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Throwaway Qualities in Subs - 4/24/2005 12:15:02 PM   
AAkasha


Posts: 4429
Joined: 11/27/2004
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As a femdom, I ask potential submissives what their best qualities are. I'm sure other femdoms have done the same thing, and probably see what I have seen over and over and over again. Some combination of these words:

OBEDIENT
LOYAL
HONEST

I think femdoms have read these words so much (and had them be empty promises so often) that our eyes glaze over and it doesn't even register any more. I think subs should try to find new words, or better yet, describe things you have done that demonstrate those qualities.

Also, subs, consider what you are really saying. What value is it to the femdom, and how honest are you being about it?

Obedient -- yeah, what submissive isn't? That's pretty much a main part of submission. And, you are not offering total obedience (no sane person would), you are offering conditional obedience. Nothing wrong with that. But how does obedience come across in your character? Does it mean you jump to it, "YES MISTRESS!" with enthusiasm, questioning nothing? See, for me, I don't like robotic submission. Obedience? Doesn't mean anything to me -- I want a sub with a spine and a realistic outlook. Obedience is not a word he'd use with someone he just met.

Loyal -- Ok, so what does that mean? This is especially interesting when coming from a submissive who is married and doesn't tell his wife. How is that for a demonstration of "loyalty." And what does loyalty mean over email to a woman you have never met? Are you saying you will commit to her and be 100% faithful? You can offer that up? Again, the word is empty -- you need to give examples of it, and also be realistic. Subs just grab these words because they think femdoms want to hear it, and they really don't *mean* it. And, in my experience an online sub/sub in courting mode is only as loyal as he needs to be to keep his foot in the door. If another femdom comes along and courts him, he'd be two-timing until he found out which one would pan out. Don't say you are loyal unless you mean it, and state when that loyalty starts.

Honest -- Again, back to "loyal". How many subs who say they are honest end up lying about something or omitting information? Can you give examples of situations where you were honest to a fault? Are you going to be honest enough to say you don't like something, or to set limits? Not to agree with everything your potential femdom says, just to win her favor? And what if honesty clashes with "submission" -- what if being honest means you can't be obedient, then where are you? What if your femdom says, "I want to be the submissive now -- forever. Your turn. Dominate me" -- can you be honest and tell her no, it's not in your character, while also being obedient?

My suggestion is that subs learn some new words to describe their qualities, and include ones that are not just synonyms for "submissive" because you think that's what we want to hear. What about creative, intuitive, sensual, mischeivious, playful, unpredictable. Or some more descriptions to explain what the hell you really mean, for example, "I'm compliant, but sometimes need to be pushed."

Also, when you use those words, consider whether you honestly mean them as absolutes, or if they are conditional to your relationship with the person you are courting.

Akasha


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RE: Throwaway Qualities in Subs - 4/24/2005 12:20:49 PM   
siamsa24


Posts: 2426
Joined: 2/2/2004
Status: offline 		I love this, would you mind if I printed it out and discussed it in my next group meeting?

(in reply to AAkasha)
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RE: Throwaway Qualities in Subs - 4/24/2005 2:30:47 PM   
goodhouseboy


Posts: 23
Joined: 4/19/2005
Status: offline 		how does obedience come across in my character?
as a houseboy slave, i am always obedient. it is why i have never been punished or disciplied...i have enough life experience i know how to do what needs done and do not need or want a sidewalk supervisor.
when does loyalty start?...
when she puts that collar on and states she actually wants me in Her life..and means it,..not just until she finds out i have a mind of my own and know how to speak my mind, so she says she can't handle it and says it is time to go coz she ain't able to handle a full grown man.
honest?
i am so honest it hurts. i have not told a lie since i was about 8 years old. it is against my values/morals/principles/and convictions. it would bring shame on me and my family name.!!
i never need to be pushed to do anything. i know how to set my own pace and proved it for 15 months in calif. with my 1st Ms in real time. i am so good at my task, i was caught up with everything that could be done, i was out of things to keep me busy when i left...and i left because She is in ill health and has Her #1 boy there, and wanted to be grandma to kids that didn't know whom she was.

