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RE: Liberty - 4/15/2007 1:45:02 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Your example of the stop and search laws is excellent.  The majority choose and prioritise differently than you so they are less free than you.  They are choosing wrong, hence less free in their incorrect thinking.  The stop and search laws are not only for muslim terrorists, they stop gang violence, and general thugs. 
 


Civil liberties is inconsistent with unwarranted government interference.

Add the number of gangs and general thugs to the British muslim terrorists and they'll make up anywhere upto 10% of the population. Yet the whole of society has to be subjected to these stop and search laws.

We have had women walking dogs being stopped and searched, and kids on bikes - take a look at Real0ne's thread on the London bombings. Also, it is a fact that an 80 years old bloke voicing his disapproval of the government was forcibly removed from the building. Today an 80 years old bloke, then who? teachers, because they don't believe in privatising education, nurses because they don't believe in downsizing hospitals?

The point remains: unwarranted government interference in our lives is denying people their freedom and some people can't see this. If their privacy is abused by stop and search laws, then they may change their minds.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

There has been an amazing rise in streetviolence over there from what I see on TV, and it realy affects some people, perhaps not you.  You Brits go for a huge amount of cameras all over also, right?  But your majority chooses that stuff.  That is freedom, the price of living in a society.



Your point is based on what I've highlighted. So, if the TV tells you that, is that it? It must be right? This is what I mean when saying some people are more influenced than others, and some make more of an effort to be free in terms of independent thought. Street violence may have increased for all I know, but that's not the point. You're taking it for granted because the TV is telling you that's the case, then you're forming opinions/support for policy around the TV report.

If you watch one TV report and then form policies around it, I would argue that you're not putting forward a balanced view of the world, nor independent thought.

And this leads us back to the OP - is freedom the ability to choose, or is it the ability to think free from external influence?

Edited for spelling.

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 4/15/2007 1:47:31 AM >

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Liberty - 4/15/2007 1:51:51 AM   
seeksfemslave


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Status: offline 		edited
quote:

from luckydog
speaking of NG.....
What he refers to as "freedom" means more akin to correct thinking.  There is a huge level of arrogance in it also.  Others are brianwashed robots , but HE, and those in agreement, sees the truth.  But based on what?  The correct left wing ideology? 


Absolutely spot on.
Posting this doesnt add anything to the discussion but is so accurate I felt it needed repeating.
Thats why I characterised NG, with no personal animosity whatsoever, as an authoritarian Liberal.
Hopefully NG you will begin to recognise this tendency in your polititical outlook. You never will if you only exchange opinions with like minded souls on the Manchester City Council. lol


I feel so good after that  I am going to sing a little song....
If I can help somebody as a I pass along
Then my living has not been in vain.

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 4/15/2007 1:53:02 AM >

(in reply to missturbation)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Liberty - 4/15/2007 2:01:58 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Thats why I characterised NG, with no personal animosity whatsoever, as an authoritarian Liberal.



No personal animosity taken, Seeks. I fully appreciate that you've a heart of gold and you're simply helping people along their way with your wisdom.

I'm curious though, last month I was a commie-socialist. The month before, I was a PC-liberal. The month before that I was an orthodox unreconstructed socialist. The month before that I was a New Labour, Blair loving, PC-leftist. I'm now an authoritarian liberal. Can you let me know in advance what I'll be next month, so I can prepare for it?

Do you have anything to add to the OP?

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 4/15/2007 2:26:48 AM >

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Liberty - 4/15/2007 2:20:15 AM   
NorthernGent


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Status: offline 		Real0ne, I fully agree that education is the answer, but are the odds too heavily stacked in favour of the establishment? Is their wealth, power and media advantage just too much to allow a mass movement to grow and change the balance?

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Liberty - 4/15/2007 3:00:49 AM   
luckydog1


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Status: offline 		I was using "saw it on TV" as a general phrase for the media.  I get most of my news on the Net.  And its not based on me seeing one report, thats just you throwng an insult.  It is a real phenomenom backed by crime stats.  To the victims and people in fear of the street violence it s a very big deal.  You have a democratic society.  The parliment chose to install the cameras and increase the stop and search laws.  You say the people are stupid/wrong thinking/ incorrect/not free in thought because they chose differntly than you.  You clealry accept that in a society people must accept constraints.  This is one of them.   Most Brits want stop and search laws.  They choose to value the right to be safe walking to the market over the right of people to not be searched.  
Freedom is the ability to make choices.  Un influenced thought is simply impossible.  We are all 100% influenced.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Liberty - 4/15/2007 4:39:06 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

