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RE: Liberty - 4/14/2007 12:54:54 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

What is freedom?

How is it best achieved?

Feel free to discuss.



It is impossible for people to be truely free. Sartre wrestled with this problem and failed to find a solution. There are too many outside forces imposing upon us to make totally free decisions.We are moulded by our culture, our upbringing amd our environment. It is impossible to purge ourselves and remove these infuences.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
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RE: Liberty - 4/14/2007 1:41:14 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

You NG would be able to legally purchase a gun by just walking into a store and buying it without "asking" for permission.  If you use that gun to criminally violate another sovereignity then you lose that right.  



Real0ne,

What people need in this world is education, and badly. Not imposed from above. Just the personal responsibility that seems to be handed 'round on this board like white bread. There is obviously something not right with nations that are prepared to kill people thousands of miles away and fabricate evidence to garner support. It's staring people in the face - the only thing that will help the West is personal responsibility - the responsibility to say "that's not right, what is going on, tell you what I'll do a spot of investigating". That's all it takes, because 1 hour of research and it'll be as plain as day.

Guns, possessions etc - aren't going to help anyone. The government aren't going to give a flying one if someone is sat in their house with a bazooka as long as you don't go anywhere near them. Anyway, the government aren't even running the show these days - it's the financial markets, multinationals and the media, so you'll have to take them out first and foremost.

The problem is that people are drunk on shit items and shit television, and you can't kill everyone, so somehow these people are going to have to educate themselves to help themselves, and we're going full circle here because revolutions are borne out of the premise that he people need to be forced to be free.

So, what do you do:

1) Let the people drown in pop idol and hope they get their act together?
2) Fuck 'em, we're taking over and they'll thank us for it later?

I'm not giving an opinion on either, just interested in your views.



The answer of course is education, and i mean "real" education, not revisionist education as we have now that supports the way life is now.   The way life is now imo is not working, and is not for the people but for the few.

i am not sure how to tackle it aside from our court system, (here in the us), we are being the denied the opportunity to present the Law in our defense in court, there is a 2 and possibly even a 3 tier legal system that has developed in this country and unequal justice for all.

If we can get above this in court battles we can change it from within in a nonviolent manner, however if we cannot it goes without saying the country will at some point implode, and the boston tea party, revolutionary war, etc will repeat only this time in washington. 

The problem is also finding honest men, it is so about money now days and the self above all else that it is hard to imagine getting back to the roots of this constitution as people no longer have a clue what it really means and will frankly argue for what it turned into rather than what was its intent originally.  unfortunately thosse same people see liberty only extending to the right to chose which tv show to watch rather than in NTUY's excellent post Post #: 18 above with regard to how this applies to the big picture.

So education is the answer and is starts with bringing this to the public consciousness, for me it started with a friend of mine simply saying "you have to see that video on 911), researching that sent me on a myriad of paths most of which i did not like what i seen.  Even a buddy of mine who walked out of the room when i told him about 911 and the evidence is after thinking about it now, getting curious and asking questions, to my shock and dismay.

It has to be done by word of mouth, person to person, tell your friends to do their own research if they do not believe you because anyone seeking truth with come to at least similar conclusions if not the same.  Tell them to tell their friends, get the information that has been suppressed from us out in the open and get to as many as we can then watch the fur fly!  LOL

Things will change but only if we change it.  Things changed for me fast once i turned the news off and did my own analysis and it forced me to get educated in areas i could have gave a hoot before. 

i wont go into detail, and i certainly do not want to toot my horn here,  but i have already used some of what i have learned about sovereignty in dealing with local government here and i am shocked at the good results.   and we did not even have to go to court over it.

Education is key and should be mandatory in all school systems.  Not sure how that applies to the UK tho.



_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to NorthernGent)
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RE: Liberty - 4/14/2007 1:47:24 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

Because the moment we are born, we lose freedom.
Even those in the womb, have no freedom - choices are made for them.
 
