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RE: "Punishment"???? - 4/30/2007 6:25:04 PM

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From: North Carolina
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Physical punishment is not a deterent for me. Yes I know there are types of pain that are not pleasurable. For me realizing what I have done and knowing the disappointment I have caused is discipline for me. I know those that physcial punishment is whats used for discipline. I don't agree with but if it works for them then so be it. Some people I guess lack guidance and need someone to tell them to be truly sorry for something they have to experience physical pain. Like I said I am an adult and so is Master and when there is a problem we talk about it. Some I guess it isn't the same. Whatever works for them I guess.

_____________________________

Sir Pain's pain slut

(in reply to mistoferin)

RE: "Punishment"???? - 4/30/2007 7:17:33 PM

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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

You mean not all cultures have the same means of punishment as we do. Social ostracism is a form of punishment. At the pre-conventional stages it works as long as the individual is unable to live satisfactorily on their own. At the conventional stages, it works excellently, and probably locks them into those stages. But, yes, definitely punishment, and one of the harshest forms for a large percentage of the population.

I am talking about certain cultures with very few laws, and the few that they do possess have the penalty (punishment) of death by shunning. It is a punishment I suppose, but it is done for the welfare of the whole, not the punishment of the one. It is not meant to coerce anyone into anything or modify behavior of that individual, although I am sure it sets and example for those who witness this sort of treatment.

quote:

I wasn't picking up on anything right now, I'm afraid. I was just pointing out the theories, in case you weren't familiar with them, and pointing out that I'd made some revisions to them, in case you were interested. Both the original and modified theory have applications with regards to behavioural modification, including punishments.

Thanks for being ultimate source of knowledge. I will keep that in mind the next time I think about discussing anything with you.

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 4/30/2007 7:19:38 PM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Aswad)

RE: "Punishment"???? - 4/30/2007 8:45:09 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

Also, if your Dom/Master has punished you, in the capital P and registered trademark sense of the word, it's rather hard not to fear future punishments, and that's part of the point with regards to punishments as deterrents. It doesn't mean fearing the Dom/Master, just fearing the things s/he can do.

OK there is a difference fearing the punishment then fearing the person.. I am not scared of Master he wouldnt want me to be to US that would seem unhealthy (just my opinion) I am however afraid of dissapointing him... but that is way different

Oh and I aint to fond of the electric paddle LOL

Magik's slave

_____________________________

If you’re going through hell keep on moving
don't slow down
if you’re scared dont show it
you might get out
before the devil even knows your there.

-Rodney Atkins-

(in reply to Aswad)

RE: "Punishment"???? - 5/1/2007 12:39:22 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BayouSub

If punishment does not work on adults, why do we have prisons? Why do the police give speeding tickets? Why do employees try to avoid letters of reprimand? Of course punishment, or rather the fear of punishment, works to change adult behavior. We can argue whether it is the best way to change behavior. We can hope all adults are mature and responsible but experience teaches otherwise.

Of course, to be effective, punishment must be unpleasant. A light spanking of someone who enjoys it will reinforce the bad behavior. Making that same person sit in the cornor for an hour or do extra chores may be very effective.

Just because punishment is a fantasy for some of us does not mean that real punishment is ineffective. Take away something I like or make me do something I hate and you can punish me in a very real way and change my behavior.

I try very hard to make the punishment fit the offense. If cubby mouths off to Me, then he has to remain completely silent for a period of time. If he overspends family funds, he has to do without something that he wants that costs money. I believe in reality discipline when possible, letting life teach My slaves the correct behavior to use, but I don't withhold punishment if their behavior impacts Me or My household.

_____________________________

Lady Kathryn
Athens, Ga.
House of Phoenix

"Nothing is ever final until you're dead - and even then I'm sure God negotiates" Anjelica Huston in Everafter

(in reply to BayouSub)

RE: "Punishment"???? - 5/1/2007 7:18:09 AM

CreativeDominant

Posts: 11032
Joined: 3/11/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Calandra

quote:

ORIGINAL: BayouSub

If punishment does not work on adults, why do we have prisons? Why do the police give speeding tickets? Why do employees try to avoid letters of reprimand? Of course punishment, or rather the fear of punishment, works to change adult behavior. We can argue whether it is the best way to change behavior. We can hope all adults are mature and responsible but experience teaches otherwise.

Of course, to be effective, punishment must be unpleasant. A light spanking of someone who enjoys it will reinforce the bad behavior. Making that same person sit in the cornor for an hour or do extra chores may be very effective.

Just because punishment is a fantasy for some of us does not mean that real punishment is ineffective. Take away something I like or make me do something I hate and you can punish me in a very real way and change my behavior.

I try very hard to make the punishment fit the offense. If cubby mouths off to Me, then he has to remain completely silent for a period of time. If he overspends family funds, he has to do without something that he wants that costs money. I believe in reality discipline when possible, letting life teach My slaves the correct behavior to use, but I don't withhold punishment if their behavior impacts Me or My household.