I was using "saw it on TV" as a general phrase for the media.  I get most of my news on the Net.  And its not based on me seeing one report, thats just you throwng an insult.  It is a real phenomenom backed by crime stats.  To the victims and people in fear of the street violence it s a very big deal.  You have a democratic society.  The parliment chose to install the cameras and increase the stop and search laws.  You say the people are stupid/wrong thinking/ incorrect/not free in thought because they chose differntly than you.  You clealry accept that in a society people must accept constraints.  This is one of them.   Most Brits want stop and search laws.  They choose to value the right to be safe walking to the market over the right of people to not be searched.  
Freedom is the ability to make choices.  Un influenced thought is simply impossible.  We are all 100% influenced.


Your original quote: there has been an amazing rise in street violence over there from what I see on TV
 
Followed by your quote above: it is a real phenomenon backed by crime stats
 
According to the British Crime Survey issued by the Home Office, you are wide of the mark. Now, I'm not in the know with these matters in terms of the accuracy of the data, but this information contradicts your TV sources.

Link and quote:

http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/about-us/news/crime-stats-summer

British Crime Survey
Statistics from the BCS Quarterly Update to June 2006 show:

overall crime stable
violent crime stable
all personal crime stable
domestic burglary stable
vehicle thefts down 6%
vandalism stable.
Recorded Crime Statistics
The Recorded Crime Statistics show a small increase in some crimes in the 12 months to June 2006. Overall their figures indicate:

total recorded crime down 2%
overall violent crime stable
domestic burglary down 4%
other burglary down 5%
firearm offences down 8%
vehicle crime stable
other thefts down 6%
robbery up 5%
drug offences up 16%
Do you see my point about jumping to conclusions. Best to keep an open mind and form a balanced view. You are agreeing with policies impeding civil liberties based on your view that there is "an amazing increase in street crime". The stats above do not support this. Yet, you've made your mind up and you then claim the available stats support your position. This smacks of forming an opinion based on TV sources and then hoping/claiming that the stats support your view. The point remains: some people are more easily influenced than others.

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Most Brits want stop and search laws. 



What do you mean by most Brits - 51%, 99%? - and how do you know?

Stop and Search is part of the anti-terrorism bill. In a vote on the bill in 2005, it was opposed by Liberal Democrats MPs and many Labour MPs, but supported by Conservative MPs in the Houses of Parliament. In 2005, the terrorism bill was backed by a majority of 1. So, I think it's pretty much in the balance.

Either way, Stop and Search laws effectively means the Prime Minister decides who is deemed to be of sufficient concern to be stopped and searched and who isn't. Britain is the only nation in Europe which has suspended article 5 of the European Human Rights Convention which upholds the democratic principle of trial by jury. Since when did trial by dictator become entrenched in individual liberty?

In other words, anyone protesting the government can be cracked down on by the government, as per these people:

http://www.williambowles.info/spysrus/detained.html

In terms of what this means for the OP:

1) Freedom is not a situation where the government pass law that enable the government to crack down on citizens protesting their policies.

2) These laws are designed to restrict freedom, not achieve it.

3) If we allow the government to decide when and whom to stop and search, regardless of our actions, I would argue that we are not free because we have defered excessive control to them - and it is different to the rule of law. The rule of law = trial by jury, stop and search and detention without a trial = trail by dicator. It follows that to allow this situation to happen we are too easily influenced by propaganda such as the climate of fear. Those who oppose the bill are less easily influenced than others, and I would argue have a better grasp of liberty and freedom.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Liberty - 4/15/2007 4:50:13 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		The truth of the matter surely is that there are no absolute Freedoms or definitions of Justice. That is why over the years so much wickedness has been carried out by people who thought that they were being perfectly reasonable, or righting wrongs,its just that the opposition cant see that....therefore strong measures are required.

That society will be the freest and most just IMO when access to law making is spread as widely as possible.
It should absolutely be possible for any Law to be put to  a referendum
Likewise potential laws could be suggested by a popular mandate.. Some consideration would have to be given to limit one issue idealogues raising the same questions over and over again.
I'm speaking here about laws that have social consequences, immigration, crime, education, welfare provision. UK membersip of the European Community.

I actually believe that Blair could have got support for the Iraq invasion, and if the situation as it is today were more accurately reported he would not be the subject of so much criticism. about Iraq anyway !

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 4/15/2007 4:52:08 AM >

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RE: Liberty - 4/15/2007 5:26:48 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

The truth of the matter surely is that there are no absolute Freedoms or definitions of Justice.