 



Dark, I take your point. I'm a big believer that we are shaped by our environment, but we can manage our environment.

For example, we can keep an open mind, we can educate ourselves.

I think we are free providing we are prepared to put some effort into being free. Freedom has to be earned because if left to the people who run Britain, our minds would be owned by them.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to darkinshadows)
Profile   Post #: 23
RE: Liberty - 4/14/2007 1:48:43 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

What is freedom?

How is it best achieved?

Feel free to discuss.



It is impossible for people to be truely free. Sartre wrestled with this problem and failed to find a solution. There are too many outside forces imposing upon us to make totally free decisions.We are moulded by our culture, our upbringing amd our environment. It is impossible to purge ourselves and remove these infuences.



Meat what is wrong with this as being accepted as true freedom?

Black's Law Dictionary
(Sixth Edition)

LIBERTY. Freedom from restraint. The power of acting as one thinks fit, without any restraint or control, except from the laws of nature.

FREEDOM, Liberty; the right to do what is not forbidden by law. Freedom does not preclude the idea of subjection to law; indeed, it presupposes the existence of some legislative provision, the observance of which insures freedom to us, by securing the like observance from others. 2 Har. Cond. L. R. 208.

Thus the title Sovereign:

Black's Law Dictionary
(Sixth Edition)
It is the supreme power by which any citizen is governed and is the person or body of persons in the state to whom there is politically no superior. The necessary existence of the state and that right and power which necessarily follow is "sovereignty." By "sovereignty" in its largest sense is meant supreme, absolute, uncontrollable power, the absolute right to govern. The word which by itself comes nearest to being the definition of "sovereignty" is will or volition as applied to political affairs.



Self governed Sovereigns within a governing body of laws created and maintained by Sovereigns for Sovereigns.


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Liberty - 4/14/2007 1:56:55 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

What is freedom?

How is it best achieved?

Feel free to discuss.



It is impossible for people to be truely free. Sartre wrestled with this problem and failed to find a solution. There are too many outside forces imposing upon us to make totally free decisions.We are moulded by our culture, our upbringing amd our environment. It is impossible to purge ourselves and remove these infuences.


MC, Jean Paul Satre had a solution to freedom - wipe out bourgeois society. He believed we could be free, but only through violence. As per the Russian and French revolutions. Also, as per George Bush and Tony Blair - they come from the market society different angle of course, but it's the same concept i.e. we have to impose our view on people for those people to be free.

What would you do, MC - fuck it, let people die in ignorance? or takeover and do them a favour?

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: Liberty - 4/14/2007 3:40:55 PM   
luckydog1


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Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		Influenced would be a more appropriate word, and there are levels of influence. For example, is your mind as influenced as one of Pol Pot's foot soldiers who murdered the middle classes?   Yes, we are both 100% influenced.  Do you think you are less?  You seem to imply so.

Seeing as you're so adamant in these accusations, you'll be able to point to one of my posts where I've suggested freedom = correct thinking. Now's your chance, or are you just accusations and nothing of much substance?      Well you say,"For example, we are all free to obtain the information relating to detention without a trial laws, but we're not all free to understand its obstruction of civil liberties, and in particular the obstruction of that person's freedom."  I take this to mean people who conclude differently than you are not "free"  therefore not thinking correctly/as they should. 
 
Are you suggesting I did? Can you post where I suggested anything before 1950 doesn't matter?
We were talking about politics and I noted that the acts you keep refering to Iran, nicaragua ect all happened in the context of the cold war, adn you said pre 1950 doesn't matter.  I will not waste my time looking it up. 
 
If a person is concerned about the outside forces that influence him/her - for example, the media, government, the financial markets, and corporations - then, it is possible to investigate, understand what they are about and gauge their impact on your civil liberties. More knowledge = more freedom, the more a person understands, the more that person can make the right decision for him/her. There are levels of knowledge and levels of freedom.   This is subjective, yet you define those who conclude differently than you as less free and with less knowledge, sounds arrogant, and when combined with political power totalitarian.
 
