RE: slavery a gift??? (Full Version)

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junecleaver -> RE: slavery a gift??? (4/18/2005 8:36:34 PM)

I don't agree with the gift philosophy. Maybe that works for some people, for me it doesn't. It completely turns me off.

I don't want to give a gift. D/s is a structure I use to communicate affection. It's a structure in which myself and my relationships thrive. It's not a gift. It's just me being myself with someone that I care very much about.

To call it a gift makes me feel like he should send me a thank-you card or something.



lil1v -> RE: slavery a gift??? (4/18/2005 10:51:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: junecleaver
D/s is a structure I use to communicate affection. It's a structure in which myself and my relationships thrive. It's not a gift. It's just me being myself with someone that I care very much about.


I agree .. its a structure I also find effective to communicate my affection. But in that structure, I give myself to him. Whether you use the term "gift" or not, I expect to be appreciated and respected for daily/hourly giving myself wholy to him.

quote:

ORIGINAL: junecleaver
To call it a gift makes me feel like he should send me a thank-you card or something.


*laughs* hmm.. Does FTD make a flower basket for that? [:D]



darkinshadows -> RE: slavery a gift??? (4/19/2005 1:30:55 AM)

what you say might be true for some people, but for me it's different.

Lol... but then, I never wanted to be the same as others!

I give my children 'gifts'... and do I get a warm fuzzy feeling?... yup, kinda... but I don't see them as gifts, I see it as giving being natural, it's something inside me that I do because they are my children. I give them love, security as much as I can, presents to make them smile and if they need anything... but to me it is natural, like submission and Domination... people submit and dominate at times without thinking, it is inherent in everyone, even if people do not notice it, because its so natural. But I don't see it as gifts.

If I give money to charity, i do it because I want that charity to do well, it feels right to me. It's not a gift, but a donation of my funds to aid an organisation. They are the ones they help people, not me. I just did something that was right for me and is natural. Doesn't make feel 'better' about myself or give a warm glow, I just did what I wanted to do, or what Demon has commanded.

If I buy a gift to give someone, I never give to receive. I never expect a 'warm feeling or self gratification, because that isn't who I am. That would be selfish and self indulgent and whatever God created me, created me for something more important than my own selfishness. I am sure plenty do feel good about themselves when they give a gift and thats good for them, but I don't. I give because its what I believe is right. I have to think about it. I have to think what that person would like, and then go out of my way to do it or purchase it. If I complement someone on their appearence, I do so because I say what I think. If is a gift it is considered, but when I submit, it just happens. I don't think about it, I just do. Gifts IMO should be thought about, not just bought and given, because if you don't consider the gift, then it makes it worthless. Submission is the opposite to me. Submission is a response that one doesnt think about. I submit to Demon, I have learnt about Him, through Him. So that when the time came to submit totally, it came without second thoughts and was natural.

So for me, there is no link between gifts and Domination/submission.



LordODiscipline -> RE: slavery a gift??? (4/19/2005 4:33:26 AM)

I do not believe anything imparted by one person to another in a relationship is a 'gift' - A lot of romantic clap trap that means nothing, really - - - and, stating that someone is a "true" anything is a clear indication of the zeal brought on by dimentia or newness.

~J



EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: slavery a gift??? (4/19/2005 5:35:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: BobcatsLilMinx
Sounds like my parents *laughs* "May I go the bathroom?" "Shut up and sit down".

Out of curiosity, would you be happy in this sort of relationship?


That's a great question, and one I have asked myself and one the Owner has asked me before.

My answer now is, when I feel connected and secure within myself and where I fit into things, yes I can be happy. When I feel disconnected and insecure and unsure of how I fit into things, no I'm not happy like that.

And the Owner isn't always like that, he's extremely appreciative considering what he could be, but it's always his choice.



BobcatsLilMinx -> RE: slavery a gift??? (4/19/2005 6:19:20 AM)

It's really cool reading all the differnt perspectives here.

Well, I guess at 19, I'm still young enough to hold onto my romantic claptrap and metaphors *smiles* Maybe I'm an idealist. Never mind, it takes all kinds!

quote:

My answer now is, when I feel connected and secure within myself and where I fit into things, yes I can be happy. When I feel disconnected and insecure and unsure of how I fit into things, no I'm not happy like that.