I too am most fond of punishment/discipline that fits the offense. One reason I have never been all that fond of physical punishment is that it "fits" so few offenses. I have learned to see where it could be effective at certain times for certain behaviors as discovered by a dominant and the submissive together...as celeste noted, sometimes those few symbolic swats after long discussion helps to "move" the healing process forward.

Life will teach most people what they need to learn but if part of the job of dominance is guidance, then that guidance includes teaching your submissive the consequences of wrongful behavior. I know there are some that say "I am an adult...tell me what is wrong and I will correct it" but in all honesty, that does not always happen.

(in reply to Calandra)

RE: "Punishment"???? - 5/1/2007 7:20:12 AM

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Part of the attraction of D/s is the structured responsibility/consequence so lacking in mundane life these days.

In a world that increasingly shies away from taking personal accoutability seriously-the buck stops with that guy with the wooden spoon in his hand.

(in reply to CreativeDominant)

RE: "Punishment"???? - 5/1/2007 7:28:04 AM

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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stranger1

Part of the attraction of D/s is the structured responsibility/consequence so lacking in mundane life these days.

In a world that increasingly shies away from taking personal accoutability seriously-the buck stops with that guy with the wooden spoon in his hand.

Yummy, wooden spoons! Those are my favorite "punishment" and if I do a good job in the kitchen he often gives me a good whack with one

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to Stranger1)

RE: "Punishment"???? - 5/1/2007 7:29:46 AM

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From: DC Metro area
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave

but why in the world would you want to be afraid of your Master... I dont understand honest it just seems like such a negative thing why would you want it??? I always thought the opposit was what people wanted, that you shouldnt be afraid of your Master... So Im confused..

Im sorry to put you on the spot or if this sounded bad or anything

Magik's slave

all dynamics are different. for me a M/s union just would not be effective, productive, or stable if genuine fear of the One who owned me was not a reality. this fear enhances his control over me as well as the respect i have for him. i could not respect a Mate that i did not fear. likewise, he could not own a slave or even have a submissive who did not fear him, it would tell him that he was doing something very wrong. this is not to say that i obey only out of fear, or that fear is the most important element if our relationship, because it's not. but it's something we both find necessary to make the M/s dynamic truly work.

the best analogy i can come up with is to liken it to the way some religious people view their god. they love their god, worship their god, and fear their god...because he is almighty, all-knowing and omnipresent. that is much the way i feel toward my Master.

(in reply to MagiksSlave)

RE: "Punishment"???? - 5/1/2007 9:45:08 AM

agirl

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There are physical penalties attached to some aspects of my life. I know they are there, I know what they are. I always have the choice to avoid them but I don't always do so. They aren't there so that M has an excuse to whack me, they are there for good, sensible reasons that I understand and accept.....ALL the same, there are times when I don't WANT to stick to them.

There are times when I find it HIGHLY annoying to be owned and I am a stubborn, contrary person who has a tendency to be a *slave to the moment*. I didn't stop being those things when I became his.

The penalties have curbed me an awful lot, I weigh up the benefit of staying up for half an hour ( for example) with the cost of one stroke per minute and almost always choose to go to bed. Almost, but not always. I sometimes simply forget the time and leap into bed cursing and cross that I've been so daft. No matter what, the penalty applies.

He COULD have a good old chat with me about how it's not terribly good for me to stay up late and I'd agree with him. I already know that and he KNOWS that I know it. I wouldn't be any more likely to do it at times. And we BOTH know that.

These things are best seen with the whole picture in place and the results in view. It might not work in some relationships but it works in this one. I am not an s-type, I don't live to please M but regardless of that, he owns me. I don't obey to please him most of the time, I obey because it's the best thing for me to do.....either because it makes sense, or because there's a big stick in his hand....as far as he's concerned, it doesn't matter which.

He knows and handles me with the skill of someone that has studied their subject......it doesn't HAVE to make sense to anyone else, it only has to make sense to us.

agirl

(in reply to mistoferin)

RE: "Punishment"???? - 5/1/2007 12:03:48 PM

CreativeDominant

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quote:

ORIGINAL: agirl

There are physical penalties attached to some aspects of my life. I know they are there, I know what they are. I always have the choice to avoid them but I don't always do so. They aren't there so that M has an excuse to whack me, they are there for good, sensible reasons that I understand and accept.....ALL the same, there are times when I don't WANT to stick to them.

There are times when I find it HIGHLY annoying to be owned and I am a stubborn, contrary person who has a tendency to be a *slave to the moment*. I didn't stop being those things when I became his.

The penalties have curbed me an awful lot, I weigh up the benefit of staying up for half an hour ( for example) with the cost of one stroke per minute and almost always choose to go to bed. Almost, but not always. I sometimes simply forget the time and leap into bed cursing and cross that I've been so daft. No matter what, the penalty applies.

He COULD have a good old chat with me about how it's not terribly good for me to stay up late and I'd agree with him. I already know that and he KNOWS that I know it. I wouldn't be any more likely to do it at times. And we BOTH know that.