What I also say is your government and military invading Iraq is denying people their liberty I disagree liberty and freedom is not always pretty, under the totalitarian dictatorship they had no liberty or chance to setermine thier own lives,  - their chance to determine their own lives - do you think your government denies people their freedom? Using the definition of it being a state of mind, no absolutly not, you can think any damn thing you want.  The system likes dissent, because it generates a lot of economic activity.  Does it limit some physical activities, of course all govs do.  Do it respect most economic and personal liberties, yes.  Is it perfect, of course not.

This is the question you really need to answer: Why because you say so?  But I will anyway.
1) Totalitarian regimes use violence as well as other means to supress some ideas, both home and abroad.  But that is not the defining charactaristic of totalitarianism The aim is to maintain power.  Usually it is to maintain power in furtherance of other Goals

2) The US government uses armed violence (or installs regimes who use armed violence)  in Iraq, Nicaragua, Venezuala, Brazil, Iran and more. Yes we supported some awful govs durring the cold war.  The leftists supported far worse govs that killed people by the millions. I understand you were opposed to the cold war.  You do not care about the millions dead in N Korea.  Just the thousands in Nicaragua.They also pass laws in the US to reduce the potential of mass protest e.g. Patriot Act etc  thats not what the patriot act does. Protest goes on all the time, there is no law against it.  Unlike places like N korea or Iran.  In Iraq there were mass protests just last week, (by Al sadrs people).  It is where the leftists rule that protest and speech is curtailedThe aim is to maintain power through economic gain and suppressing disobedience. That is a subjective (and in my opinion very simplistic) view, which I disagree with   .
Thus:

a) Can you point out the difference? Yes one side kills people by the millions to enforce a totalitarian rule, the other side has to use some force to preserve liberty.
b) If there is no difference, does this mean you have the same disdain for the US government as you do totalitarian regimes? There is a difference, so the question is moot.

You apperantly have more time than I to spend here, So I guess that means you win, you get the Gold star.

(in reply to missturbation)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Liberty - 4/14/2007 8:42:09 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
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Status: offline 		"Freedom is just another word for nothing left to lose."  Kris Kristofferson, Me and Bobby McGee
 
"Once you have lost everything, you are free to do anything"  Tyler Durden, Fight Club
 
On a serious note, I have difficulty with the idea that there is some perfect, utopian Freedom out there somewhere.

The universe is filled with limiting factors.  Gravity, Inertia, Friction, Laws of Thermodynamics, whatever. 

Then you have the idea that my freedom ends where your freedom begins.  This is another limiting factor.  Why the hell cant I be free to trample on your freedoms.  The point I am trying to make is not whether or not you have a right to your freedoms, my point is that this concept is a limiting factor on my own personal freedom.  In other words, my desire to limit my freedom is just that, a limit on my freedom.

Liberty and freedom, to me, are simply ideals which an imperfect species continually makes compromises to try to arrive at these ideals.

But that is just me, and I could be wrong.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


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RE: Liberty - 4/14/2007 9:45:53 PM   
Dtesmoac


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Joined: 6/22/2006
Status: offline 		An example of freedom and counter freedom

In a Bookshop in the USA today there were two books next to each other. One set forward why god exists according to scientific principles and evidence, next to it was another book that set out how god could not exist and used science as the basis. Selecting both books I could wander over and purchase coffee, or chocolate , or mocha or 20 other options, browse both books at my lesure and if I wanted purchase either, both or neither book.  Seems like a good example of freedom.............but wait......

.........this requires that I have been allowed to develope an open mind on this issue. Watching people looking at the books there were two clear camps. Each acted in a similar manner, they picked one book up and nodded, smiled and then picked up the other and treated it with disdain. The only difference between the groups was the order in which they picked up the books. 

My point is that freedom is elusive and the preconditioning of people affects how they act and so how much freedom they actually can and do use. Perhaps another constraint on freedom in that bookshop was that few people have the freedom of time to learn all they could before they decide what they think.....................!!

