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Thought I was OK, now a bit confused - 3/31/2007 9:24:16 AM   
Termyn8or


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Hi;

I guess this is as close as I've come to an identity crisis. It is not just about the label "switch", it is something different. Label was probably not quite the right word there, but I can't think of it right now. A term used like "dominant" or "submissive". In a way they are labels, but that is not my issue.

Labels are fine, when in that context. The thing is that I am not 100% sure I can label myself a switch.

I am dominant by nature, but I like to bottom. One might find me to be beligerant while bound, but I do not submit. Someone teasing me and trying to get me to submit, well, I like that. To what degree I capitulate to anything is still on me.

But when "switch" time is over I am in control.

But I do not take orders under any circumstances. Well I will at work. When I think something is being done the wrong way I'll say "I'll do it that way if you order me to", which means that the boss is taking full responsibility if things go wrong.

At home things are different.

Is it necessary to actually sub, take orders and all that to be considered a switch ?

I would like to know.

Thanks.

T
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RE: Thought I was OK, now a bit confused - 3/31/2007 9:50:30 AM   
uberprog


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No.

(in reply to Termyn8or)
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RE: Thought I was OK, now a bit confused - 3/31/2007 11:14:28 AM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or


Is it necessary to actually sub, take orders and all that to be considered a switch ?

I would like to know.

Thanks.

T



        I don't think so.  If you enjoy playing on both sides, having control sometimes and surrendering it on others, that is what makes a switch. 

      The headspace doesn't have to be a mirror image of how you play on the other side.

(in reply to Termyn8or)
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RE: Thought I was OK, now a bit confused - 3/31/2007 2:47:57 PM   
hawkwolf7


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I think I understand your confusion....

It might be helpful for you, (as it was for me), to see that BDSM has four semi-independent facets. Only one of these facets is about power exchange, and it is referred to as Master/slave or Dominant/submissive. Another facet is Sadist/Masochist, and it is primarily about physical pain. Since these two facets are independent, it is entirely possible to have a person who is a Dominant in the D/s facet, but is a masochist in the S&M facet.

This person could bottom in a scene, but would not submit during the scene.

It is also possible that this person could be both a Sadist and a Masochist. At times they will bottom during a scene (without submitting) or top during a scene. And if this person were to top a submissive, then it is likely that power exchange will occur before, during, or after the scene.

So, my interpretation of your question was this: If I don't submit while I am bottoming, does this still mean I am a switch?

My opinion is that you are a switch when it comes to S&M, but you aren't when it comes to D/s.

And in my own peculiarly twisted view, that still make you a switch, at least technically. But, when it comes to interacting with submissives, you're effectively a Dom.

In your shoes, on a site like CM, I would classify myself as a dominant. Then down in the profile, I would explain that in addition to being a dom, I am also a switch with regard to S&M (or whatever you decide to self-identify as).

I hope that made some sense, and helped a little.
HawkWolf


< Message edited by hawkwolf7 -- 3/31/2007 2:55:06 PM >


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RE: Thought I was OK, now a bit confused - 3/31/2007 3:11:52 PM   
MasterFireMaam


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I know many Masters and Dominants who are masochists and have fetishes they like to bottom to. Most are quite good at "topping from the bottom"; they know what they like and how to get it.

I know we talk about labels a lot, but perhaps this set of definitions might help:
Top/bottom are physical roles often called Masochist/sadist
Dominant/submissive are mental roles
Master/slave are spiritual roles.

They can be combined in many different ways. It's not always true that the Master always like to Dominant, has a dominant personality and is always the Top.

Just enjoy being you. You're allowed to be fluid and there's more like you than you think.

Master Fire


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(in reply to Termyn8or)
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RE: Thought I was OK, now a bit confused - 3/31/2007 3:43:40 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam

Top/bottom are physical roles often called Masochist/sadist
Dominant/submissive are mental roles
Master/slave are spiritual roles.
Master Fire




    I've never liked this set of definitions.  Masochists can't have a mental place to enjoy themselves from?  Could a sadist have just as much fun sticking needles in a teddy bear?

    And the whole M/s as 'spiritual'...  It's a system of belief that works for some, it is not the twuth.

