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RE: A Masters opinion - 4/27/2007 9:27:34 AM

JSin

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Like I said these things are changing... I graduated in 1987... My Daughter graduates in about a month...The difference in behavior over the last 20 years is tremendous. My guess is the social system over the last decade has changed tremendously as evidenced by the behaviors of many of the 20 somethings I know... But you get into the age group of 40 plus I would wager the socialization they were placed under is a far cry from what your experiance is.

JSin

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

RE: A Masters opinion - 4/27/2007 9:32:08 AM

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Agree Lucky

quote:

This is much like the programming most men have to overcome to be compassionate, kind, ect. In younger men these are not valued nor virtuous... to demonstrate them often get's ya labled a pussy, wimp and what have you...Thus no dates..

Just like the many men who didn't buy into this and were kind and compassionate and getting laid.

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RE: A Masters opinion - 4/27/2007 9:37:16 AM

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quote:

I'm actually going to agree with you, I think it is not so much an aspect of orientation but rather a reflection of social programming... This is changing though as women are asserting thier rights and the grrls being raised by these women are understanding that they don't have to be subservient to men.

If you think back to High School for example... If a grrl wanted a date she had to be a "Nice" girl, This usually ment not bitchy demanding and what have you. The aspects that were valued were well behaved demure what have you. As such Dominant Women have overcome this social pressure to some degree but the submissive aspects of that programming still exist.

This is much like the programming most men have to overcome to be compassionate, kind, ect. In younger men these are not valued nor virtuous... to demonstrate them often get's ya labled a pussy, wimp and what have you... Thus no dates.

I think the social programming required to be overcome is similar in the Dominant female and the Submissive male at least in Western patriarchical Society, In a Matriarchy those patterns likely would vary.

Then again I don't think anyone is a "Natural Born" anything as far as behavior goes. They are results of a long complex social matrix. <Nature vrs Nurture argument>

I think there's an equally opposite interpretation that says that we no longer rejoice in being "masculine" or "feminine" as our Path's and Journey's dictate to us.

I can't speak for everyone, but what I see my son and daughters going through in school in terms of gender programming is far different than what I grew up with.

As well, ask any submissive who has "come out" - in many cases, you'll find that she's labeled a freak or traitor by other women because she makes a choice to be submissive to men, a "traitor" to feminist ideals. Rather than celebrate that she has a choice and has exercised such choice (which is what feminism was supposed to be about), she's looked down upon for not assuming a more dominant or power-imbalanced role with men with her in charge.

I've felt that sting from the opposite - I am extremely courteous, having been raised on a combination of Germanic/Old World and Southern hospitality manners. Yet I enjoy the Dominant side - and I am labeled an abuser or caveman because I prefer relationships and women who wish such a power exchange with men in charge.

From what I see in education, in the media and in general expectations, the programming these days has swung wildly opposite of the old "patriarchal" mores - look at what schools teach, look at what the statistics show - young boys are at academic disadvantages. Just like sexual attitudes in general shift and swing, so does the concept of "who should be on Top" - and rather than making it character based, it's still gender based. What I see now is that the female gender is conventionally viewed as being "on Top".

There's no balance, amidst a recognition of differences of gender, which I think would be the ideal.

For the original OP, I originally wasn't going to respond because I feel this is another "Men suck" type of post. Do many (so-called) Dominant men have a bad attitude and misplaced concept of female sexuality and power/gender dynamics? Yes. Unfortunately - which is why I weep for my gender sometimes. Do I think that the opposite (men all suck) attitude is just as destructive? Yes.

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RE: A Masters opinion - 4/27/2007 9:44:13 AM

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I wouldnt say that there is no such thing as a naturally dominant woman OR man. My opinion is that they are quite rare indeed, and few people ever meet a purist so they begin to think it is just a myth, like Bigfoot

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RE: A Masters opinion - 4/27/2007 9:49:42 AM

imthatacheyouhav

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

I have, in my time, met a few Masters that have expressed an opinion that there is no such thing as a purist natural dominant woman. I would be interested to have some views on this.

i would disagree with that masters opinion. often any statement that blankets an entire group of people like that, is going to label someone wrong.
*Edited for spelling

< Message edited by imthatacheyouhav -- 4/27/2007 9:51:03 AM >

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RE: A Masters opinion - 4/27/2007 10:06:43 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JSin
Like I said these things are changing... I graduated in 1987... My Daughter graduates in about a month...The difference in behavior over the last 20 years is tremendous. My guess is the social system over the last decade has changed tremendously as evidenced by the behaviors of many of the 20 somethings I know... But you get into the age group of 40 plus I would wager the socialization they were placed under is a far cry from what your experiance is.

JSin

There have always been women in history who rejected such programming- that's how we got the whole women's movement started to begin with.

Trust me, my grandmother was a young single mother of 3 in the 50s, in the South- something women just didn't do. My family is a long line of matriarchs who did not accept traditional socialization/suppression of women.

It may be increasing more as such socialization becomes less prevalent (I certainly don't disagree that socialization exists and many sadly fall into it), but there have always been women who were dominant.