my problem is when are the Ms.' going to be open and honest and stop hiding things?
when do the Ms.' stop pretending they are real when there are game players out there?
when do the Ms become 100% loyal keep a boy even when ideas/ideals are not eye to eye? is there a Ms out there that can handle a boy that is a full grown man, able to do anything he puts his mind to, with life experience to back it up, and not some inexperienced young kid looking for thrills?

i need to find 'a' Ms. that is as real life as "I" am,...but it would SEEM so far, since 2001,..only 1 woman has been able to do that....not very good odds as i see it!!!

thanks for my 3 cents here.
houseboy

(in reply to AAkasha)
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RE: Throwaway Qualities in Subs - 4/24/2005 2:55:00 PM   
LdyAuburn


Posts: 179
Joined: 5/9/2004
Status: offline
quote:

when she puts that collar on and states she actually wants me in Her life..and means it,..not just until she finds out i have a mind of my own and know how to speak my mind, so she says she can't handle it and says it is time to go coz she ain't able to handle a full grown man.
honest?

Have you considered that you are 'too much' you come across as very intense and demanding. You expect things to be your way or not at all. For example re your service, the dominant you are serving might like the dishes washed up first you might 'know' that one washes the glasses first.


by the by did you used to post similar comments under a different nick?


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RE: Throwaway Qualities in Subs - 4/24/2005 3:00:04 PM   
LdyAuburn


Posts: 179
Joined: 5/9/2004
Status: offline 		And back on topic
Submissives I have found, massive generalisation here males for the most part, tend to be very wafty in their expression of what they will do.
eg "I will do anything except clean the house, wash windows and you want me to do that????"
Something I have found handy in the past was to get them to tell me tangible skills, eg woodmaking, cooking etc. For such things as loyal, obedient, they are so incredible qualified as to when they are loyal and obedient, as you say Akasha the words tend to lose their impact



(in reply to LdyAuburn)
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RE: Throwaway Qualities in Subs - 4/24/2005 3:20:15 PM   
EmeraldSlave2


Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		This is one of the reasons I think asking a question like that right off is pointless. While it's interesting to hear how one responds to that, you have to know more of their personality to understand the context in which they are answering and to be able to assess on your own side how realistic their perspective is.

(in reply to LdyAuburn)
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RE: Throwaway Qualities in Subs - 4/24/2005 3:21:05 PM   
CTclay


Posts: 123
Joined: 11/6/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Have you considered that you are 'too much' you come across as very intense and demanding. You expect things to be your way or not at all.


I didn't get the impression goodhouseboy came across that way at all. I think an uncollared submissive should be able to state views strongly (intensely) on a message board without his submissiveness being called into question. I don't see anything about his post that indicates he is demanding. In fact, he strikes me as very committed.

Not to criticize, Lady Auburn, but one reason some submissives may hold back about giving information about themselves is the worry that some dominants will jump to conclusions before the dominant gets to know the submissive. If I were communicating with a domme as we explored whether or not we wanted to meet, I wouldn't use the tone goodhouseboy did, but probably he wouldn't use it in that circumstance either. But on a message board, I'm glad he's more free to express a wider range of emotions. I think encouraging that is generally good for those of us reading the boards.


(in reply to LdyAuburn)
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RE: Throwaway Qualities in Subs - 4/24/2005 3:33:05 PM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		I don't exactly agree with the OP. Those words mean what they mean, and if people use them to describe themselves, it isn't really their fault that the rest of the world has taken a big crap all over those words.

I look for two things only: honesty and obedience. I don't look for mischievous, playful, intuitive, or unpredictable. If all that describes what someone is, fine. But if they're not also honest and obedient, it isn't going to work.