< Message edited by TheHeretic -- 3/31/2007 3:45:43 PM >

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RE: Thought I was OK, now a bit confused - 4/1/2007 3:44:34 PM   
darkinshadows


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quote:

Is it necessary to actually sub, take orders and all that to be considered a switch ?
 
No.  But then being a switch doesn't mean you take orders and submit. Which is the same statement, yet reversed(if that makes sense).
 
I am a submissive personality and I can Top when it is required.  That does not make me a switch, as it is IMO a completely different mindset to being submissive to my partner... and the submission is the most important part to me - not switching.
Doesn't matter if I have the paddle or knife in my hand - I am still submissive in myself to my partner.


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RE: Thought I was OK, now a bit confused - 4/1/2007 3:49:59 PM   
darkinshadows


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quote:

Top/bottom are physical roles often called Masochist/sadist
Dominant/submissive are mental roles
Master/slave are spiritual roles.

I agree with The Heretic in that I am uncomfortable with these definitions.
I am submissive.  I can top.  I am masochistic and crave a whipping, yet revel in my Partners agony.
And all of these are spiritual to me, yet I am not a slave, nor property.
As for D/s being mental roles, I disagree - not for everyone.  Being submissive just 'is' for me.  I wouldn't claim it 'natural' because that sounds too pretentious to me.  But it isn't all mental and head space.  It is from the heart, the soul and spirit without question.
 
Peace and Rapture


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...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

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RE: Thought I was OK, now a bit confused - 4/1/2007 3:53:44 PM   
PsyVamp


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I have no idea if this helps you or not,

I have a switch friend that I play with, he has a dom and a sub or two.  He is also a masochist and a bit of a sadist. 
I am a dominant and cannot submit but I am also a masochist along with being a sadist. 
What this boils down to is that just because I can let him top at times in the pain arena, I do not consider myself a switch. 
And yes, I have tried to explore any submissive side, just don't seem to have one..LOL

Psy *who is very happy that she got to bite someone..and got bit back*



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RE: Thought I was OK, now a bit confused - 4/1/2007 6:46:51 PM   
DominaSmartass


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To clarify what Master Fire was saying, and omitting the spiritual part, cause I can understand your debate there ....

I consider S/M or topping/bottoming to be the physical aspects. Who is doing what to whom? It doesn't tell us anything about who is in charge.
That's what I consider D/s about. It is in no way a contradiction for the Dom to be the bottom or masochist and the sub to be the top or sadist. Everything is great as long as people are clear on what role they are taking on from the start. Things can be awfully difficult if a dom thinks he's got a sub but he's actually got a bottom. Or a sub thinks he's got a Dom but he's really got a top. Or any other combination of confusions. I believe that anyone who changes sides of the slash mark - so to speak - can accurately identify as a switch but that doesn't mean you have to. If you don't mind people asking you to explain yourself when you call yourself a dom but choose to bottom sometimes, then more power to you. I am a sadistic and masochistic dominant and I have to explain that to people sometimes. Though the more involved I've become with people I consider more knowledgeable and experienced, the less I have to explain how I can be masochistic and dominant.

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RE: Thought I was OK, now a bit confused - 4/1/2007 7:39:36 PM   
Mustardseed


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The definitions I'm used to for some of the standard roles played are a little different than the ones that MasterFireMaam listed:

Top / Bottom ~ fairly general terms. These usually mean that the one person likes "doing," and the other person likes being "done." The actions in question could involve the body, the mind, the emotions and possibly even the spirit depending upon the play.

Sadist / Masochist ~ slightly more specific terms that involve the consensual application of pain. A sadist likes hurting people with sensations that they either enjoy or they don't, while a masochist usually has at least a few types of sensation that they adore that most people would consider outright unpleasant.

Dominant / Submissive ~ this tends to involve the exchange of power in a permissive, controlling, training and / or punishing sense for a set duration of time, be it a scene, weekend, week, short-term contract, long-term contract and/or the multi-year duration of a given relationship.

Master / Slave ~ this is a specific type of relationship that I consider a subset of the Dominant / Submissive relationship. There is various argument about if and how these two types of dynamics are different, and I'm refusing to go there for very long. I will say that it certainly seems to be relevant to the relationship itself and to the beholder. Also, the term "Master" may mean something different in a community that identifies as "leather" than one that identifies as "kinky."

