RE: "Punishment"????

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RE: "Punishment"???? - 4/30/2007 10:06:29 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BayouSub

If punishment does not work on adults, why do we have prisons? Why do the police give speeding tickets? Why do employees try to avoid letters of reprimand? Of course punishment, or rather the fear of punishment, works to change adult behavior. We can argue whether it is the best way to change behavior. We can hope all adults are mature and responsible but experience teaches otherwise.

Of course, to be effective, punishment must be unpleasant. A light spanking of someone who enjoys it will reinforce the bad behavior. Making that same person sit in the cornor for an hour or do extra chores may be very effective.

Just because punishment is a fantasy for some of us does not mean that real punishment is ineffective. Take away something I like or make me do something I hate and you can punish me in a very real way and change my behavior.

Sorry I have to disagree.. you know how hi the rate is of people who have been in prison that go back?? i dont know the exact number but I do know it is very hi, in NY there is even a group against the way prisons are because they are NOT effective they do not work as a way to make people not want to do things. Also people who get traffic tickets well I think that for some it gets them where it hurts right in the wallet buy many dont even care about that and there for accumulate them, a lot dont even pay them how do you think a lot of tow truck drivers make their liveing??

Just food for thought.

Magik's slave

_____________________________

If you’re going through hell keep on moving
don't slow down
if you’re scared dont show it
you might get out
before the devil even knows your there.

-Rodney Atkins-

(in reply to BayouSub)

RE: "Punishment"???? - 4/30/2007 10:22:23 AM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gypsygrl

It may be a difference of semantics, but when I think of punishment, I think of it in terms of a penalty.

A punishment that is perceived as a penalty ("cost of doing business", we euphemistically call it in some contexts) isn't serving as a punishments. It's just another case of two wrongs trying to make a right, which never works out.

Properly done, a punishment is a deterrent. Failing to carry it out if the deterrent isn't enough will diminish trust, respect and the feeling of safety that stems from predictable living conditions. After it has been carried out, its role as a deterrent will have been reinforced, unless it was done improperly.

That said, it's not a suitable model for everyone.

quote:

I can see what you're saying here, but much of it seems to emphasize the symbolic, emotional effects of punishment which to me could be ritualized with out being connected to specific behaviors.

Quite. For those of us who use punishment as a deterrent, it can be frustrating and sometimes confusing that others use it as a term for a kind of play. When negotiating limits, someone who uses punishments as a deterrent will have to do a little dance to figure out whether the other person actually wants that, or if they just want to use bratty behaviour to initiate play, or just want a ritualized context for play.

I'm all for the use of rituals in certain connections; rituals have always been a part of human behaviour, and even play a part in animal behaviour. But confusing rituals with each other or with other things isn't useful.

quote:

I guess part of is because I wonder why an s-type would be misbehaving in the first place.

Depends on their wiring. For some people, like me, obedience is an important part of the D/s dynamic. For others, it isn't. For some, willfull disobedience is a way to get attention (in the form of play) without asking for it in the usual way.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to gypsygrl)

RE: "Punishment"???? - 4/30/2007 10:40:53 AM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I think that it just depends on the submissive whether or not punishments are effective.

Anyone can be effectively punished. No-one appreciates it in the short term, many do not appreciate it in the long term. But certain punishments are not effective for certain people; a punishment must suit the person in question, and the desired outcome of its application.

quote:

Most of us obey laws for more reasons than some penalty will be bestowed upon us. There is a desire to fit into society.

The reasons are individual. Some follow laws because the associated punishments are a deterrent. Some follow them from a desire to fit into society. Behaviour is regulated in a multitude of ways, something I've written about in other threads.

For me, I behave in accordance with my own ethics because that is right for me, not because the laws have anything to say about it, or because I want to fit in; I don't want to fit in, and I do not respect the authority of the people who make the laws (I didn't vote for them).