Agreed, but there are degrees of what is reasonable when talking about freedom.

For example, if Tony Blair walks into my house tomorrow and frogmarches me down to the local nick and locks me up for the next 25 years, purely for the crime of arguing with LuckyDog that 51% is different to 99%, then it's fair to say that I'm not free. I'm sure we could all agree on that.

Where it gets a bit tricky is when politics comes into it, and opinions are shaped by background. We are subject to the environmental factors of place of birth, parents, friends etc - the trick is to attempt to step outside of that and keep an open mind, particularly being prepared to consider the unpalatable.

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

That is why over the years so much wickedness has been carried out by people who thought that they were being perfectly reasonable, or righting wrongs,its just that the opposition cant see that....therefore strong measures are required.



I don't get your "therefore strong measures are required", can you put some meat on the bones, Seeks?

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

That society will be the freest and most just IMO when access to law making is spread as widely as possible.
It should absolutely be possible for any Law to be put to  a referendum



Representation for all? Pretty much the corner-stone of left-wing "idealism". Anyway, in theory we have representation for all through elected MPs (although tempered by having a second chamber made up of appointed bishops, lords and hereditary peers).

I can't see an argument for putting every bill to the people because nothing would get done. The trick is to elect genuinely democratic people and manage them on an election basis. 50% of us don't vote Seeks, so no amount of putting bills to the people will give us the democracy that we appear to be turning away from.

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Some consideration would have to be given to limit one issue idealogues raising the same questions over and over again.
I'm speaking here about laws that have social consequences, immigration, crime, education, welfare provision. UK membersip of the European Community.



You want to restrict what is raised in Parliament? Sounds a touch dangerous, and why exactly do people who believe in social justice have to be labelled ideologues? Maybe they're humanitarians who put life above money - sounds like common sense values to me, not ideology.

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

I actually believe that Blair could have got support for the Iraq invasion, and if the situation as it is today were more accurately reported he would not be the subject of so much criticism. about Iraq anyway !



Have you spent some time in Iraq to gauge what is accurate reporting and what is not?

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Liberty - 4/15/2007 8:08:24 AM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
is freedom the ability to choose, or is it the ability to think free from external influence?


Freedom, i prefer liberty, is strictly the ability choose within the boundaries of not violating anothers liberties.  The rain the sun the moon and of course people all serve to influence us.

The ability to think wont be a problem till they come up with a way to implant thoughts.  They wont need to develope it unless the price spinning in the media becomes to expensive.

Everything has boundaries and the point is to be capable of exercizing ones liberties within those boundaries freely and without infringement or impairment, and unencumbered by government.   That is the most one can expect from any civilized government, how ever that is not the case, everything here in the us is encumbered and impaired. literally!

Idealistically there is not such thing as seeks points out, however pragmatically there is.   i believe its all about having the widest possible boundaries set in place as not to restrict those who wish to exercise it to the fullest.  UNfortunately it is profitable to feed the lowest common denominator and restrict liberty, especially when peoples fears and insecurities are played upon.


< Message edited by Real0ne -- 4/15/2007 8:25:05 AM >

_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Liberty - 4/15/2007 11:11:46 AM   
luckydog1


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Status: offline 		In other words, anyone protesting the government can be cracked down on by the government, as per these people:

http://www.williambowles.info/spysrus/detained.html

I guess if you lie about what is going on you can make that point.  If you stick with reality, it doesn't pan out.  Breaking into millitary bases is illegal, protesting outside them is not.  If I felt like protesting you, could I break into your home with a weopon, and start vandalizing stuff?  I don't think so, but you do.  Or does correct thinking say its ok to tresspass and vandalize only others(non left wingers?)?

The statisitcs you give list a 5%increase in Robbery and Drug crime, ie street crime,  I did not make a general claim about crime in genereal.  Crime in general has absolutly gone down since your society started putting cameras everywhere and giving Cops more powers, in the 90s.  But street violence is up in recent years.  51% 99% makes no difference, Its still a  majority of your elected representatives.  Elect a new majority and repeal the laws, if you have the majority.  The democrats run the senate in the USA by one vote also, does that make them illegitimate?  Of course not.  Are you arguing that Senate majority leader Reid has no legitimacy since he has a 1 vote majority?  I do not like him, but he is the legal Majority leader, and has the right to run the senate.

What it basically boils down to for you is that that majority voted wrong, hence they are not free.
No law was passed to stop protest.  The penalties for trespassing were raised.  You seem to have the same sort of view as real one, that if you do not get Your way, you are not free, regardless of what society democraticly decides. 