Lam

(in reply to AAkasha)
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RE: Throwaway Qualities in Subs - 4/24/2005 3:49:57 PM   
CTclay


Posts: 123
Joined: 11/6/2004
Status: offline
quote:

My suggestion is that subs learn some new words to describe their qualities, and include ones that are not just synonyms for "submissive" because you think that's what we want to hear. What about creative, intuitive, sensual, mischeivious, playful, unpredictable. Or some more descriptions to explain what the hell you really mean, for example, "I'm compliant, but sometimes need to be pushed."

Also, when you use those words, consider whether you honestly mean them as absolutes, or if they are conditional to your relationship with the person you are courting.


Thank you for this great advice, Aakasha (your posts show you have a lot of it).

I try to do some of what you mention in my profile, but now I think I want to revise it a bit along the lines of what you brought up.

A lot of these questions get answered in the getting-to-know-you phase, though, and I think there may be some danger of miscommunication. For instance, a sub may bring up something and merely by bringing it up, a dominant can assume the subject may be more important to the submissive than it is. I like to bring up some things in instant messages or phone conversations, or, best of all, in person, because if the domme takes it the wrong way, I can make myself clearer.

In conversation, dominants can ask more specific questions about what they want to understand better about the submissive, and generally, I think, that's the best way to learn. Well, the best way is really by observation over time.

I find when I'm in these conversations, I tend to do a lot of questioning to draw the dominant out. If I ask in general what the most important qualities the dominant is looking for in a submissive, I'll sometimes get replies like: "Obedience, loyalty and honesty." Then I have to draw out the dominant more to see what she means by this. Has she had problems in the past with disobedient submissives? Disloyal ones? What does loyalty involve for her? (Loyalty can definitely have different implications, depending on the dominant.)

Then I try to talk about what something like obedience has meant to me in my past relationships. Actually, I think the more obedient a submissive is, the simpler obedience is to talk about. This generally gets us talking about my limits (the extent of my obedience), and her limits. I tend to be very chatty, so these conversations may be easier for me than for others, but I think they're necessary. I also think they go better when the dominant actively probes with questions. I certainly actively probe with questions at this stage.

Aakasha, I assume you find that some submissives are uncommunicative in these conversations. Am I right? Or are you just referring to initial emails from submissives and their profiles?


(in reply to AAkasha)
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RE: Throwaway Qualities in Subs - 4/24/2005 4:32:26 PM   
kyakitten


Posts: 145
Joined: 11/21/2004
Status: offline 		Aakasha,

I agree with your underlying point that the more descriptive and thoughtful characterizations are, the more helpful they are (from a sub's standpoint as well as a domina's), but I don't agree that the words in question don't have value.

First off, the recipient hears what the writer values - or what they think a domina should value, either of which gives you a clue as to their priorities.

Second, the recipient gets a clue that (in your opinion) they aren't too good at describing themselves, which may in turn be a clue that they aren't self-aware enough or may not possess sufficient vocabulary or imagination to suit you.

Third, they may well be honest, loyal, or obedient a majority of the time without being that in all circumstances. One can possess - or strive towards - a characteristic without having or showing it 100% of the time. For example, I'm naturally introverted but often exhibit behavior that's perceived as outgoing. This makes me neither extroverted nor dishonest when I say I'm introverted; it just makes me a better party guest.

In my experience, some submissives unknowingly hide behind vague language because they are either inexperienced at email introductions, scared, or both. Anyone who turns them away because they discredit ideals as cheap may well be turning away some beautiful obedient, loyal and honest people.


(in reply to AAkasha)
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RE: Throwaway Qualities in Subs - 4/24/2005 5:38:29 PM   
onceburned


Posts: 2117
Joined: 1/4/2005
From: Iowa
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AAkasha
Subs just grab these words because they think femdoms want to hear it, and they really don't *mean* it. And, in my experience an online sub/sub in courting mode is only as loyal as he needs to be to keep his foot in the door.


I suppose for these subs the domme search process is a bit like the job search process. Yes, they want to get their foot in the door. They don't want to go out on a limb and say anything that will sabotage their prospects.