( & yes there were lots of other reactions to the books but the two groupings described above were fun to watch...and quite sizable in number)


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RE: Liberty - 4/14/2007 9:53:44 PM   
dovie


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Status: offline 		greetings NG, et.alia

i was going to pose this exact question after reading the other thread on "imperialism." excellent discussions!! my brain is getting fed and it likes that. ~smile~

my answer:  freedom is an illusion

be peace, be well
dovie

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gentle dove with 38's *the kind you shoot with*


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RE: Liberty - 4/14/2007 9:57:14 PM   
farglebargle


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Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		Freedom is a State of Mind.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: Liberty - 4/14/2007 10:02:11 PM   
luckydog1


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Status: offline 		Dtes, but they were allowed to develop an open mind, everyone (in the West has)has been.  No one will shoot you for reading certain books( with the exception of Child porn ect).  You can acces media from all over the world and viewpoints, if you want to.  Whether or not a person chooses to open thier mind to anyone elses subjective standard, is thier choice.  They also had the freedom to buy a book on cooking, history, Sports, scif, erotica, ect.  Or to do a million other things than go to a book shop.

You can be correct in that absolute freedom is not found in a bookstore.  I think we are all in agreement that "Absolute True Freedom" can not and has not and will not ever exist in this universe.  You will be subject to the Law of Gravity, if you have language your thoughts are shaped.  But the bookstore is a wonderfull example of social, economic, and poltical freedoms in action.  You may enter that bookstore, regardless of your class or race.  You get to decide where you want your capital to spent on the pro or anti evolution book or any of millions of other choices.  The bookstore can not be punished for ideas and can sell any boooks they want(excepting child porn).  The owner was able to attempt to realise his dream.  The consumers get to choose thier influences.  The community gets to influence the store.  The owner is free to suceed or fail in the manner of his choice.  These are real freedoms, which are denied to Billions of people today and most people in the past, and they are important.

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RE: Liberty - 4/14/2007 10:25:40 PM   
Dtesmoac


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Status: offline 		You may enter that bookstore, regardless of your class or race.  You get to decide where you want your capital to spent on the pro or anti evolution book or any of millions of other choices. 
But this again presupposes that you were raised to value knowledge and books or that at somepoint in your life you started to realise what wonder there is within the bookshop....... your freedom has been restricted, and you may never even realise it.

(NB the books were not on evolution / creationism but whether scientific data proved the existance or not of a god)

If you are lucky enough to live in a relatively "free" country then you have access to the bookshop but think of how many people you know that do not go in, or only read books on certain topics that they are interested in. When I return to the UK I am looking forward to comparing the types of subjects that get prminant display in UK and USA bookshops. Ok I'm a bit weird but I like getting alternative perspectives and views......even from the way books are displayed.

(in reply to luckydog1)
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RE: Liberty - 4/14/2007 10:29:19 PM   
tulipgoose


Posts: 112
Joined: 10/30/2004
Status: offline 		Freedom is only gained by having your soul captured by one with strong arms and eyes so powerful to make you cry in seconds, but kind enough to melt your heart, and mold it to theirs instead! - me


(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Liberty - 4/14/2007 10:37:34 PM   
luckydog1


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Status: offline 		Dtes, I do not think Freedom depends on making the right choice.  Yes, you have to be intterested in books to want to go buy a book as an adult.  Why is a person who does not like to read less free?  You Dtes obviously do value ideas and such( as do I, comparing book displays in various areas sounds interesting--to me, to others it muight be like watching paint dry).  But by what basis do you declare which view is more free, it sounds incredibly arrogant to me.  And when you combine correct thinking with political power, you get all sorts of attrocities.