However, I comply with the laws I don't agree with as well, for the simple reason that being put in prison would be incompatible with my responsibilities for my nephandi. In other cases I comply because the benefit of what I want to do isn't worth the penalty imposed by the law. Thus, it acts as a deterrent in the cases where my own morals do not conform with the requirements of the law.

quote:

... most evolved people do so for more intrinsic reasons. I see myself as the type of person that does the "right" thing more often than not because of an inner drive to do so.

What you're describing is true for most people. Refer to Kohlberg's stages of moral development for a common model of this, or my posts in the "Positive and negative discipline" and "Honor, Code and your life" threads for an alternative model of it. What you have described so far is fairly consistent with his notion of "stage 3" morality, the first stage where there is an "intrinsic" or "inner" drive.

quote:

If I were a dominant, I would desire a submissive that was motivated intrinsically to behave themselves, and not motivated by a carrot and a stick.

Depends on the behaviour you want from them. If that behaviour is incompatible with their current morals or the social norms they have internalized, you might want to deal with it, depending on the specific dynamics involved.

Few people have any interest in the "carrot and stick" model, in itself.

quote:

One can condition a dog in such a manner too, but I tend to think that submissives are more intelligent than dogs (and even dogs respond better to the carrot over the long term than to the stick).

Dogs are a fairly good example, although they have less complicated behaviour. And, yes, once they're past a certain stage (which humans pass before reaching the age of consent), positive reinforcement is usually more effective.

A submissive is certainly a lot more intelligent than a dog, but intelligence isn't the only factor in behaviour, and certainly not a factor in morals, ethics and social mores. Nor does it have a whole lot of impact on how they respond to conditioning and other ways to change behaviour.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

RE: "Punishment"???? - 4/30/2007 10:48:00 AM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gypsygrl

None of these examples apply to relationships between mutually consenting adults of equal status where one voluntarily subordinates themself to another. These sorts of punishments are necessary in situations of conflict and rely on power to reinforce an authority that hasn't been fully internalized.

First off, the parties are not necessarily of equal status after entering the relationship.

Second, authority is very rarely internalized consciously, especially not complete authority, as in TPE relationships. Some people find the application of power to help them internalize the authority of the dominant party, others find it doesn't help. Using such measures with the former is useful, using them with the latter isn't.

quote:

When I'm doing work I really like to do, I don't need any reminders to be on time. I teach. I love teaching. I'm always on time because I care about the students and I want to get started. If something happens that makes me late, I get mad but that almost never happens because I make sure I'm on time. Because I want to be there.

The same goes for a D/s relationship. If I wanted to be in that relationship, I would want to behave myself and obey whatever rules were in place.

In some cases, the desired behaviour is something the sub/slave doesn't like, or doesn't want. In those cases, until they have internalized things to the point where they will obey anyway, it can be useful to provide them with a different motivation for doing it, such as a reward for compliance and a punishment for noncompliance.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to gypsygrl)

RE: "Punishment"???? - 4/30/2007 11:16:27 AM

CreativeDominant

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gypsygrl

quote:

the physical punishment itself serves a myriad of purposes...it serves as further incentive for not repeating the poor behavior, it serves as a release for my Master in case my actions caused him irritation or anger, it serves as an emotional and mental release for me, helping to ease the guilt somewhat and feel as if my "sins" have been washed away for the time being. it allows me to move forward from that point with a positive "i can do better" focus, as opposed to a negative "i'm a failure, can't do anything right" focus. physical punishment also serves to instill and maintain fear of my Master in me, which we both feel is an important, crucial element of our dynamic.

It may be a difference of semantics, but when I think of punishment, I think of it in terms of a penalty.

I can see what you're saying here, but much of it seems to emphasize the symbolic, emotional effects of punishment which to me could be ritualized with out being connected to specific behaviors. In that case, even an s-type who doesn't misbehave would get punished because the point of the punishment is divorced from particular actions. Which is why I can understand 'play' punishments (and I empahsize the scare quotes because I don't mean to imply that they wouldn't be serious) but not punishments given as a consequence of misbehaving.

I guess part of is because I wonder why an s-type would be misbehaving in the first place.