But what you are saying, if I understand you correctly, is that these subs sound like clones. Each one bleating out the mantra of OBEDIENT, LOYAL and HONEST as if it cradled the promise of undreamt happiness.

If everyone is chanting it, how is an individual's voice to be heard?. How does a sub stand out from the crowd?

quote:

My suggestion is that subs learn some new words to describe their qualities, and include ones that are not just synonyms for "submissive" because you think


This sounds like good advice. I describe myself as self-directed, undemanding and compassionate. These definitely capture my personality, and the first term looks almost as if it is the opposite of submissive, which sparks some discussion.

< Message edited by onceburned -- 4/24/2005 5:40:20 PM >

(in reply to AAkasha)
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RE: Throwaway Qualities in Subs - 4/24/2005 6:07:24 PM   
BlkTallFullfig


Posts: 5585
Joined: 6/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LdyAuburn
Have you considered that you are 'too much' you come across as very intense and demanding. You expect things to be your way or not at all.

I was thinking the very same thing... He sure seems to know exactly how he wants things for having no expectations except that of performing for the household AS Told.

quote:

by the by did you used to post similar comments under a different nick?
Very Perceptive, I was wondering the same thing. M

_____________________________

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""Touching was, and still is, and will always be, the true revolution" Nikki Giovanni

(in reply to LdyAuburn)
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RE: Throwaway Qualities in Subs - 4/24/2005 6:23:35 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
Status: offline
quote:

I think an uncollared submissive should be able to state views strongly (intensely) on a message board without his submissiveness being called into question.


I think a collared submissive should be able to do exactly the same thing. No?

- LA

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Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

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RE: Throwaway Qualities in Subs - 4/24/2005 6:31:54 PM   
LadyAngelika


Posts: 8070
Joined: 7/4/2004
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quote:

My suggestion is that subs learn some new words to describe their qualities, and include ones that are not just synonyms for "submissive" because you think that's what we want to hear. What about creative, intuitive, sensual, mischeivious, playful, unpredictable.


How refreshing when we get such responses!

I can honestly tell you that I'm really losing interest in honest, loyal, obedient submissives™ .

I have a great deal of attraction for a man who will first and foremost show me respect and be gallant. And all the better when as we get to know each other and he begins to trust me that he be inclined to submit to me. That this man be strong, independent and have integrity in all aspects of his life is so very important to me.

But a man that comes off right away with "own me Mistress!" Blech.

- LA

_____________________________

Une main de fer dans un gant de velours ~ An iron hand in a velvet glove

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RE: Throwaway Qualities in Subs - 4/24/2005 9:32:36 PM   
Durentu


Posts: 11
Joined: 11/18/2004
Status: offline 		hehehe. I agree. Much of the words I hear I filter through logic. If it's not logically coherent, a flag inside my head goes up and/or consider it a lie. If one is in a marriage and says "I'm loyal", then I would have them tell their spouse before going any further (ie make their words be true). If they can't do it, I don't want them anyways. It avoids the drama later on.

I've found that logic is my main weapon and protector against bad situations and a judge to define depth of character (among other methods and principles). Also, it's a set of morals that is wanting in society in general. Think of the knight in shining armor sweeping a fair maiden off their feet. Many have the bling bling today, but is completely hollow inside the armor. On the other side, people are attracted to the bling bling and don't care about the inside, or are blind to it, because the glare blinds them.

Put on some shades and tap the armor to see if anything is in there. Test the person as if you were buying a good cantaloupe. Look, turn it, look again, knock, knock sniff sniff, shake shake shake, sniff, shake, look, knock, toss it up and down a bit, then purchase it.

(in reply to LadyAngelika)
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RE: Throwaway Qualities in Subs - 4/25/2005 4:45:55 AM   
scotsman0112


Posts: 4
Joined: 4/23/2005
Status: offline 		Couple of questions.

One, if a sub uses said words to describe himself (or herself) isn't it important to really understand why they chose those words? Did they choose those words because they are easy, or did they choose them because they understood what is being implied through the use of those words?