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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Liberty - 4/15/2007 12:42:06 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1


2) The US government uses armed violence (or installs regimes who use armed violence)  in Iraq, Nicaragua, Venezuala, Brazil, Iran and more. Yes we supported some awful govs durring the cold war.  The leftists supported far worse govs that killed people by the millions. I understand you were opposed to the cold war.  You do not care about the millions dead in N Korea.  Just the thousands in Nicaragua.They also pass laws in the US to reduce the potential of mass protest e.g. Patriot Act etc  thats not what the patriot act does. Protest goes on all the time, there is no law against it.  Unlike places like N korea or Iran.  In Iraq there were mass protests just last week, (by Al sadrs people).  It is where the leftists rule that protest and speech is curtailedThe aim is to maintain power through economic gain and suppressing disobedience. That is a subjective (and in my opinion very simplistic) view, which I disagree with   .
Thus:

a) Can you point out the difference? Yes one side kills people by the millions to enforce a totalitarian rule, the other side has to use some force to preserve liberty.
b) If there is no difference, does this mean you have the same disdain for the US government as you do totalitarian regimes? There is a difference, so the question is moot.



Under no circumstances do I support imposing beliefs through force or coercion. I advocate self-education. On the other hand however, you do support the use of violence and force to impose your views as per the bit I've highlighted the other side has to use some force to preserve liberty.
 
All left-wing revolutions are built on the notion that force is necessary for liberty. You appear to be saying exactly the same thing. You believe in the same fundamental concept of the very people you are criticising - what justifies it in your mind is that they kill more than you and you have the right kind of liberty whereas they don't.

In other words, you are prepared to kill people because you know best. That is about the size of it. Now, you can say Stalin murdered at least 20 million people, which of course he did. You can bring up North Korea, or any other communist state - they are a waste of time here though because I don't support the policies of either regimes, so you would be throwing accusations around without any merit. Whatever you bring up, it doesn't change the fact that you are advocating killing people to give them your version of liberty.
 
a) What do you mean by liberty?
b) Why do you think you have the right idea of liberty and others do not?
c) Is killing people to impose your view of liberty akin to denying people their view of liberty?


 

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 4/15/2007 12:43:57 AM >

_____________________________

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Liberty - 4/15/2007 12:48:34 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Influenced would be a more appropriate word, and there are levels of influence. For example, is your mind as influenced as one of Pol Pot's foot soldiers who murdered the middle classes?   Yes, we are both 100% influenced.  Do you think you are less?  You seem to imply so.
 


I have to take my hat off to your honesty. There are not many who would admit on a public message board that he/she has the potential to be one of Pol Pot's foot soldiers - knowing that they slaughtered people.

Based on your answer above. Yes, I am less influenced than you. Regardless of my beliefs and any circumstances, I know for a fact there is not a scenario where I would attempt to impose my beliefs by force and coercion - unlike Pol Pot's foot soldiers.

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Seeing as you're so adamant in these accusations, you'll be able to point to one of my posts where I've suggested freedom = correct thinking. Now's your chance, or are you just accusations and nothing of much substance?      Well you say,"For example, we are all free to obtain the information relating to detention without a trial laws, but we're not all free to understand its obstruction of civil liberties, and in particular the obstruction of that person's freedom."  I take this to mean people who conclude differently than you are not "free"  therefore not thinking correctly/as they should. 
 


I'm not saying freedom is correct thinking, I'm saying freedom includes the ability to think and make decisions free from external factors which persuade the individual to make decisions which are inconsistent with their interests and freedom.

For example, in Britain, we have stop and search laws. As an individual, that is an invasion of my civil liberties - the very fact that someone can stop and search me for no apparent reason. It is an invasion of everyones' liberty. Those who accept these laws as necessary to prevent terrorism have been influenced by the climate of fear and the direction of an establishment. In other words, people are giving up their civil liberties on the basis of what they have been told to think. The conclusion is not important here - it is the fact that the thinking is being done for the decision maker.

The cold fact is this: 0.00001% of British Muslims have been convicted of terrorism. It is irrational to then claim it warrants the British people giving up our civil liberties. The decision is being made in contradiction to our interests and, ulitmately, the thinking is being done for us.