This is very much how I feel. Knowing my place in the relationship and knowing where I stand is the important thing. I count myself as lucky that my Master does choose to be so giving. I know that's a privilidge, and aye, admittedly something I do expect to a certain degree, because its what he's taught me I can expect from him. If it changed, I would be disconcerted, and unsure what to do. But I know I would continue to serve him to th best of my ability. you're very right Emerald, it is his choice, and I'm very grateful that he continues to make the choice that I enjoy!

Painting rainbows in the sky, and handing out a little faerie dust to everyone who wants it....
Minx



Padriag -> RE: slavery a gift??? (4/19/2005 8:06:45 AM)

Personally I don't view submission as a gift at all. I think that perspective has the potential to lead to some unhealthy relationships. Instead I see it as an exchange. My reaxoning goes something like this.

In D/s or M/s relationships we talk about power exchange being the fundamental dynamic the defines the relationship as being D/s or M/s (as opposed to say a vanilla relationship... or a kinky relationship where you have fetishes but no power exchange). Stopping to think about that... if power exchange is the dynamic... what exactly are we exchanging? The submissive gives up some degree of control, that is submission. I think we all agree on that point. But an exchange is a trade, what is that control being exchanged for? This is where the idea of it being a gift really breaks down for me. A gift is something given... but an exchange is something given in trade for. Two diferent concepts.

If a gift is something freely given, then the submissive has given herself away with no strings attached. That implies the dominant has no responsibilities. I've seen some dominants take exactly that attitude and feel that the submissive (in most cases a slave) was just an object they could do with at they pleased... including give her away, abuse her, neglect her, ignore her, and otherwise fail to provide for her basic needs as a human being. And I've even seen some defend this as being what a M/s slave relationship should be. What I call it is entirely unhealthy and unethical on the part of the dominant. But... if she gave herself as a gift with no strings attached its easy to see how some progress in their logic to that point.

But if we change our thinking and treat it as an exchange... exactly what we've been calling it, a power exchange, it changes the logic. Returning to my question from above, if the submissive gives control in exchange for something from the dominant, what does the dominant exchange? How about things like providing structure, boundaries, goals and expectations, fulfills the submissives need for affection, discipline, positive reinforcement, security, and guidance. Now we have a defined exchange, a defined basis for a relationship. Each has a clearly defined role to fulfill. This sets up an inheritly more healthy dynamic in the relationship as well.

It also does something else... it gives a basis for either side to know when they need to end the relationship and walk away if it ever becomes necessary. How many times have we all heard of a submissive who felt trapped in a relationship we could all see had gone bad... but they were stuck in that "I gave myself, I don't have the right to take that back" mindset, so they stayed, they accepted the abuse, they accepted the neglect, the mistreatment, even though we all knew they should get out.

But if we start viewing it as an exchange, now we have a different basis for things. If the dominant doesn't hold up their end of the exchange, doesn't fulfill their role in the relationship, then the exchange is broken. If its broken then there is nothing to obligate the submissive to stay in an unhealthy relationship. To my mind, that's a lot saner way of looking at things.

YMMV,



EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: slavery a gift??? (4/19/2005 8:27:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag
This is where the idea of it being a gift really breaks down for me. A gift is something given... but an exchange is something given in trade for. Two diferent concepts.

I don't use the term "power exchange" either, since I don't exchange my power. I transfer my authority to the Owner.

While he can trade me personally to others, the authority is still "within" him and my power is still within me.

I also dislike the gift and exchange concept because SO often it turns into the sub putting herself on this pedastal of "Worthiness" for doms to fight for like knights in armor going through gauntlets chasing this carrot on a stick of submission. Often this is allowed under the guise of "testing dominance." I find it fairly distasteful.

quote:

... including give her away, abuse her, neglect her, ignore her, and otherwise fail to provide for her basic needs as a human being.

Hmmm...giving someone away is hardly in the same category as abuse...and most submissives are ok with the dom choosing to ignore her at lease sometimes. How often do you hear subs say the worst punishment is to be ignored? They obviously think that being ignored in some cases is appropriate and even desireable.

Your use of "otherwise fail to provide" assumes that everything else you mentioned was somehow lacking in providing for the needs of the submissive, which I obviously disagree with.
quote:


And I've even seen some defend this as being what a M/s slave relationship should be. What I call it is entirely unhealthy and unethical on the part of the dominant. But... if she gave herself as a gift with no strings attached its easy to see how some progress in their logic to that point.