Surely you are not saying that an s-type never misbehaves or that she forgets her courtesy/manners/respect/what have you once in awhile, are you? I don't believe that any more than I believe that a dominant is infallible.

(in reply to gypsygrl)

RE: "Punishment"???? - 4/30/2007 11:33:59 AM

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Joined: 10/8/2005
From: new york state
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quote:

In some cases, the desired behaviour is something the sub/slave doesn't like, or doesn't want. In those cases, until they have internalized things to the point where they will obey anyway, it can be useful to provide them with a different motivation for doing it, such as a reward for compliance and a punishment for noncompliance.

I guess I would have a majorly hard time in a relationship where the Dominant tried use punishment to enforce obedience before I had fully internalized his authority. It would seem coercive to me.

There's two levels at which obedience operates, in my mind. If I'm told to do something, I can obey because I want to do the particular thing that I was told to do. If I don't want to do that particular thing, I take it to the next level, and may decide I want to please the Dominant and do what I'm told even if I don't want to do the thing in question. If I decide I don't care about pleasing the Dominant, I won't do the particular thing, but to me, not caring about pleasing the Dominant raises major questions about the viability of the D/s relationship. Punishment in the event of disobedience, here, would only make things worse. If the desire to obey for its own sake isn't there, punishment acts as a coersion.

There's three possible reasons I might care about pleasing a Dominent: fear, respect and love. I won't base a relationship on fear. I don't do love well and the times I've obeyed solely out of affection have been disasters. Generally, I'm motivated by respect and find it the most stable foundation for a D/s dynamic. The scenario you're suggesting is a dynamic based on fear. Once the authority is internalized, respect becomes a relevant issue.

quote:

Some people find the application of power to help them internalize the authority of the dominant party, others find it doesn't help. Using such measures with the former is useful, using them with the latter isn't.

The application of power is different from the use of punishment. "The application of power" as a more general category under which "the use of punishment" falls. My ability to respect a specific Dominant in a concrete relationship, does, in large measure, relate to the application of power. I need to know he can use whatever I cede to him, and this is especially important in the early stages of a relationship before I've done much internalization. And, its true that a skillfull application of power can jump start the process of internalization. But that application of power doesn't have to take the form of punishment, and, for me, its probably best that it doesn't. So, I fall somewhere in between your two categories.

Of course, everything I say here is subject to change in the event that I internalize the authority of a Dominant who has a different view on punishement. He just better not try to beat me into submitting to his views on punishment unless I've come to respect his authority on such matters. :)

_____________________________

“To be happy is to be able to become aware of oneself without fright.” ~Walter Benjamin

(in reply to Aswad)

RE: "Punishment"???? - 4/30/2007 11:43:07 AM

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From: new york state
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quote:

Surely you are not saying that an s-type never misbehaves or that she forgets her courtesy/manners/respect/what have you once in awhile, are you? I don't believe that any more than I believe that a dominant is infallible.

No, I didn't mean to imply this. By misbehave, I mean willful disobedience, not lapses of attention, forgetfulness and stuff like that. When I posted that, I was thinking in terms of an absense of a desire to obey and I don't see how punishment can create a desire to obey. In her response to that post, daddysprop listed a bunch of examples of disobedience and they all made sense to me.

_____________________________

“To be happy is to be able to become aware of oneself without fright.” ~Walter Benjamin

(in reply to CreativeDominant)

RE: "Punishment"???? - 4/30/2007 11:50:53 AM

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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

Anyone can be effectively punished.

I suppose that depends on what context you are speaking of. I am speaking in the context of a consensual Ds dynamic. Not all of which are punishing.

quote:

No-one appreciates it in the short term, many do not appreciate it in the long term.

I am sure there are people that appreciate it short and long term, I really do not know how this statement applies.

quote:

But certain punishments are not effective for certain people; a punishment must suit the person in question, and the desired outcome of its application.

