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RE: "Praise the Lord!" - 3/20/2007 7:51:58 AM   
StellaByStarlite


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I am perplexed, do you believe spirituality and religion are the same thing?


Well.... the two are faith-based, so yes. I mean.. one can be spiritual and not part of organized religion. And one can go to church regularly, be a member of any organized religion, but not describe themselves as spiritual. But since both are, at their most basic level, based on faith, in my view, yes.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: "Praise the Lord!" - 3/20/2007 8:10:16 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: StellaByStarlite

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I am perplexed, do you believe spirituality and religion are the same thing?


Well.... the two are faith-based, so yes. I mean.. one can be spiritual and not part of organized religion. And one can go to church regularly, be a member of any organized religion, but not describe themselves as spiritual. But since both are, at their most basic level, based on faith, in my view, yes.


I have studied religion, people, culture, and belief from an academic perspective. I am not a Christian. I love to get into the heads of those who adhere to other belief systems from all over the world. It seems most people are predisposed to believe in something, if only the scientific method, which basically is based upon faith. It is based upon a cultural belief system, and we as the observer often get it wrong, or we actually change what we observe

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1998/02/980227055013.htm

Now I do not have faith in much but myself. You see in my belief system I am a deliberate creator. I am God, we are all God, and I do not need to prove to you or anyone else that my belief is correct.

Now seeing the diversity of religious faith on Planet Earth, the beauty of how people relate to The Sacred has always been deeply moving to me. It is not the content of their belief, it is the awe, the overwhelming power of the realization of how small we are in relation to everything else, yet how much a part of it we still remain.

I have read more than a few posts from you that seem to present yourself as somehow superior in your intellect in that you do not believe in anything... that attitude in and of itself is a belief structure. It sets you apart from the "faithful" and creates an attitude of superiority in my eyes... no better than that which you are supposedly denouncing.

I get it on every side, especially from Athiests, they do not quite know how to take my comments. I hope you will not be offended by my comments, they were not meant to be offensive anymore than your comments about religion are meant to offend others.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to StellaByStarlite)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: "Praise the Lord!" - 3/20/2007 8:11:12 AM   
bliss1


Posts: 497
Joined: 3/14/2007
Status: offline 		As a Wiccan Priestess (who has a sister who says i'm so far out of the closet they couldn't put me back in even if they wanted to - cause they couldn't find it.) I'm with popeye.

Growing up christian with all the do's and don'ts - no wonder I was in therapy.

Saw a bumper sticker once - Freedom of religion, also means freedom from religion.
That sums it up for me.

< Message edited by bliss1 -- 3/20/2007 8:12:10 AM >

_____________________________

Witch before, during, and after my coffee.

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RE: "Praise the Lord!" - 3/20/2007 8:19:44 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
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quote:

ORIGINAL: StellaByStarlite
Ok, I'll bite. =)
Are you saying that human beings NEED a spiritual base to have solid morals/values/ethics?

What about an ethics system that is based on scientific worldview.. or the old-school secular humanism? I mean, following your logic ( although if I'm incorrect, feel free to bitchslap this entire post, heheh), atheists have no ethics. Which is demonstrably false.

For clarification's sake.. I am not anti-theist. there is nothing wrong with honest theology and personal spirituality in itself. But I do take issue with the idea that faith or spirituality is the only real way to develop values or ethics. One can be totally without faith and still lead a good, decent life.
Maybe I misinterpreted your post, but it seems like you're saying that without spirituality, humanity automatically turns to anti-social, barbaric behavior. Well, religion and spirituality as a whole aren't exactly cutting down on atrocity. Maybe we need to present another system as a viable option.Stella


Stella,
I needed a word - "spirituality" fit the bill. Human secularists, aka "atheists", can be as "spiritual" as anyone else. I speak to the institutions. Catholicism and liberalism, Islam and conservatism, are very close at their fundamental roots. The distinction is that religious consequences impact human behavior in this world - the only world I currently consider valid. I'd be much safer in a world where everyone believed any act perpetrated against me or mine in this plane of existence had a consequence in the next plane. The insidious nature of Islam, at least the louder and more visible group outsiders refer to as "radical Islam", is that murdering infidels results in a positive reward. But this isn't a thread about Islam.

Call what I call "spirituality" "karma" and you don't have the problem of involving a Deity or an institution. On this plane, belief that a negative karma resulted in any act perpetrated upon another has the same impact as eternal damnation. The lack of belief in any afterlife makes this life "eternal". Getting caught isn't necessary. The negative act alone is to be avoided because the negativity returns to you.

"Ethics" and/or "morality" are still moving targets and can easily migrate to an "ism". Who doesn't believe enough in their personal ethics and/or morality to defend them and rationalize behavior because of them? Yet, a group of people believing in the same ethics and morals can defend genocide of another people solely because the other people's morals and ethics are distracting to theirs.

Clear?

And I don't "bitch-slap" unless you ask politely!