Depends on which part of the list you made you're talking about. While I don't think a Ms relationship SHOULD involve the ability to trade away a slave, it certainly can without being abusive or wrong or bad or unethical. Same with being ignored.
quote:


But if we change our thinking and treat it as an exchange... exactly what we've been calling it, a power exchange, it changes the logic.

I don't use "power exchange" and think it's a pretty bad term for what's actually going on.

quote:

Returning to my question from above, if the submissive gives control in exchange for something from the dominant, what does the dominant exchange? How about things like providing structure, boundaries, goals and expectations, fulfills the submissives need for affection, discipline, positive reinforcement, security, and guidance. Now we have a defined exchange, a defined basis for a relationship. Each has a clearly defined role to fulfill. This sets up an inheritly more healthy dynamic in the relationship as well.

Hmmmm lots of doms don't desire or care about affection, security or guidance, they just want obedience. Also, as competent adults, we shouldn't "need" to be disciplined.

Your list just makes submissives sound like lost little scared lambs. Granted, a lot of them are.

Nothing's wrong with providing security and boundaries and affection of course, but those things all occur in vanilla relationships as well. As well- submissives can provide each of those things either to themselves or to the dominant. The Owner is horrible when it comes to making schedules and keeping track of time, that's my job to do for him. I also give him lots of affection.

What dominants provide is a conscious authority within the relationship towards all aspects of the relationship.

quote:

but they were stuck in that "I gave myself, I don't have the right to take that back" mindset, so they stayed, they accepted the abuse, they accepted the neglect, the mistreatment, even though we all knew they should get out.

I've often been told the Owner is abusing me in my situation now...I don't really care what "they all know." While of course abuse occurs in both Ms and vanilla situations, not feeling they don't have the right to take it back is not inherently bad or wrong.



domtimothy46176 -> RE: slavery a gift??? (4/19/2005 9:38:13 AM)

I rejected the idea of submission as a gift a while back. I think it's a destructive philosophy to adhere to, putting the dominant in a passive role. Ideally, I feel D/s should be a symbiotic relationship, wherein both parties bring value to the relationship that is perceived as equal, if not greater, to the effort required to be succesful within the relationship.
I, personally, have no interest in in someone who wants to give me the "gift" of submission. No thanks, I don't need your charity. I am well-equipped to engage in mutual gratification, I don't need the freebies nor the headache of dealing with someone who felt a sense of entitlement due to the generousity of her "gift".
As I've said before, I think one could make a much stronger case for the "gift" of dominance, although it would ultimately be just as destructive. I think one must neccessarily develop an honest appreciation of what one has to offer and what one needs in a relationship. Pursuing relationships wherein the needs of all parties are met is more productive, IMO, than attempting to portray oneself as the bearer of gifts upon the unworthy.
Timothy



darkinshadows -> RE: slavery a gift??? (4/19/2005 12:22:43 PM)

quote:

But if we start viewing it as an exchange, now we have a different basis for things. If the dominant doesn't hold up their end of the exchange, doesn't fulfill their role in the relationship, then the exchange is broken. If its broken then there is nothing to obligate the submissive to stay in an unhealthy relationship. To my mind, that's a lot saner way of looking at things.


I guess for some people, an exchange is what it might be, but not for everyone. If you view it as an exchange, then its thought about, considered... Exchange rings of conciousness. The decision to realise ones potential is concious, but to Dominate or submit is a natural occurence.

My body, mind, spirit, everything that I am... had the urge to submit to Demon. And that is what it is. It isn't an exchange, it isn't a Gift, it is just there. Because of my respect for Him, my trust I submitted. In time, Love grew and became part of the equasion. Did I submit to gain gratification? Or to recieve something in return? The knowledge of care and release in slavery, in submission, yes... but not to get a 'thank you'.
An exchange shouts of something desired which is wanted. I didn't want anything. I didn't go out to conciously want His Domination. Yet at the same time, I did feel released.

If a Dominant doesn't fulfill their role, then there are expectations. To us, that isn't Domination and submission. Expectation brings rules not freedom. The natural thing to me is that everything I am is His. Period.

Peace and Love

It is human nature to want to belong to something. So some people need I guess to call Domination and submission a Gift, or an exchange or any number of descriptions... In our relationship, we don't have a need to belong, because we belong (in a sense) to each other. People get wrapped up in the desire to justify what they believe or study or follow. Dress it up all you like, make it romantic, glorify it, try and make it better, vie for the best position, exude greatness. But in the end, Domination is Domination, and submission is submission. (Demon)



EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: slavery a gift??? (4/19/2005 12:31:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel
If a Dominant doesn't fulfill their role, then there are expectations. To us, that isn't Domination and submission. Expectation brings rules not freedom. The natural thing to me is that everything I am is His. Period.