_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Liberty - 4/15/2007 1:06:55 AM   
luckydog1


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Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		No gent, bringing up other totaltiarian states is important, not because you support or dont them.  tis not an accusation of any sort.  But because they were a reality and expanding, the cold war.  We had to do things in response.  Becase we did fewer people live in slave states like N korea.  The places you bring up, all have elected governments.  After around 18 years they elected a Sandinista majority in nicaragua.  Totalitarians exist in the world and the USA is not one of them.  If we were you would be rousted from your nice little home in the country side and be shot NG, Blair is our bitch and does as we say, right?  Iran puts bounties on the heads of authors, this is who we are dealing with.  Left wing revolutions are not based on the use of force for liberty, but on the use of force to implement left wing ideology, which is always totalitarian.  You seem to exist in some nonsense moral universe.  Force is the reality of the world, it has always been so.  The issue is what do you use force for, and how it is exercised.   We are not killing anyone to make them accept our notion of liberty.  The Majority of the people of Iraq elected people to write a constitution.  A minority are fighting aginst it, with the help of outside powers.

"Under no circumstances do I support imposing beliefs through force or coercion. I advocate self-education."
Nonsense NG, we had a whole thread about whether people could be jailed for thier ideas and words(specifically a holocoust denyer), you said yes.  I said they had to cross into action.  You are not even arguing honestly.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
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RE: Liberty - 4/15/2007 1:09:56 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

Why the hell cant I be free to trample on your freedoms. 



Freedom with limits aimed at respecting society is the mark of a civilised society. Where would we be if we could not respect the rights of others? Probably Iraq, or Iran in the next month.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

Liberty and freedom, to me, are simply ideals which an imperfect species continually makes compromises to try to arrive at these ideals.



I can't believe there will ever be such a thing as perfection - human frailty etc.

Surely there are various ideas on what constitutes freedom though? The ability to choose? Self-possession? etc

If the ideas are fluid, then will the ideas develop as our human knowledge increases?

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Liberty - 4/15/2007 1:19:31 AM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		I have to take my hat off to your honesty. There are not many who would admit on a public message board that he/she has the potential to be one of Pol Pot's foot soldiers - knowing that they slaughtered people.  Where did I do that?  That is not what you asked.  So you think you have a less influenced mind, I guess that is your perception.  You do have to of course resort to stupid rhetoricall games to make your points, such as the one I just quoted.  Perhaps you should allow your mind to be influenced by Logic and Critical Thinking( which does not mean hating the system).
 
Your example of the stop and search laws is excellent.  The majority choose and prioritise differently than you so they are less free than you.  They are choosing wrong, hence less free in their incorrect thinking.  The stop and search laws are not only for muslim terrorists, they stop gang violence, and general thugs.  There has been an amazing rise in streetviolence over there from what I see on TV, and it realy affects some people, perhaps not you.  You Brits go for a huge amount of cameras all over also, right?  But your majority chooses that stuff.  That is freedom, the price of living in a society.

(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Liberty - 4/15/2007 1:29:52 AM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

The issue is what do you use force for, and how it is exercised.  



I understood your issue first time 'round.

The question remains: what is so special about you that means you are the one to decide when force is necessary? Do you have the only answer? Are you right and others are wrong?

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

"Under no circumstances do I support imposing beliefs through force or coercion. I advocate self-education."
Nonsense NG, we had a whole thread about whether people could be jailed for thier ideas and words(specifically a holocoust denyer), you said yes.  I said they had to cross into action.  You are not even arguing honestly.



My point of view was: it is not as black and white as appears at first light - what is the catalyst for violence, is it thought or is it action? I don't recall saying people should be jailed, I said it is not as black and white as saying everyone should be allowed to say whatever they want to whomever they want.

I'll concede I'm re-evaluating my thoughts on this matter.

You are not arguing honestly - you have more front than Blackpool after all the misquoting and accusations you've made.



_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 40
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