This one is more so for LordandMaster - If you were to take on a submissive who obeyed your every order, never did anything wrong, and did as you commanded cheerfully would that not take a lot of the fun out of the situation for you? I know that part of what I enjoy of this scene is the idea of power, I can for example, do things to a submissive that I would not normally do (applying nipple clamps and flogging).

In any relationship I would want the punishment aspect to be a part of it. If I was truely honest and the submissive had done as commanded, then there should be no reason to punish them. Where's the fun in that?

I think care should be taken to remember that for the vast majority of people, this is a game - for those few who go beyond that stage, madness can set in. Why do you think that in olden days so many tortures went mad and were themselves executed?

(in reply to Durentu)
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RE: Throwaway Qualities in Subs - 4/25/2005 12:34:51 PM   
BlkTallFullfig


Posts: 5585
Joined: 6/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster
Those words mean what they mean, and if people use them to describe themselves, it isn't really their fault that the rest of the world has taken a big crap all over those words.

I agree with you here... It isn't fair that our becoming cynical should change the simple meaning of perfectly good words.
quote:

I look for two things only: honesty and obedience. I don't look for mischievous, playful, intuitive, or unpredictable. If all that describes what someone is, fine. But if they're not also honest and obedient, it isn't going to work.

Me too Lam. M

_____________________________

a.k.a. SexyBossyBBW
""Touching was, and still is, and will always be, the true revolution" Nikki Giovanni

(in reply to Lordandmaster)
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RE: Throwaway Qualities in Subs - 4/25/2005 1:02:00 PM   
happypervert


Posts: 2203
Joined: 5/11/2004
From: Scranton, PA
Status: offline 		I think from a marketing perspective somebody describing their best qualities as "honesty, obedience, and loyalty" is kinda like Jaguar describing their cars as "having an engine, 4 wheels, and seats" . . . you expect those things. So the best traits are the ones that set one apart from the crowd.

There are other self-descriptions that are just useless cliches -- for example, folks with the intellects of doorknobs would say they are "smart", so it is the unique descriptors that are most important. I want someone who can entertain me so I look for indicators of wit; LadyAngelika mentioned gallant among other things. But if someone uses all the standard "qualities" to describe themself, all they are really saying is "I'm just like everyone else and there's no special reason to pick me."

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RE: Throwaway Qualities in Subs - 4/25/2005 1:15:07 PM   
EmeraldSlave2


Posts: 3645
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		And let's not leave out the dominants...

"will go at your own pace"

"limits will be respected"

"Be firm and expect obedience"

Etc.

(in reply to happypervert)
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RE: Throwaway Qualities in Subs - 4/25/2005 3:57:28 PM   
goodhouseboy


Posts: 23
Joined: 4/19/2005
Status: offline
quote:

Have you considered that you are 'too much' you come across as very intense and demanding. You expect things to be your way or not at all. For example re your service, the dominant you are serving might like the dishes washed up first you might 'know' that one washes the glasses first.


by the by did you used to post similar comments under a different nick?

======================

1st...
am i too much?...for what? stating what i call truth? i am truly sorry...
my way?...no! not at all! i have always been the one to do it HER way.
dishes/glasses...oh my gawd...it is a phrase...i do the dishes...it means i do everything that was used to cook with and eat from...my gawd...i am sorry if no one likes my phrasing...i am an ole country boy...i type as i speak...as i think...sorry if i upset anyone.
and 2nd
yes...i have had several names...everytime i move i change...i figure on not being able to get to a computer so i end a profile...and start fresh when i can get back to a computer...
i didn't see any harm in it...
i have been looking now since 07/04 and will keep looking...some day someone out there will be honest, and is not looking for a sugar-daddy...is not a pro...and is actually interested in a houseboy that enjoys serving for service sake...
and just maybe,.,,,, She will be able to expand my world from mere d/s into s/m...
but maybe then
it won't happen and i will never ever see a domme again??//
who knows the future?

thanks for my 3 cents
houseboy

(in reply to AAkasha)
Profile   Post #: 20
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