There people that you speak of, are they all submissives, or are they dominants too? I suppose I could change the behavior of my Dom by engaging in punishing behaviors toward him if he allowed such, but he doesn't. Nor do I allow punishments to be bestowed upon my person. I did not consent to that. We are talking Ds, not in generalities of punishment in the world.

quote:

However, I comply with the laws I don't agree with as well, for the simple reason that being put in prison would be incompatible with my responsibilities for my nephandi. In other cases I comply because the benefit of what I want to do isn't worth the penalty imposed by the law. Thus, it acts as a deterrent in the cases where my own morals do not conform with the requirements of the law

I am known to have disobeyed the law intentionally in an act of civil disobedience. I do not know what this has to do with punishments in a Ds dynamic. No one is the same as another, but in general, society does have a norming type of function on most people. You maybe an exception, but that does not mean that most people need no "laws" designed to "punish" them to get along for the most part. The way we are reared, and institutionalized tend to do that for us. Punishment is a concept that not all cultures have btw, some just used shunning as a normative socializing process. The shunning is the punishment I suppose.

quote:

What you're describing is true for most people. Refer to Kohlberg's stages of moral development for a common model of this, or my posts in the "Positive and negative discipline" and "Honor, Code and your life" threads for an alternative model of it. What you have described so far is fairly consistent with his notion of "stage 3" morality, the first stage where there is an "intrinsic" or "inner" drive.

Astute of you to pick up on the fact I have had some psych classes, some of these theories are important to my discipline.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Aswad)

RE: "Punishment"???? - 4/30/2007 4:33:20 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

As far as real punishment i can see how it might work for some couples. Maybe some do feel cleansed and it helps them getting over the guilt - but what does that do for the dom? Should he be beholden to help you get over it? And would not helping you to get over it be actually the best punishment of all

In terms of being the harshest punishment, perhaps. But the harshest punishment isn't always the most appropriate one. And, yes, it can be a cleansing thing for some.

As for the Dom... you tank your car, change its oil, and take it to the mechanic on occasion; you feed your dog, walk it, and take it to the vet sometimes; why would one assume a sub/slave requires less maintenance?

A Dom can try to treat a sub/slave as a robot, but I doubt that will give good results in the long term; if you want to maximize the benefits of having one, you will have to take good care of it.

quote:

i can't see a dom punishing every tiny little infraction. To punish someone for mistakes every human on earh makes seems over the top. Where does it say subs have to be perfect?

I don't think anyone thinks a sub/slave has to be perfect. But some of them strive to be, just as others sometimes strive for perfection; the goal may be unobtainable, but that doesn't have to stop us from trying to get there.

Along those lines, one may want to use behavioural modification toward that goal, and some may want to use rules and punishment as part of that process, starting with the most important things, and working one's way to the minute details.

For myself, with nephandi, I don't make a ton of rules. That's too much micromanagement for my tastes. Hence, there are no "small" infringements. For me, and for her, it's more about working toward the goal of unconditional, absolute and instinctive obedience. In that regard, some infringements are comparatively minor, and are dealt with in a more lenient way; such minor punishments are more intended to bring it to attention and associate the disobedience with a negative stimulus.

You might not want to discard the analogy of domesticating animals, as humans aren't as different as we'd like to think. If you don't want your dog on the couch, you shouldn't be inconsistent about it.

And, from my experience, failing to carry out a punishment that has been set will only result in a small loss of trust, reduced respect and feelings of insecurity. Consistency and predictability are key factors to providing a situation that living beings can relate and adapt to. Of course, with neph's psych issues, consistency and predictability are even more important than usual.

quote:

Punishment is about changing the behavior, paying a penalty for a wrong doing.

The form that punishment takes is a penalty. But the role of a punishment is as a deterrent, and possibly as a means to bring something to awareness. Paying a penalty for a wrongdoing is nothing more than two wrongs trying to make a right, and that never works out. I prefer to focus on making sure it doesn't happen again, as well as putting the matter behind us. No hard feelings on my part, and no guilt or worrying on her part.

quote:

How can you punish someone for something that is inevidable?