Although most of the time, women learned to manipulate and dominate WITHIN the system they were forced to inhabit- behind the scenes. Just as dominant and controlling, simply under cover of the socialized image.

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RE: A Masters opinion - 4/27/2007 10:17:42 AM

JSin

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Certainly there have been but we were talkinbg in general terms... Because women who rejected stand out as the execption to the rule it simply demostrates that the general statement holds true. These statements were in no means ment to stand as a universal truism though.

The "Master" cited by the OP would be incorrect that there are "No" purely dominant women... That being said I think were they do exist it is because they have made a concious decision to break with the social norm.

That being said I find extreemeowner's statements interesting in terms of how the pendulem has swung the other way in socialization. Much of this is likely attributed to the radical increase in numbers of single mothers raising kids in the last couple decades here in the US.

It would be interesting to look at the socialization patterns in other areas of the world and see if it holds true.

JSin

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

RE: A Masters opinion - 4/27/2007 10:26:41 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JSin
That being said I think were they do exist it is because they have made a concious decision to break with the social norm.

I don't think that's necessarily true.

I've always not been with the social norm. I never made a conscious decision to break with it- the norm just never "took" for me. I'm very normal and boring in some ways and I'm very not normal and not boring in some ways.

And I think that's true of a lot of people throughout history- they MAY have had to make a conscious choice somewhere along the lines to do what they wanted to do despite the norms...but I'm guess more than a few simply were who they were, and never made a conscious decision either way.

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RE: A Masters opinion - 4/27/2007 10:45:06 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JSin
That being said I find extreemeowner's statements interesting in terms of how the pendulem has swung the other way in socialization. Much of this is likely attributed to the radical increase in numbers of single mothers raising kids in the last couple decades here in the US.

Seriously, you think it's all about single women?

I find that statement interesting. I think if you look at the relevant civil rights, women's rights and feminism movements, you'll find a far greater effect on the political and educational climate than just single mothers. I'm curious where that statement comes from.

What I find very interesting is how quickly we're seeing a movement back to center - with some reports that I've seen anecdotally on "news" that talk about how young women are less likely to be charging towards careers at the exclusion of having children/family.
What I find VERY sad is the lack of attention given to young boys these days. As I said, balance is far missing. Masculinity is not celebrated - only mocked or stereotyped. True femininity is not celebrated either, only the concepts of political feminism seem to be taught in the educational system.

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RE: A Masters opinion - 4/27/2007 12:16:43 PM

tade

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I know of at least one... My wife. Not a submissive bone in her body. One of the main things I love about her is her unwillingness to submit in any given circumstance. Not a sexual thing but while "playfighting" with her I once got her in a guillotine choke and I now know for a fact that she will go limp, pass out and deal with the headache rather than simply admit she is beaten and tap out. (BTW yoking out your wife is something most men dream of) And you should see what she does to a sub with her boots and crop... Mmmmmm

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RE: A Masters opinion - 4/27/2007 12:27:59 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

quote:

ORIGINAL: Asraii

quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

I have, in my time, met a few Masters that have expressed an opinion that there is no such thing as a purist natural dominant woman. I would be interested to have some views on this.

By purist natural dominant; I assume you are referring to 'being born this way'?

By ‘purist’ I mean that they do not switch, do not have a submissive side.

I will just add that I have had dominants give me that sort of knowing wink. I think to some dominants it’s a challenge. They believe that they can convert! A bit like wanting to convert a lesbian!

I've known people of both genders who were very dominant... and others who were more moderately so... and some who were trying to be as an overcompensation for insecurities. I've also known dominants who met an individual they felt submissive towards. That included one dominant woman who was very submissive towards her husband, the only person she was submissive with. My point being there are all kinds out there. There are people of both genders who are quite dominant and would never submit to anyone. There are some who are dominant with some but could be submissive with one or a few. There are some who regularly switch back and forth.

"Bob... if we're gonna start putting people in boxes... we're gonna need more boxes."

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(in reply to MariaB)

RE: A Masters opinion - 4/27/2007 12:28:10 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ExtremeOwnerIL

For the original OP, I originally wasn't going to respond because I feel this is another "Men suck" type of post. Do many (so-called) Dominant men have a bad attitude and misplaced concept of female sexuality and power/gender dynamics? Yes. Unfortunately - which is why I weep for my gender sometimes. Do I think that the opposite (men all suck) attitude is just as destructive? Yes.

Then you obviously know nothing about me for if you did you would understand that whilst I very much celebrate being a woman, I do so because I adore men!!!
I am not a feminist and I am most certainly not a man hater and for that to be insinuated is pretty laughable.
I have been told by some fairly well known dominants on the scene that they don’t believe a woman can be totally dominant and it made me wonder how many other male dominants felt this.

For those who are upset about me using the word purist, I mean it in no other way than to say that they are ‘dominant only’ and not in a way of meaning purer!

< Message edited by MariaB -- 4/27/2007 12:29:15 PM >

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RE: A Masters opinion - 4/27/2007 12:44:30 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

I have been told by some fairly well known dominants on the scene that they don’t believe a woman can be totally dominant and it made me wonder how many other male dominants felt this.