Owner / Property ~ I recently read of a slave who was owned by one person, but mastered by another. Again, I consider this a subset of the Dominant / Submissive dynamic, but could only guess at the differences.

Switch ~ depending on the switch's leanings, they could assume either role in any of the above mentioned dymanics. Being a switch doesn't marry that person to any specific dymanic that I've noticed, so a switch who is spied bottoming is no more submissive than anyone else who enjoys receiving sensation.




I am a switch. A joke I learned early on in the local community is that I'm a Switch with Bottom Rising. I have a Daddy. With him, I'm submissive. He's a dominant, he's a top, he wants to be a master and he doesn't #$%&*@!!! switch. He has issues with being confused for a submissive or a switch, on being told by his nearest and dearest that he really is a switc, that it'd be better for him if he'd just relax and admit it, and that all of the best tops bottom every once in a while - how else can they understand what they're doing? Issues with a capital Ish.

However, he likes dating switches. He doesn't want someone who's gonna just roll over and do what he wants without being actively enthusiastic about it, who isn't going to make sure he's aware of their needs and desires, etc. He may not be able to oblige, and he doens't want every little thing to be a fight, but he wants traits that he mainly finds in switches.

But he doesn't switch. Period.

Granted, I feel that this is a bit of a pity. He's got an excellent pain tollerance, is incredibly beautiful, is quite helpful within our local community, etc. He'll have me test out toys on him briefly in shops (we've even done so in the toy department in Value Village). But I've only seen him take orders from one person -- the person we work with while volunteering, a person he respects highly and who doesn't boss him outside of the actual job.

I have ordered my Daddy around once and have gotten away with it. He was sick over a year ago, and in my home. He got a bad case of the shivers, which he'd never experienced before. He was terrified because he didn't know what was going on. I went into nurse mode, got him into my huge robe, sat him down in front of a heater and gave him hot soup to drink. Not before or since have I been able to say, "Daddy, put this on. Okay, sit down. Wait there." and get away with it. However, in my humble opinion, it needed to be done simply because the control was out of his hands and I was the nearest person to accept it.

Once Daddy helped me while I was trying to figure out knots by offering his wrist. He loves bondage ... on other people. I nearly gaped at him, but did as I was bid and wrapped up his wrist. Shortly after we were sure that I'd done it right, could get my finger in between the rope and his flesh, etc., he told me to get the rope off of him. I later confirmed that he would have happily accepted me whipping the rope around and risking burning him if I could have gotten it off of him faster.

He doesn't get anything out of bottoming, gets nothing out of being bossed. Zip. Nada.

However, that doesn't mean that Daddy doesn't accept sensation at my instigation. I can come up behind him while he's online and pet his hair, sending him into shivers. When I suck his cock, I am responsible for his experience, his pleasure and his safety -- I'm basically service bottoming. Appropriately enough, I've taken this same sort of attitude towards anal sex (which he adores as either the pitcher or the catcher) and knife play -- though I don't initiate either of these nearly as casually as I do the petting or oral sex. As long as I don't act as though Daddy is now my bitch, we're good. A great deal of it is about attitude.

Daddy doesn't identify as a switch, though at least one person has tried to tell me that I seem to be the dominant partner in this relationship. I see what I do as service bottoming in those instances. I don't need to have Daddy order me to please him every single time -- he likes that I'm learning to anticipate his needs by offering either verbally or simply through my actions.

Are you a switch? Maybe of some sort. Two of the most well though of dominants I know in the community switch from time to time simply for their own pleasure. But it really depends on how you identify. Others may look at your relationships and see something you don't. That's great, but that's them.

(in reply to DominaSmartass)
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RE: Thought I was OK, now a bit confused - 4/1/2007 8:27:34 PM   
michaels4evr


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You sound like a masochistic Dominant to me. If the term switch doesn't do it for you, you aren't obligated to use it to describe who you are.

(in reply to Mustardseed)
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RE: Thought I was OK, now a bit confused - 4/1/2007 10:48:01 PM   
Termyn8or


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OK sorting this out.