(in reply to StellaByStarlite)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: "Praise the Lord!" - 3/20/2007 8:44:04 AM   
BOUNTYHUNTER


Posts: 9259
Joined: 2/5/2004
Status: offline 		I too Julia, have had the Chance to study cultures and religions all over the world up close and personal.I have traveled to many countries in my military Career.I believe in a higher power NOW what this higher power is remains a mystery to me.I was raised in a hard southern religious family and was indoctrinated at an early age...I believe this "LORD" of our is sitting up there scratching his head as his creation's are killing and maiming each other.HES not here to solve all of our problems.HE gave us a mind so we as human should be able to work out the difficulties of living and learning together..Some times as I kneel to pray I wonder if the prayers fall on an ear turn away from us because of our short falls...AS always just this ol" masters views on religion...bounty

< Message edited by BOUNTYHUNTER -- 3/20/2007 8:45:03 AM >

_____________________________

US going to hell in a hand basket/

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Profile   Post #: 45
RE: "Praise the Lord!" - 3/20/2007 8:49:05 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		There is something that religion has never answered for me, why do bad things happen to good people?.... it is one of the eternal questions that haunt me.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to BOUNTYHUNTER)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: "Praise the Lord!" - 3/20/2007 9:03:10 AM   
blushingflower


Posts: 144
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		1. Prayer is as much (if not more) about how it impacts the person praying.  It doesn't matter so much that God finds it pleasing to hear "Praise the Lord", so much that it matters that saying it often refocuses the speaker to focus on the positive things in life.  Or to recognize that the positive things in their life may not be deserved, but are rather simply good fortune.
2. In many religions, it's generally believed that the Powers the Be enjoy being praised, and that they are more likely to give favor to those who praise them.  This may be us anthropomorphizing the animating forces of the universe, since most people like to be praised (I know I love hearing Daddy say I'm a good girl), we assume that those we worship would like it too.
3. An omnipotent being can multi-task very efficiently.

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: "Praise the Lord!" - 3/20/2007 9:06:16 AM   
meatcleaver


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Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

There is something that religion has never answered for me, why do bad things happen to good people?.... it is one of the eternal questions that haunt me.


Because with or without religion, bad people do bad things and good people do good things but it takes religion to make good people do bad things.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: "Praise the Lord!" - 3/20/2007 9:16:43 AM   
blushingflower


Posts: 144
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		 
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

There is something that religion has never answered for me, why do bad things happen to good people?.... it is one of the eternal questions that haunt me.

Good things happen to "bad" people too.  Sometimes it's just random chance.  Sometimes those bad things make good people better.  Sometimes people do bad things to others out of anger, hurt, fear, etc.  No one deserves everything that happens to them, be those things good or bad.  No newborn child is more deserving of a good home than any other, but yet some of us have parents who love us and nuture us, and others have parents who beat and abuse us.  And those early experiences can dramatically impact the rest of our lives.  Every city is filled with saints and sinners, but when an earthquake or hurricane hits, the houses of the righteous don't remain standing while the houses of the wicked fall.  Whether that's fair or not is up to you to question, but the Universe works according to certain natural laws, and Mother Nature doesn't discriminate.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: "Praise the Lord!" - 3/20/2007 9:20:51 AM   
caitlyn


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Joined: 12/22/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
The catholic path you espouse, while paved with good intentions:
has no room for practicing homosexuals
won’t allow it’s women birth control or a shot at leading a congregation of the faithful


I'm Catholic, and go to church every Sunday morning. I think our choir director is homosexual, and have to believe that most of the women in our church practice birth control.
 
I think there is a bit of difference between preaching against something as an ideal, and not allowing it. The family I live with is almost religious with the belief that you should life a debt-free lifestyle ... but seriously doubt they paid cash for the house we live in.
 
All organizations are going to have their problems. Much depends on the focus ... is it the good, or the flaws.

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RE: "Praise the Lord!" - 3/20/2007 9:21:02 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

There is something that religion has never answered for me, why do bad things happen to good people?.... it is one of the eternal questions that haunt me.


Because with or without religion, bad people do bad things and good people do good things but it takes religion to make good people do bad things.


So you think that all bad things are caused by other people? The car accident, the terminal illness, the birth defect, all these things were caused by religious people?

I have found my own personal explanatory model to explain why these things happen, and it has nothing to do with religion... and your belief that all bad things are caused by people is close, but it misses the mark... in my view we all create our own reality, everything good, bad, or indifferent is something that we created through our feelings, thoughts and actions... so good people, bad people... such a judgmental term... there is no good or bad, there is only energy, and that is what makes up the known universe... it is all just an energy field.. including you.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: "Praise the Lord!" - 3/20/2007 9:34:00 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		What if the human race is just some kind of "space virus" infecting the earth?

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: "Praise the Lord!" - 3/20/2007 9:39:09 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

There is something that religion has never answered for me, why do bad things happen to good people?.... it is one of the eternal questions that haunt me.