I don't think many Doms do that, except those who do it as a kink/play element, which isn't really a punishment. It is, IMO, fairly vital that the sub/slave should know just why the punishment occurs, and it should (again, IMO) be something that they have the means to try to prevent from happening again. In fact, many serial killers appear to have ended up not being able to internalize the values their parents attempted to teach them because they were punished so much, often without proper explanation, that they ended up not making sense of their situation at all, and not being able to influence it. Instead, the dissonance and malcontent just grows, and they don't develop any strategies to hold it back. Fortunately, most people just break into PTSD or depression instead.

quote:

That would make me feel very on edge all the time - but then again maybe that's the doms real purpose, to keep the sub on their toes. i would personally not do well in a situation like that.

Perhaps. Some might want that. I think it would be very relevant to address, then, whether we're talking about light punishments- stuff that keeps you mindful and aware at all times- which can probably give good results, kind of like Zen and some MA's; or if we're talking about the heavy stuff, which will just lead to stress and tension of the same kind as people in a combat zone experience- humans aren't built to cope with that for extended periods of time without relief, and they frequently don't cope to well even if they get some relief. I certainly wouldn't attempt this myself.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to velvetears)

RE: "Punishment"???? - 4/30/2007 4:52:08 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave

So yet again Im sitting here with my mouth wide thinking "WHAT" this isnt ment to be mean or anything Im just looking to understand but why in the world would you want to be afraid of your Master... I dont understand honest it just seems like such a negative thing why would you want it??? I always thought the opposit was what people wanted, that you shouldnt be afraid of your Master... So Im confused..

Depends on the person. For someone with generalized anxiety disorder, for instance, it can actually be helpful to have something real to be afraid of, rather than the unnamable and irrational fear they otherwise live with. For others, it could be an element of the role and the power exchange involved, by making them constantly aware of their relative positions and statuses. Fear does not have to equate to living with insecurity, which can be a lot more negative.

Also, if your Dom/Master has punished you, in the capital P and registered trademark sense of the word, it's rather hard not to fear future punishments, and that's part of the point with regards to punishments as deterrents. It doesn't mean fearing the Dom/Master, just fearing the things s/he can do.

As spanklette pointed out, there are times when a sub/slave will feel a lot less in-mode than usual, and for those times, the fear of punishment, and later the habit of obedience, can avoid role drift and degeneration of the power dynamic of the relationship.

To paraphrase someone on this board, it's one thing to serve your Dom/Master when you're all hot and tingly and they're ordering you to bend over, and quite another when they kick you out of bed at 5am to fix coffee, make breakfast and lay out some ironed shirts for an early-morning meeting they'll be attending. Particularly if you didn't tuck in until 3am yourself.

In such a situation, knowing that you'll spend the better part of the next hour deeply regretting it if you don't do it can do a very effective job of overcoming the (understandable) reluctance to get up and do it.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to MagiksSlave)

RE: "Punishment"???? - 4/30/2007 5:03:04 PM

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Thanks Aswad for giving me lots to think about - always love your posts :-)

_____________________________

Religion is for people who are scared of hell, Spirituality is for people who have been there

(in reply to Aswad)

RE: "Punishment"???? - 4/30/2007 5:03:17 PM

Aswad

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Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave

Sorry I have to disagree.. you know how hi the rate is of people who have been in prison that go back?? i dont know the exact number but I do know it is very hi, in NY there is even a group against the way prisons are because they are NOT effective they do not work as a way to make people not want to do things.

Don't generalize the way the US prison system works to punishments in general.

Recidivism rates in the US are very high, yes. But recidivism rates for crimes in the middle east are farily low, IIRC. And recidivism rates in the Nordic countries, like Norway (where I'm from), are quite low.

There are a few repeat offenders here that just don't improve, but those generally wouldn't improve with any other system either, and frequently are people who either have no other choice than what they do, or who need psych help, but aren't getting it.

The problems in the US prison system can more easily be attributed to the fact that they serve as breeding grounds for crime; the US makes criminals in their jails. It still has a deterrent effect, just not as much as it would otherwise have.

quote:

Also people who get traffic tickets well I think that for some it gets them where it hurts right in the wallet buy many dont even care about that and there for accumulate them, a lot dont even pay them how do you think a lot of tow truck drivers make their liveing??