A dominant masochist. I haven't used that term with the one I might just attract. I think, at least in this venue we need to remove the pain component from S&M. Pain is not required, but it helps for some. For others it is the restraint.

So taking that component, without pain it boils dow to the itch one cannot scratch, the immobility. The bondage.Taking that component alone, I am in a certain category. I like it both ways.

Then there is the rest of life.

I have had some thoughts, I will not give up, I will run my life, nobody can tell me what to do, even the government. Actually anyone can tell me what to do, but I am going to do what I damn well please, just like I have since I was 12 years old.

So a couple times a month, my sub has me chained down, all vulnerable, and that is her time to think about her own pleasure, use me like a piece of meat. This is her time, every other weekend or something like that.

And whatever she does, all is forgiven. None of it pervades into normal life.

But that's not really a switch ?

Honestly, I would like to know what to put in my profile. I do not want to mislead anyone and I would also like to be contacted by people who are most likely to be compatible with me. The only way for them to know that is via my profile and journal.So am I to describe myself as a dominant masochist ? It almost seems like an oxymoron, but we know it is not.

Mainly I do not want to be bothered by people who are not campatible and I want to br bothered by those who are. So my profile is a bout due for a big revamp, just wanna get it right.

T

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RE: Thought I was OK, now a bit confused - 4/2/2007 3:21:10 AM   
darkinshadows


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Thing is - you aren't going to be able to keep everyone happy.  Some people will always say you are a switch.
Personally, from what you have written - if you are in control of life in general and of the play and the situation even when your submissive is 'on top' - then I would describe you as a Dominant who occasionally bottoms - rather than a switch.  Maybe you have a masochistic and sadistic urge, one just stronger or dominant than the other most of the month.
 
I have usually described myself as a submissive sadist - of course that has altered with my Boy, because he has taught me what it means to enjoy pain, but I can still be aroused at the sound of him tormented when he has me top.
 
I always think of switches being 'conscious' - in the sense that they know they switch, they do switch, they are switches.  Whereas domination or submission is something that occurs between two people without thought - it just happens - and sometimes, the play can reverse without arrangement in which case you can top and bottom, but the power and control remains the same.  You still know who is in control... no question.


< Message edited by darkinshadows -- 4/2/2007 3:23:07 AM >


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RE: Thought I was OK, now a bit confused - 4/2/2007 5:58:41 AM   
Mustardseed


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

OK sorting this out.

A dominant masochist. I haven't used that term with the one I might just attract. I think, at least in this venue we need to remove the pain component from S&M. Pain is not required, but it helps for some. For others it is the restraint.

So taking that component, without pain it boils dow to the itch one cannot scratch, the immobility. The bondage.Taking that component alone, I am in a certain category. I like it both ways.

Then there is the rest of life.

I have had some thoughts, I will not give up, I will run my life, nobody can tell me what to do, even the government. Actually anyone can tell me what to do, but I am going to do what I damn well please, just like I have since I was 12 years old.

So a couple times a month, my sub has me chained down, all vulnerable, and that is her time to think about her own pleasure, use me like a piece of meat. This is her time, every other weekend or something like that.

And whatever she does, all is forgiven. None of it pervades into normal life.

But that's not really a switch ?


So, just making sure I understand this: you bottom to her in that she can restrain you and do anything she wants to you ... so long as she doesn't hurt you, or at least doesn't make inflicting pain her primary objective?

If I've got that right then, yes, you're right to question the "masochist" title. I wonder if "ravishment swtch" is an oft used phrase?

Switching does not have to be a 50/50 activity. It can be done rarely in either direction, but it still means that someone plays on either side of the slash.


quote:

Honestly, I would like to know what to put in my profile. I do not want to mislead anyone and I would also like to be contacted by people who are most likely to be compatible with me. The only way for them to know that is via my profile and journal.So am I to describe myself as a dominant masochist ? It almost seems like an oxymoron, but we know it is not.

Mainly I do not want to be bothered by people who are not campatible and I want to br bothered by those who are. So my profile is a bout due for a big revamp, just wanna get it right.


So, what you're getting from your submissive isn't something you want to stay unique to you two? Okay. Well, how did you explain it to your submissive such that she got the idea of what you wanted?