Because with or without religion, bad people do bad things and good people do good things but it takes religion to make good people do bad things.


So you think that all bad things are caused by other people? The car accident, the terminal illness, the birth defect, all these things were caused by religious people?

I have found my own personal explanatory model to explain why these things happen, and it has nothing to do with religion... and your belief that all bad things are caused by people is close, but it misses the mark... in my view we all create our own reality, everything good, bad, or indifferent is something that we created through our feelings, thoughts and actions... so good people, bad people... such a judgmental term... there is no good or bad, there is only energy, and that is what makes up the known universe... it is all just an energy field.. including you.


I actually believe that we are subject to random chance. There is no meaning behind anything other the than meaning we as humans attach to something. Whether someone is good or bad is purely subjective. Our morals and ethics are human constructs and have no relevance as to whether a meteor hits you this afternoon in the park, that has more to do with whether you decide to take that walk in the park or not after all.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: "Praise the Lord!" - 3/20/2007 9:39:22 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

What if the human race is just some kind of "space virus" infecting the earth?


What is the universe is a virus infecting a bigger more larger structure?

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: "Praise the Lord!" - 3/20/2007 9:41:35 AM   
valeca


Posts: 403
Joined: 1/9/2006
Status: offline 		Edited because it was answered.

My bad.


< Message edited by valeca -- 3/20/2007 9:42:09 AM >

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~valeca, Owned and Operated by Loraith.

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RE: "Praise the Lord!" - 3/20/2007 9:42:20 AM   
KatyLied


Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline
quote:

There is something that religion has never answered for me, why do bad things happen to good people?.


In the book of Job, god invites Satan to do all sorts of bad things to Job.

Maybe bad stuff is god's experiment? 


_____________________________

“If you want to live a happy life, tie it to a goal, not to people or things.”
- Albert Einstein

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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: "Praise the Lord!" - 3/20/2007 9:43:48 AM   
severetorture


Posts: 14
Joined: 2/15/2006
Status: offline 		Spirituality and religion are the same only in the fact they are both essentially human based.Spirituality is a feeling or emotion of being a part of something far greater,an emotional response to the things around us,living and otherwise.
Religion is a man-made attempt to corral the thinking and actions of human beings.Religion is oppressive,while spirituality can and should be uplifting.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: "Praise the Lord!" - 3/20/2007 9:47:37 AM   
severetorture


Posts: 14
Joined: 2/15/2006
Status: offline 		The question of why bad things happen to good people has been raised,but I think a better question is why bad things happen at all.I think the answer is that things happen,and we decide and make them bad or good depending upon our viewpoint.

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RE: "Praise the Lord!" - 3/20/2007 9:55:13 AM   
meatcleaver


Posts: 9030
Joined: 3/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

quote:

There is something that religion has never answered for me, why do bad things happen to good people?.


In the book of Job, god invites Satan to do all sorts of bad things to Job.

Maybe bad stuff is god's experiment? 



The old testement god was a psychopath. Not even Satan could up the sadistic tortures god had i mind!

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to KatyLied)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: "Praise the Lord!" - 3/20/2007 9:55:51 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
The catholic path you espouse, while paved with good intentions:
has no room for practicing homosexuals
won’t allow it’s women birth control or a shot at leading a congregation of the faithful


I'm Catholic, and go to church every Sunday morning. I think our choir director is homosexual, and have to believe that most of the women in our church practice birth control.
 
I think there is a bit of difference between preaching against something as an ideal, and not allowing it. The family I live with is almost religious with the belief that you should life a debt-free lifestyle ... but seriously doubt they paid cash for the house we live in.
 
All organizations are going to have their problems. Much depends on the focus ... is it the good, or the flaws.


Good for you, Caitlyn, that you can support the hypocisy in action at the Vatican all the way down to your local church and with the "religious" folks you live with by believing that the "good" that is done in the name of Catholicism outweighs the "bad".  To this slave, the Catholic church and their minions are the biggest glaring example of "Anti-Christ(ian)" imaginable.
 
when the hypocisy of not allowing Masons to be elders or speak in the church came to the Disciples of Christ sect that Dad was a member, elder and congregational song-leader of for 20+ years, he quit the church.  His faith in God remained, but his faith in organized religion was crushed.  He didn't join another congregation for the rest of his life.  He had a Masonic funeral, and according to his beliefs, was not damned to eternal suffering in hell as your religion, and others, claim.
 
to a practicing Catholic, this slave's realizes that her opinion doesn't really matter anyway, because this slave is just another lost soul, a heathen/pagan who will NEVER convert to the "One True Religion" and is damned to burn in Catholic hell for eternity.
 
this slave doesn't spend her Sunday's damning anyone to hell or padding the coffers of an organization that claims to follow the teachings of the Christ, but doesn't.

(in reply to caitlyn)
Profile   Post #: 60
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