The tow truck drivers make their living towing cars for any number of reasons, not just reposession. But, yeah, there's an escalation procedure in place. For D/s relationships, the last option is to terminate the relationship. For the US legal system, it is the "three strikes" rule; i.e. lifetime incarceration. For the middle east, it's the death penalty. For Nordic countries, we unfortunately lack an escalation mechanism, except if there is a psychiatric condition involved, in which we can escalate it to lifetime psychiatric ward confinement (well, if you recover, you can transfer to jail for the rest of the term and then go free, but most don't, even with treatment).

Traffic tickets hurt if they're a set percentage of the persons' wages and can be enforced in some way. Then they tend to work. When they're a set sum, people below a certain income threshold are hit unjustly, and people far above it just don't care. But that's where black-dot systems come in.

Let's not get sidetracked into a major debate on legal systems. Most countries derive some benefit from their legal systems, even if some are more effective than others.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to MagiksSlave)

RE: "Punishment"???? - 4/30/2007 5:34:37 PM

Aswad

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Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: gypsygrl

I guess I would have a majorly hard time in a relationship where the Dominant tried use punishment to enforce obedience before I had fully internalized his authority. It would seem coercive to me.

Yes, it's coercive. That's kind of the point.

Basically, I can run things differently, and would if those weren't the agreed-upon terms of the relationship, but that's how I prefer to manage things, and the preference expressed by my nephandi as well.

Authority might not be the best word for the context. The point was, you might want to enter into a relationship where your obedience is required and expected, but you might also not, at the point when you enter the relationship, be completely obedient yet. For instance, there are probably things that are not negotiated limits that you would still have an aversion to complying with. Coercion can aid in obtaining such compliance in cases where the Dom/Master is certain that it's within your abilities to deal with it, even if you don't realize it yourself. Lots of reasons.

Note also that I don't generally need to employ physical coercion of any sort, and never have, but there are some situations where it is called for, or happens to be the best way to achieve the desired result.

quote:

If I'm told to do something, I can obey because I want to do the particular thing that I was told to do. If I don't want to do that particular thing, I take it to the next level, and may decide I want to please the Dominant and do what I'm told even if I don't want to do the thing in question. If I decide I don't care about pleasing the Dominant, I won't do the particular thing, but to me, not caring about pleasing the Dominant raises major questions about the viability of the D/s relationship.

If you have the ability to obey anything your Dom wants you to, provided you want to please him, that's great. Other people don't have conscious and rational control over every aspect of their behaviour, generally. Factors such as pain, fear, shame, revulsion, or what-have-you may prevent them from forcing themselves to comply, even in a case where they want to comply for their dom.

And, yes, not caring about wanting to please the Dom does raise questions about the viability of the relationship. But variations in this over time are also to be expected, and the (often) resultant role-drift can be the death of such a relationship as well.

quote:

There's three possible reasons I might care about pleasing a Dominent: fear, respect and love. I won't base a relationship on fear. I don't do love well and the times I've obeyed solely out of affection have been disasters. Generally, I'm motivated by respect and find it the most stable foundation for a D/s dynamic.

Excellent. Glad that works for you. Our dynamic is based on all three. That works for us. Variation is a wonderful thing

quote:

The scenario you're suggesting is a dynamic based on fear. Once the authority is internalized, respect becomes a relevant issue.

No, I'm suggesting that certain dynamics may employ psychology, rather than blundering around in the dark like most relationships do, and that fear can be used for constructive purposes as well. Fear by itself, however, doesn't usually make for anything other than a porn story.

quote:

I need to know he can use whatever I cede to him, and this is especially important in the early stages of a relationship before I've done much internalization. And, its true that a skillfull application of power can jump start the process of internalization. But that application of power doesn't have to take the form of punishment, and, for me, its probably best that it doesn't. So, I fall somewhere in between your two categories.