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RE: Thought I was OK, now a bit confused - 4/2/2007 6:07:37 AM   
darkinshadows


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

OK sorting this out.

A dominant masochist. I haven't used that term with the one I might just attract. I think, at least in this venue we need to remove the pain component from S&M. Pain is not required, but it helps for some. For others it is the restraint.

So taking that component, without pain it boils dow to the itch one cannot scratch, the immobility. The bondage.Taking that component alone, I am in a certain category. I like it both ways.

T

Question - are you saying that you enjoy the restriction (ie bondage) and the loss of control for short periods, rather than being subjected to pain or a sadist?  That you bottom within the relationship at unspecified moments in a sexual or scene context?
 

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RE: Thought I was OK, now a bit confused - 4/2/2007 6:12:49 AM   
mp072004


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quote:


So a couple times a month, my sub has me chained down, all vulnerable, and that is her time to think about her own pleasure, use me like a piece of meat. This is her time, every other weekend or something like that.

And whatever she does, all is forgiven. None of it pervades into normal life.


It sounds like you're chiefly dominant, and socially dominant, but you also have moments of behaving as a bedroom submissive. I say this because when you're tied up and bottoming, the top is doing what he or she wants, "using you like a piece of meat." Nothing wrong with that, but it is quite different from behaving as a dominant masochist. As earlier posters have explained very well, dominant masochists generally behave dominantly when they bottom--they run the scenes.

So: yes, you switch, although it seems that you're more inclined to dominate and top than to submit and bottom.

What to put in your profile? Write your profile for what you want to attract. If your desires for getting tied up are adequately met by the relationship you described, or if you just don't want to look on here for someone to top you, then don't spend time discussing it on your profile. In general, I would advise you to avoid labels, because of the lack of clarity that you recognized, and describe what you want to do. "I would like a relationship in which we meet about every two weeks for play, in which I am bound and you run the scene. I don't want power-exchange, romance, or really much contact outside of playing together." That's one way to phrase it, anyway--because of second person, it's more appropriate to an established email contact, but you could easily rework that.

Monica

(in reply to Termyn8or)
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RE: Thought I was OK, now a bit confused - 4/3/2007 7:37:14 AM   
elisabet


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I'm pretty similar to the way you described yourself.  I enjoy...no, ADORE, the struggle and when I'm forced to submit but I'll never submit willingly...it's always a struggle.  I'm also something of a masochist *and* sadist and I think that's probably part of why I'm this way.  The only erotica I really enjoy is from the sub's point of view, the dom pov bores me.  The majority of the fantasies in my head are also from a sub's point of view.  But in reality, I despise subbing unless it's absolutely exactly how I want it (ahem... sounding a little dominant there) and like I said, I fight it the whole way.  A dominant nature also comes easily and very naturally to me, socially and in the bedroom.  Just wanted to say I can feel ya with your identity crisis type thing, haha.

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RE: Thought I was OK, now a bit confused - 4/3/2007 11:18:36 AM   
michaels4evr


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May be semantics-- but for me a masochistic Dominant is different from a Dominant masochist..a masochistic Dominant is someone who is turned on by pain or the loss of control at times, but is a Dominant personality or one who is Dominant within the contact of the relationship...rather than a Dominant masochist which would be as described..more someone who runs the scene even though he is the one on the bottom...perhaps a Dominant who occassionally bottoms is better to describe things as it sounds like you enjoy bondage rather than pain..but i tend to use masochist to describe more than just actual painplay..but to each his own..we will never all agree on the definition of terms..so in terms of your profile- it is a mere introduction anyway. Until you really start talking to the person and exploring each other's desires, wants, needs, etc..all cannot possibly be clear..and even then..you will learn more as the relationship progresses..


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RE: Thought I was OK, now a bit confused - 4/4/2007 8:10:55 PM   
arayofsunshine55


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I know of dominants who own slaves and like to bottom.  And the dom from the bottom, telling their slaves exactly what they want and how they want it.  Not for everyone but very possible.

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Sunshine

Is it not most transformative, most earthshaking, to pierce the veils of self-deception and illusion, and crack the eggshell of ignorance, to most intimately encounter oneself? Lama Surya Das

(in reply to Termyn8or)
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