To me all relationships have (and should have) expectations and conditions for them to work. You expect that you will each still want to be in this relationship tomorrow, you expect that their character will not vastly change, etc.

Now, life tends to throw us things we never could have anticipated and we work through changes as best we can. But I don't think the Owner isn't dominant to me just because I expect that he will continue to be the person I have learned him to be.



darkinshadows -> RE: slavery a gift??? (4/19/2005 12:45:11 PM)

Oh I agree... life without expectations would be pointless and dull. But I am not talking about Life or relationships, or what I am concious of, I am speaking about my submission.

Peace and Love



ProtagonistLily -> RE: slavery a gift??? (4/19/2005 1:11:40 PM)

Padriag and others,

It's really really nice to hear people frame their opinions in terms of Power Exchange. I'm happy to see more of that popping up in the boards and get a little concerned when I don't.

Lily



EmeraldSlave2 -> RE: slavery a gift??? (4/19/2005 1:18:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ProtagonistLily

Padriag and others,

It's really really nice to hear people frame their opinions in terms of Power Exchange. I'm happy to see more of that popping up in the boards and get a little concerned when I don't.

Lily

For me power exchange doesn't occur. I still have all the power I had before the Owner took me as his slave. In fact, in many ways I am MORE powerful and stronger than I was before, he has helped me to become so.

What I did was transfer authority OVER my power to him. I need power within me to be disciplined, to carry out orders, to be the slave he wants me to be. He simply has the authority to direct it and decide how it is expressed.

So I find "ultimate authority transfer" to be much more precise and true to life than "total power exchange."



perverseangelic -> RE: slavery a gift??? (4/19/2005 3:54:39 PM)

*DISCLAIMER*
These thoughts are still in their raw form. There's probaly going to be some refining before I 100% believe what I'm saying.


quote:

ORIGINAL: EmeraldSlave2
For me power exchange doesn't occur. I still have all the power I had before the Owner took me as his slave. In fact, in many ways I am MORE powerful and stronger than I was before, he has helped me to become so.

What I did was transfer authority OVER my power to him. I need power within me to be disciplined, to carry out orders, to be the slave he wants me to be. He simply has the authority to direct it and decide how it is expressed.

So I find "ultimate authority transfer" to be much more precise and true to life than "total power exchange."



This got me thinking a lot, and I think it's right on the money. I used the phrase "power exchange" because to me it seemed less loaded than a lot of choices. However, it -isn't- that accurate. Has power -actually- been exchanged? Is the submissive partner -actually- unable to do certain things and make certain decitions?

No. We all still have the power to do them. We choose not to because the choices and behaviors no longer fall within our sphere of authority. I think that term fits better, because it implies a responsibility to someone, and obedicence to someone rather than the total abandonment of any personal choices. Wouldn't that be what TPE is? Totally giving up the power to make any decitions?


(I can see a counter argument to that-- the dominant partner can choose to give the submissive partner power. That is, to give back some of the power taken in TPE { assume "power" is a commodity. It makes it a bit less confusing }. However, if the submissive partner is given back power, has personal power, then there has NOT been a total power exchange. There HAS been a total authority exchange.)

Thanks Emerald for getting me thinking.



allyC -> RE: slavery a gift??? (4/23/2005 10:43:32 PM)

Hello, folks. :)

I have noticed in most "submissive is/is not a gift" discussions that people (including myself sometimes *grin*) get very hung up on semantics. I've also noticed that people compare the term "gift" with "present" as if they mean exactly the same thing.

To me, buying someone a present is a completely different vein than the concept of a gift of self in a relationship. They really can't be compared effectively because they are two completely different things.

I am of the school of thought that there are no truly selfless human beings out there. We all have expectations of some sort for our actions. Even if those expectations are the benefit of others, it still satisfies us on some emotional or spiritual level or we wouldn't do it. Even in martial arts, when a student must perform menial tasks that have no apparent merit - acts that give no immediate gratification or result - the result in the long run is spiritual growth and discipline. There is something "in it" for them in the end and they know it. If at the end of the road, nothing waited for them, they wouldn't be there striving and reaching for it every day.