Sorry if I wasn't clear. Punishments aren't a panacea. They're a tool for the toolbox, like any other. If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail; I try to stock up on everything from duct tape to digital logic probes instead of sticking to that hammer.

I have been addressing the concerns about its validity, not touting it as a cure for all ills of relationships. If I had such a cure, I'd be a billionaire with my own slave empire on a tropical island somewhere, by now.

Sometimes I take the devils' advocate a bit too far, and forget to point out that I have a stance of my own, which might make it seem like mine is what I'm touting. Other times, I mention my stance, and people get too caught up in discussing that to see the topic at hand. Can't win them all; sometimes, none of them.

Proper application of force and/or power can indeed be a part of the process of internalizing things, and sometimes, punishments are good for that.

But for most of the rules that I have, this isn't so much a case of punishing someone to bring them in line as it is a case of giving them another chance, rather than saying "this isn't working, leave and don't come back" the first (and only) time... From what you said, I doubt you would break those, even early on.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to gypsygrl)

RE: "Punishment"???? - 4/30/2007 5:35:03 PM

Posts: 1272
Joined: 4/11/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

As far as real punishment i can see how it might work for some couples. Maybe some do feel cleansed and it helps them getting over the guilt - but what does that do for the dom? Should he be beholden to help you get over it? And would not helping you to get over it be actually the best punishment of all

i can't see a dom punishing every tiny little infraction. To punish someone for mistakes every human on earh makes seems over the top. Where does it say subs have to be perfect? Punishment is about changing the behavior, paying a penalty for a wrong doing. How can you punish someone for something that is inevidable? That would make me feel very on edge all the time - but then again maybe that's the doms real purpose, to keep the sub on their toes. i would personally not do well in a situation like that.

you hit the nail on the head right there velvetears, at least for me. my Master punishes for all the little things because it helps to keep me in a constant toe-the-line mentality. it sharpens my focus and helps me to pay attention to all the small details, because i know that HE cares, and that everything i do, including every mistake i make, is a reflection on him.

no i will never be perfect, but that doesn't mean i should not strive to be the very best i can possibly be for him. when i am punished for being tardy, or burning the food, or being clumsy and breaking something, or the hundred and one other little things that might make some wonder, why punish for such things?...it reminds me to be more careful, manage my time more wisely, slow down, calm down, etc. all valuable lessons imo.

daddysprop i understand completely. He is helping you become a better person and slave by reminding you of your misdeeds. i also don't understand punishment as play as i think it detracts from its original meaning of modifying behavior.

minnetar

(in reply to daddysprop247)

RE: "Punishment"???? - 4/30/2007 5:37:56 PM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: gypsygrl

When I posted that, I was thinking in terms of an absense of a desire to obey and I don't see how punishment can create a desire to obey.

It can't. Or, at least, not always. It can condition obedience, which some of us like, but it can't create the desire to obey. With the proper measures, though, even conditioning can be internalized. That usually happens to kids when they start worrying about "fitting in". Changing previously internalized values in adults takes a lot of time and work, unless you're willing to risk harming them mentally, although in either case their cooperation will aid in making it happen a lot sooner.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to gypsygrl)

RE: "Punishment"???? - 4/30/2007 5:39:38 PM

Posts: 3066
Joined: 2/4/2006
From: NYS
Status: offline

The only time I have been punished was after we had talked it out, after we had discovered it was miscommunication - which btw has always been at the root of any of our arguments, and he still punished me. It wasn't so I could learn from my mistakes, it was because I couldn't get over the guilt. He gave me a few symbolic swats on the rear and I bawled like a baby in his arms. And then I could move on.

(in reply to daddysprop247)

RE: "Punishment"???? - 4/30/2007 5:53:46 PM

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Joined: 6/28/2006
Status: offline

some people, feel ridden with guilt and need punishment to feel they have paid the price to be free of that guilt...

some punish because they've lost or never had control in the first place and it makes them feel all powerful and all knowing...

and others, well, it doesn't matter to me really what they do because they aren't doing it to or with me...

either way, just because it's not a part of my dynamic doesn't mean i don't understand, or can't understand why others have it as part of their dynamic.

