY is it bigotry?
 
If one just HAS to tell..WHY? 


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RE: Get rid of "Don't ask, don't tell" milita... - 3/17/2007 4:28:12 PM   
Vendaval


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Military personnel live and work in close proximity, so keeping
one's sexual orientation a secret may not always be possible.
And if directly asked about their orientation, a person may
very well choose to tell the truth rather than lie.
 


_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to LotusSong)
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RE: Get rid of "Don't ask, don't tell" milita... - 3/17/2007 4:47:26 PM   
Vendaval


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"Don't Ask, Don't Tell, Don't Pursue, Don't Harass"
 " The "Don't Ask, Don't Tell, Don't Pursue, Don't Harass" policy requires gay, lesbian and bisexual service members to keep their sexual orientation secret and refrain from same-sex sexual conduct. The military is banned from asking questions about a service member's sexual orientation, and significant restrictions are placed on commanders seeking to investigate the possibility that a service member may be gay. Anti-gay harassment is prohibited under "Don't Ask, Don't Tell," as are "witch hunts" and certain other invasive investigations that have been used over the years to root out gay, lesbian and bisexual service members.
 
Under the current policy, service members may be investigated and administratively discharged if they:
  • make a statement that they are lesbian, gay or bisexual;
  • engage in physical contact with someone of the same sex for the purposes of sexual gratification; or
  • marry, or attempt to marry, someone of the same sex.

What is the policy's history?
 
Before "Don't Ask, Don't Tell," the stated policy of the U.S. military was that "homosexuality is incompatible with military service." All recruits were asked about their sexual orientation before they were allowed to serve. Service members suspected of being gay, lesbian or bisexual were questioned, prosecuted and even threatened with court martial and prison if they refused to give up the names of other service members who were also gay. Many of the gay soldiers being discharged were dishonorably discharged, making them ineligible for military pension and other retirement benefits.
 
In 1992, presidential candidate Bill Clinton declared his opposition to the military's exclusion of lesbian, gay and bisexual soldiers. During Clinton's first year in office, a very public congressional and national debate ensued regarding the question of whether the military's practices were acceptable.
 
Advocates for the gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender community proposed a policy of equal treatment, reasoning that sexual orientation has no bearing on a person's ability to serve. However, after hearings before the Senate Armed Services Committee and much debate, a compromise now known as the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell, Don't Pursue, Don't Harass" policy was reached in 1993.
 
What are the fiscal effects of the policy?
 
The policy's implementation has resulted in a substantial increase in the number of discharges based on sexual orientation as well as high costs related to the discharges. According to the Servicemembers Legal Defense Network, more than 9,000 service members have been discharged under the "don't ask, don't tell" policy at a cost of more than a quarter billion dollars to U.S. taxpayers.
 
Has harassment continued?

Although gay, lesbian and bisexual service members have been held to the "Don't Tell" portion of the policy, reports show that the "Don't Ask, Don't Pursue, Don't Harass" parts of the policy are often ignored.
 
A 2000 Defense Department inspector general survey showed that 80 percent of service members had heard offensive speech, derogatory names, jokes or remarks about gays in the previous year, and that 85 percent believed such comments were tolerated. Thirty-seven percent reported that they had witnessed or experienced direct, targeted forms of harassment, including verbal and physical assaults and property damage. Overwhelmingly, service members did not report the harassment. When asked why, many cited fear of retaliation.
 
Anti-gay epithets and jokes are not the only forms of sexual orientation harassment that persist in the military. In July 1999, Pfc. Barry Winchell was brutally beaten with a baseball bat in his barracks at Fort Campbell, Ky. He died as a result of the attack. Fellow soldiers testified that the death came months after vile anti-gay name-calling and harassment, rumor-mongering and inquiries into his private life. An Army inspector general report in July 2000 found that before and after the murder, Maj. Gen. Robert Clark, the commanding general at Fort Campbell, had not provided required training on the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy. Following the report, President George W. Bush twice nominated Clark for a promotion to lieutenant general, the Army's second highest rank. Due to controversy surrounding Clark's previous command at Fort Campbell, the Senate Armed Services Committee did not act on his promotion in 2002. In 2003, the committee is considering his nomination a second time.

Today, many service members continue to be interrogated, harassed and threatened about their sexual orientation. The "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy offers no safe space for service members dealing with such harassment, as psychotherapists, chaplains and doctors have all been known to report service members struggling with their sexual orientation or with harassment based on their perceived sexual orientation. Thus, confidentiality for service members facing these issues is almost nonexistent."

http://www.hrc.org/Content/NavigationMenu/HRC/Get_Informed/Issues/Military2/Fact_Sheets_Dont_Ask_Dont_Tell/Dont_Ask,_Dont_Tell_Fact_Sheet.htm

_____________________________

"Beware, the woods at night, beware the lunar light.
So in this gray haze we'll be meating again, and on that
great day, I will tease you all the same."
"WOLF MOON", OCTOBER RUST, TYPE O NEGATIVE


http://KinkMeet.co.uk

(in reply to clover)
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RE: Get rid of "Don't ask, don't tell" milita... - 3/18/2007 7:40:22 AM   
thetammyjo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong


Did you know that Rome actually outlawed homosexuality because it was so prevalent the population was decreasing? I saw that on the history of Rome one night. (just a tidbit that has nothing to do with this topic other than Michael's mention of Rome that brought it to mind)


What?!

I'm an ancient historian and I study gender and sexuality -- I have never heard of such a law.

You sure this was a Roman law or was it a Christian law? They aren't the same even if Christianity did later become the dominant religion in the empire. I suppose a pop history show might misunderstand some of what Augustus did but he didn't outlaw homosexuality, just encourage marriage and provide financial and political penalties for those who didn't get married by a certain age.

Romans had laws about appropriate sexuality but it wasn't based on just the sex or genders of those involved, it was far more complicated than that.

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Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

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Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to LotusSong)
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