I don't necessarily believe that submission itself is a gift. I haven't given my submission to my owner but rather I submit to him - it is an action. On the other hand, I have given myself. I am the gift. My thoughts, actions, talents, skills - everything I bring to the table for him are a part of me. In giving myself to him for his use, pleasure, ownership, and control, I have given him something that contains many smaller gifts within.

I did not do this as a purely selfless act. I did this as a direct result of who we are as people together. I did this because with him I could be no other way and in this alone, I find extraordinary self fulfillment. He is generous with his emotions and his praise as well as his guidance and discipline. I knew this when I gave myself to him. I knew what I would receive in return and I craved it with all that I am. That doesn't make it less of a gift - it just makes it both a natural and educated one.

If he was not the person that he is, I would never have given myself over to his control and ownership. Giving something for no reason whatsoever seems silly to me. There is always a reason.

That's why I've never much been a subcriber to the belief that the "only" gratification a slave gets is from serving and being pleasing. If that were the case, then the slave wouldn't care who she served. It could be Charles Manson for all the slave cared because it was only the service and obedience that twisted her rig and not anything she had the potential to get in return.

*Grin* Maybe I'm just a selfish slave....

Well wishes to everyone :)








darkinshadows -> RE: slavery a gift??? (4/24/2005 6:31:12 AM)

quote:

If he was not the person that he is, I would never have given myself over to his control and ownership. Giving something for no reason whatsoever seems silly to me. There is always a reason.


Maybe there is always a reason, but the reason isnt always selfish. Sometimes peole 'give things' without realising they do. And sometimes people give, not to gain a response for themselves but for the response of others. Either way it is a gain, but not always selfish one.

If anyone were to subscribe to the 'gift' ideals, then one should also say that there is a the 'gift of release'... and the 'gift of discipline'... maybe if I saw that more often, I might be willing to accept the whole idea.

As it stands, I don't 'give' myself. I don't 'give' my submission... It simply happens and occurs without thinking. Ysing the Manson analagy, sure... it happens... it happens in life all the time. People submit to ideas that they are not always comfortable with the person. It does happen. Because viewing that submission is a gift, then this is a gift also?

Just a thought.

Peace and Love



smilezz -> RE: slavery a gift??? (4/24/2005 6:49:18 AM)

It's who i am, not what i give.

~smilezz~



allyC -> RE: slavery a gift??? (4/24/2005 1:00:49 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dark~angel

Ysing the Manson analagy, sure... it happens... it happens in life all the time. People submit to ideas that they are not always comfortable with the person. It does happen. Because viewing that submission is a gift, then this is a gift also?


I don't view submission as a gift at all as I stated above. It isn't something I give but rather something I do 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. Submitting to ideas that are not comfortable would not be a "gift" either. At least not to me.

I don't believe that it happens all the time (the "Manson" analogy). People may submit to ideas they aren't comfortable with but that wasn't what I was speaking of. In the context in which I used it, I don't think it would happen at all. How many lifestyle slaves have surrendered to another human being with no care whatsoever for who that person is or how they would be treated because their only joy is in serving? I don't believe in that concept.

I used Manson as an example but you could insert any horrible type person. People make foolish choices and turn a blind eye to red flags all the time, however, they don't surrender in a lifelong committment of M/s to another human being with no regard whatsoever for who that person is, the treatment they will receive, and what fulfillment they might get out of it. I just don't believe that it happens. If they do, then I wouldn't call it slavery, I'd call it stupidity. *grin*

I can see both sides of the fence on the "gift" thing though. I think that it is all just a matter of semantics. Its all in how people interpret the word "gift." The end result is the same. Someone dominates, someone submits. :)

Well wishes, Angel :)

-Cav's girl
ally{C}






darkinshadows -> RE: slavery a gift??? (4/24/2005 1:49:11 PM)

quote:

The end result is the same. Someone dominates, someone submits. :)


Well, one only need look at politics to see how the (manson) analagy to submitting to something they don't like works... but thats another thread...lololol...

I think your right. Someone dominates, someone submits... but I would add, be it BDSM or life.
I truely believe that the 'true/real/gift' analagy(sorry, my word of the day...lol) is just a way for some people to try an romanticize and make themself and what they do 'better'... to give it some meaning, some importance. Probably due to the fact that BDSM has been ridiculed by 'outsiders' and fundementalists for so long.
Like smilezz, it is 'who I am and not what I give'(sorry to steal it... but it is so good - you need to copyright it!...lol).
I have said before and continue to say. What I do, and what I live needs no justification.
It, and I, just exist.

Peace and Love



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