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RE: Liberty - 4/15/2007 12:29:03 PM   
darkinshadows


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quote:

And this leads us back to the OP - is freedom the ability to choose, or is it the ability to think free from external influence?

Freedom is being free or at liberty instead of confinement or restraint.
Therefore, freedom is not achievable.  It does not exist.  It is a state of mind, yet does not contain any subtance.  Everyone is obligated, even if it is to themselves.  There is no exemption. No independance. No real autonomy, only belief of it.
And one can never think without the ability of external influences.  Even as babies we are influenced as we grow.  Our speach depends upon it.  Our thoughts.  Our fears.
 
Kinda depressing huh?
 
 
 

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RE: Liberty - 4/15/2007 2:13:19 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

In other words, anyone protesting the government can be cracked down on by the government, as per these people:

http://www.williambowles.info/spysrus/detained.html

I guess if you lie about what is going on you can make that point.  If you stick with reality, it doesn't pan out.  Breaking into millitary bases is illegal, protesting outside them is not.  If I felt like protesting you, could I break into your home with a weopon, and start vandalizing stuff?  I don't think so, but you do.  Or does correct thinking say its ok to tresspass and vandalize only others(non left wingers?)?

The statisitcs you give list a 5%increase in Robbery and Drug crime, ie street crime,  I did not make a general claim about crime in genereal.  Crime in general has absolutly gone down since your society started putting cameras everywhere and giving Cops more powers, in the 90s.  But street violence is up in recent years.  51% 99% makes no difference, Its still a  majority of your elected representatives.  Elect a new majority and repeal the laws, if you have the majority.  The democrats run the senate in the USA by one vote also, does that make them illegitimate?  Of course not.  Are you arguing that Senate majority leader Reid has no legitimacy since he has a 1 vote majority?  I do not like him, but he is the legal Majority leader, and has the right to run the senate.

What it basically boils down to for you is that that majority voted wrong, hence they are not free.
No law was passed to stop protest.  The penalties for trespassing were raised.  You seem to have the same sort of view as real one, that if you do not get Your way, you are not free, regardless of what society democraticly decides. 


that was several examples and you chose to spin one out of 30 of them?   of course it is illegal to trespass always has been i would never defend the one instance where those people were tresspassing....  LOL  

That and you might want to take notice i posted that in regard to britain "not" the us   LMFAO


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Liberty - 4/15/2007 3:01:45 PM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
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Status: offline 		Spin one out of 30?  ???  I stated the facts about the link NG posted, wasn't even talking to you real

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Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Liberty - 4/15/2007 7:23:57 PM   
Sinergy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

There has been an amazing rise in streetviolence over there from what I see on TV, and it realy affects some people, perhaps not you.  You Brits go for a huge amount of cameras all over also, right?  But your majority chooses that stuff.  That is freedom, the price of living in a society.



Your point is based on what I've highlighted. So, if the TV tells you that, is that it? It must be right? This is what I mean when saying some people are more influenced than others, and some make more of an effort to be free in terms of independent thought. Street violence may have increased for all I know, but that's not the point. You're taking it for granted because the TV is telling you that's the case, then you're forming opinions/support for policy around the TV report.



The most complete police / crime statistics in the United States, for the longest period of time, are the crime files of the New York Police Department.  These go back to the 19th century.

When this information is broken down into statistical samplings, and correlated with population trends, what ends up spitting out the other end is the fact that there is some percentage (dont know the number of the top of my hand) of criminals for every X number of people.

In other words, if you have a population of 1000 people, 10 of them are criminals.  If you have a population of 1,000,000 people, 10,000 of them are criminals.  Statistically, this does not really indicate that crime is increasing.  Might just be that population is increasing.

I was reading something which made the point that while overall crime statistics went up in since 1990, violent crime statistics actually went down.  In other words, if 4 out of every 100 crimes in 1990 were violent, 3 out of every 100 crimes was violent in 2000.

Where I am going with this is that I have seen a definite attempt by the current administration to inculcate the population with the idea that we should all be afraid of (Al Qaeda, Homosexual marraige, rock and roll, Saddam Hussein, Democrats) the Boogie Man.  What follows after we are all afraid of the Boogie Man is the administration offers to keep us safe PROVIDED we are willing to give up our civil liberties; guns, habeas corpus, wearing our own shoes through airport checkpoints, whatever.

I dont agree.  I love my country but I fear my government.