I'll share this thought on this specific point. I've known more than a few dominant women who weren't entirely comfortable with their own dominance. Perhaps that's the source of the opinion you've been given.

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A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to MariaB)

RE: A Masters opinion - 4/27/2007 12:53:18 PM

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Course there's also the option that women just tend to be more open about their lack of comfort versus males.

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RE: A Masters opinion - 4/27/2007 12:56:48 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

I have been told by some fairly well known dominants on the scene that they don’t believe a woman can be totally dominant and it made me wonder how many other male dominants felt this.

I'll share this thought on this specific point. I've known more than a few dominant women who weren't entirely comfortable with their own dominance. Perhaps that's the source of the opinion you've been given.

No. If the opinions had come from dominant guys that had only been around a short while and only knew a few fem domes, then I wouldn’t of taken much notice and just put it down to ignorance on their part, but these opinions have come mainly from men that are renowned dominant men that have been around a long time and have many fem domme friends.

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RE: A Masters opinion - 4/27/2007 1:01:04 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Course there's also the option that women just tend to be more open about their lack of comfort versus males.

I agree with this. Women talk a lot more and share things. I have had many a time when I have felt uncomfortable in a play situation, not because I doubt myself as a dominant but because sometimes it just doesn’t work.
Perhaps this could be interpreted as not being true to oneself

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RE: A Masters opinion - 4/27/2007 2:18:42 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SirDominic

The simple answer is, of course there are. The human condition is such that there is room for all types of personalities. Always have been. Some of the women who I most admired are the Victorian Lady Travellers. At a time when a woman's place was definitely in the home, there were some who broke beyond that mold and went and did things the big boys were doing. Things like exploring deepest darkest Africa, travelling in Arabian lands with no male escorts, etc. Truly a fascinating group of women.

Now, as then, it takes a powerful independent streak; a willingness to not be brainwashed by "societal norms".

And yes, unfortunately, there are a lot of men who find all of this impossible to believe. To them, you will always be just faking it. Allow them their delusions as you won't ever likely change their mind.

From another point of view, there are purist natural dominant woman who can be very happy being submissive to the right man. My slave has lead a life where she had to be strong and be dominant to survive, or she would have been run over by the men around her (20 years in the Air Force tell you anything?). Yet her submission to me is the most joyous experience of her life. I'd like to take the credit for being Super Master, but the reality is that we simply mesh together so well. She feels comfortable with my dominance, and trusting enough in me to submit completely. So, on the flip side, there are very dominant women who do enjoy being completely submissive.

Namaste, Sir Dominic

Sir Dominic You seem to always word things so eloquently and i agree completely.

minnetar

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RE: A Masters opinion - 4/27/2007 3:54:04 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB
Then you obviously know nothing about me for if you did you would understand that whilst I very much celebrate being a woman, I do so because I adore men!!!
I am not a feminist and I am most certainly not a man hater and for that to be insinuated is pretty laughable.
I have been told by some fairly well known dominants on the scene that they don’t believe a woman can be totally dominant and it made me wonder how many other male dominants felt this.

That much is obvious, well met for pointing that out. *chuckle* All I can do is comment on the little information given and my feelings about it. I don't know you, all I can go by is the tone of the text, which is subjective to the reader. If you're going to put something out there, there is often the chance that the context that the reader will take it in is negative.

Kindest regards,
EO

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RE: A Masters opinion - 4/27/2007 5:32:48 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MariaB

No. If the opinions had come from dominant guys that had only been around a short while and only knew a few fem domes, then I wouldn’t of taken much notice and just put it down to ignorance on their part, but these opinions have come mainly from men that are renowned dominant men that have been around a long time and have many fem domme friends.

First of all.... just what the heck is renowned anyway? If they are so widely known then they shouldn't have any issue with having their names mentioned here.

At any rate, It doesn't mean anything. Regardless to their level of experience because their experience is only based on those they have met & discussed this theory with. Their findings could only be based on a very small percentage of the total female dominant population. I'm sure that these numbers are very small in the grand scheme of it all, how many women can these men have met? These men are but a few fish in a very big pond full of many many many fish & it is impossible to think that they are all that well known.

I would also say it is fairly safe to assume that their theories are primarily based on speculation rather than verifiable documented statements from every dominant woman they have encountered in all their years. Also if they wish to be entirely accurate in this observation they might want to compare notes & back up their method of obtaining this info & see if they each received the same feedback consistently from each of the women because people don't always respond to people in the same way. Their motivation could play a big part in their response.

OR.....

Just call this all what it is..... an opinion & we all know what opinions are.

This is all starting to sound like yet another twist on the tired old coments that have one group pointing fingers & saying the other group isn't as real as they are.

< Message edited by MstrssPassion -- 4/27/2007 5:36:30 PM >

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RE: A Masters opinion - 4/28/2007 3:29:51 AM

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The original post was based on original conversations I have had.
Of course what they say is still only an opinion. We can choose to laugh at them, believe them or debate with them about why they would have such an opinion.
I have never got down to the nitty gritty of how these opinions were formed and that was my reason for this post. Just asking peoples opinions.

(in reply to MstrssPassion)

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