(in reply to mistoferin)

RE: "Punishment"???? - 4/30/2007 5:56:36 PM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I suppose that depends on what context you are speaking of. I am speaking in the context of a consensual Ds dynamic. Not all of which are punishing.

I was just saying that anyone can be punished in some effective way. But, yes, in the D/s dynamic, there are usually agreed-upon limits to the prior consent, which will mean that it is not acceptable in all relationships. Nor is it always appropriate.

quote:

quote:

No-one appreciates it in the short term, many do not appreciate it in the long term.

I am sure there are people that appreciate it short and long term, I really do not know how this statement applies.

If you like pain, and I restrain you, coat you in lidocaine, put on a hood, and leave you without sensory input until you've been hallucinating for 2 hours straight, that doesn't appeal to your enjoyment of pain; hence, you wouldn't appreciate it in the short-term, just to take an example.

The point being that a punishment, in any meaningful sense of the word, is something you don't appreciate in the short term, by definition.

If someone wants to punish you, they'll have to find a stimulus that is negative to you, whether that is a look of disappointment, hours of physical torture, or being restrained from talking to your grandkids on the phone for a week, depending on who you are.

quote:

Nor do I allow punishments to be bestowed upon my person. I did not consent to that. We are talking Ds, not in generalities of punishment in the world.

Sure. I never said it was appropriate or even acceptable to punish everyone. I just said that the mechanisms that a proper punishment acts upon are present in everyone, and that it's possible to trigger that mechanism in anyone. It was in reply to what I saw as an implication that some people could not be punished in a way they would respond to.

quote:

You maybe an exception, but that does not mean that most people need no "laws" designed to "punish" them to get along for the most part. The way we are reared, and institutionalized tend to do that for us.

I'm not an exception, although I operate by what Kohlberg called post-conventional morality, rather than what you describe ("conventional" morality). Most people operate via the "conventional" moralities, imparted via rearing etc., and the laws are just there to appeal to the pre-conventional "moral" modalities in the cases where those laws aren't internalized, which is typically the case for at least some subset of the law. Have you ever infringed on copyrights, or owned a felt-tip pen capable of obscuring the Sony copy-protection strip on CDs in violation of the DMCA? The RIAA is busily bringing people in line with the "law", as they see it. (No, I'm not a fan of the MAFIAA's.)

quote:

Punishment is a concept that not all cultures have btw, some just used shunning as a normative socializing process. The shunning is the punishment I suppose.

You mean not all cultures have the same means of punishment as we do. Social ostracism is a form of punishment. At the pre-conventional stages it works as long as the individual is unable to live satisfactorily on their own. At the conventional stages, it works excellently, and probably locks them into those stages. But, yes, definitely punishment, and one of the harshest forms for a large percentage of the population.

quote:

Astute of you to pick up on the fact I have had some psych classes, some of these theories are important to my discipline.

I wasn't picking up on anything right now, I'm afraid. I was just pointing out the theories, in case you weren't familiar with them, and pointing out that I'd made some revisions to them, in case you were interested. Both the original and modified theory have applications with regards to behavioural modification, including punishments.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

RE: "Punishment"???? - 4/30/2007 5:58:42 PM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: velvetears

Thanks Aswad for giving me lots to think about - always love your posts :-)

You're welcome, and thanks.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to velvetears)

RE: "Punishment"???? - 4/30/2007 6:09:09 PM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Celeste43

It wasn't so I could learn from my mistakes, it was because I couldn't get over the guilt. He gave me a few symbolic swats on the rear and I bawled like a baby in his arms. And then I could move on.

I've had times when I've been really sad about something, and haven't been able to get it out of my system; whipping my own back until it starts bleeding a bit helps get rid of the "blockage". I wouldn't cry at the pain by itself, but it helps me get the rest of it out.

Note that I'm not a masochist, and not the submissive partner. This stuff doesn't seem contingent on that at all. Haven't tried using it for guilt, though. But I suspect that works well, too, given what monks have been going at for centuries.

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to Celeste43)

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