Sinergy

_____________________________

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(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Liberty - 4/15/2007 10:30:33 PM   
Real0ne


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Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Spin one out of 30?  ???  I stated the facts about the link NG posted, wasn't even talking to you real


In other words, anyone protesting the government can be cracked down on by the government, as per these people: snip  The penalties for trespassing were raised.  You seem to have the same sort of view as real one, that if you do not get Your way, you are not free, regardless of what society democraticly decides. 

(in reply to Real0ne)

Ah... So you ever gonna get the hang of using standard posting conventions in these complicated forums?


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Liberty - 4/16/2007 12:33:05 PM   
dovie


Posts: 1211
Status: offline 		greetings,

back and agrees with farglebargle ("Freedom is a State of Mind." farglebargle) .... will add my opinion that any idea that freedom exists outside of that definition is an illusion. 

Sinergy pointed out what has happened here in America. imo, it is an example of how we, here in America have traded one illusion for another.

{"Where I am going with this is that I have seen a definite attempt by the current administration to inculcate the population with the idea that we should all be afraid of (Al Qaeda, Homosexual marraige, rock and roll, Saddam Hussein, Democrats) the Boogie Man.  What follows after we are all afraid of the Boogie Man is the administration offers to keep us safe PROVIDED we are willing to give up our civil liberties; guns, habeas corpus, wearing our own shoes through airport checkpoints, whatever." Sinergy}

i've read all the responses and one can really go down the rabbit hole on this one. who is really free? sans madness of course and no, i don't want to discuss my ideas on "madness."

my humble apologies as i am learning how to use the quote features on the boards. is there a way to transfer multiple quotes in a single response? i wanted to respond admirably to Vendeval and her comments about freedom as an "abstract concept" in this post too.

excellent discussions! thank you. one is never to old or too edumacated to learn eh?

be peace, be well,
dovie

_____________________________

"Sometimes love is a nice long lick!"

gentle dove with 38's *the kind you shoot with*


(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Liberty - 4/16/2007 1:08:56 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

In other words, anyone protesting the government can be cracked down on by the government, as per these people:

http://www.williambowles.info/spysrus/detained.html

I guess if you lie about what is going on you can make that point.  If you stick with reality, it doesn't pan out.  Breaking into millitary bases is illegal, protesting outside them is not.  If I felt like protesting you, could I break into your home with a weopon, and start vandalizing stuff?  I don't think so, but you do.  Or does correct thinking say its ok to tresspass and vandalize only others(non left wingers?)?



The point is, they are facing jail charges of a year. Does two old women walking over a line warrant that? or are the government abusing their power and sending out a warning that anyone protesting the government will be dealt with in a severe manner i.e. the punishment will exceed the crime. Fine, escort them off the site, but jail for a year? - seems draconian to me.

The old bloke thrown out of the party conference for voicing his disapproval of the government policy - the government abusing their position to quell disobedience.


quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

The statisitcs you give list a 5%increase in Robbery and Drug crime, ie street crime,



There were other crimes on that list that you could just as easily categorise as street crime, but you use the only two that actually went up to support your claim that "street crime has seen an amazing increase".

The majority of drugs offences could easily involve more raids on homes than drugs been sold on the street.
Firearm offences, down 8% - I would say these are likely to be on the street.
Vehicle crime, stable - cars are on the street.

The only conclusion to be drawn is that you are not objective in your conclusions.

quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1

51% 99% makes no difference,



As we're agreed there's a balance of 1 - would you agree that there is a balance of fors and againsts? Guessing there are 400 MPS, would you say 200 v 199 means British thinking on the matter is inconslusive?


_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Liberty - 4/16/2007 1:11:06 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy

Where I am going with this is that I have seen a definite attempt by the current administration to inculcate the population with the idea that we should all be afraid of (Al Qaeda, Homosexual marraige, rock and roll, Saddam Hussein, Democrats) the Boogie Man.  What follows after we are all afraid of the Boogie Man is the administration offers to keep us safe PROVIDED we are willing to give up our civil liberties; guns, habeas corpus, wearing our own shoes through airport checkpoints, whatever.




This is about the size of it. Spot on.

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 4/16/2007 1:14:39 PM >

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Liberty - 4/16/2007 2:36:18 PM   
Real0ne


Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dovie

greetings,

back and agrees with farglebargle ("Freedom is a State of Mind." farglebargle) .... will add my opinion that any idea that freedom exists outside of that definition is an illusion. 



in the final analysis everything known or possibly known to man is a state of mind.


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to dovie)
Profile   Post #: 59
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