These things are best seen with the whole picture in place and the results in view. It might not work in some relationships but it works in this one. I am not an s-type, I don't live to please M but regardless of that, he owns me. I don't obey to please him most of the time, I obey because it's the best thing for me to do.....either because it makes sense, or because there's a big stick in his hand....as far as he's concerned, it doesn't matter which.

He knows and handles me with the skill of someone that has studied their subject......it doesn't HAVE to make sense to anyone else, it only has to make sense to us.

agirl

Actually...it does make sense and something I wanted to note. There are submissives who will be contrary for many reasons...being a grown-up themselves, wanting to do something for their own reasons rather than following the dominant's rules, etc. None of these may be serious enough as to be a direct challenge or deliberate challenge to the dominant but still, they do not serve the agreed-upon dynamic. As you noted, the dominant COULD sit down again and have a good talk with them and they would nod and agree that "Yes", he's right...and then sometime in the near future, do it again. And then you are right back to the whole go-around. Sometimes, discipline/punishment are in place to serve the dynamic...these are the rules, these are what you agreed to, you have not done so and there has been more than one instance and so, discipline...if agreed to at the start of the dynamic...takes place.

(in reply to agirl)

RE: "Punishment"???? - 5/1/2007 1:14:18 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

I know there are some that say "I am an adult...tell me what is wrong and I will correct it" but in all honesty, that does not always happen.

And there it is, the difference between theory and reality. If a dominant tells a submissive to change some behavior, to correct it and she does... fine, no need for punishment. When, however, that submissive fails to do so, punishment can provide that extra bit of motivation to make the change. If the submissive, having not changed the behavior and refuses to accept the punishment... so far as I am concerned, she knows where the door is, and don't come back.

Rules are rules, and I do not play games with them. If I say do something, I expect it done... or else. One way or the other there will be a consequence. Something any would be "slave" ought to consider before chasing after my collar.

All this talk about being an "adult" and being too old for punishment is just a lot of hot air... if you're an adult, then act like it and don't give the dominant a reason to punish you. If a submissive can actually do that, terrific, so much the better (personally I dislike handing out punishments, its not fun for me). But be honest folks, the topic of punishment would not be an issue if submissives were not at some point breaking rules. If you were breaking no rules then there would be no call for punishment. If there is some punishment being handed out, you brought it on yourself. Cries of being an "adult" and too old are piss poor excuses because if you're that grown up you ought to have known better and ought to have been more responsible.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to CreativeDominant)

RE: "Punishment"???? - 5/1/2007 2:59:22 PM

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Joined: 4/2/2007
Status: offline

quote:

CreativeDominant:

Life will teach most people what they need to learn but if part of the job of dominance is guidance, then that guidance includes teaching your submissive the consequences of wrongful behavior. I know there are some that say "I am an adult...tell me what is wrong and I will correct it" but in all honesty, that does not always happen.

quote:

Stranger1:

Part of the attraction of D/s is the structured responsibility/consequence so lacking in mundane life these days.

For some submissives, and I'm one of them, the idea of being accountable to someone who has the authority to impose consequences is a major attraction of D/s. I thrive when there is a disciplinarian in my life and can accomplish things that just don't get done when left to my own volition. I just don't have the self-discipline I'm not proud to say. Telling me to correct my behavior usually does not work but imposing an unpleasant consequence for disobeying does work.

quote:

Stranger1:

In a world that increasingly shies away from taking personal accoutability seriously-the buck stops with that guy with the wooden spoon in his hand.

...or with that woman with a hairbrush, paddle or cane in her hand.

(in reply to Stranger1)

RE: "Punishment"???? - 5/1/2007 3:16:10 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: daddysprop247

quote:

ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave

but why in the world would you want to be afraid of your Master... I dont understand honest it just seems like such a negative thing why would you want it??? I always thought the opposit was what people wanted, that you shouldnt be afraid of your Master... So Im confused..

Im sorry to put you on the spot or if this sounded bad or anything

Magik's slave

all dynamics are different. for me a M/s union just would not be effective, productive, or stable if genuine fear of the One who owned me was not a reality. this fear enhances his control over me as well as the respect i have for him. i could not respect a Mate that i did not fear. likewise, he could not own a slave or even have a submissive who did not fear him, it would tell him that he was doing something very wrong. this is not to say that i obey only out of fear, or that fear is the most important element if our relationship, because it's not. but it's something we both find necessary to make the M/s dynamic truly work.

the best analogy i can come up with is to liken it to the way some religious people view their god. they love their god, worship their god, and fear their god...because he is almighty, all-knowing and omnipresent. that is much the way i feel toward my Master.

Thank you fory trying to explain I guess its your own personal preference, I dont understand but I dont think I would be able to no matter how it was explained

Magik's slave

_____________________________

If you’re going through hell keep on moving
don't slow down
if you’re scared dont show it
you might get out
before the devil even knows your there.

-Rodney Atkins-

(in reply to daddysprop247)

RE: "Punishment"???? - 5/1/2007 4:37:18 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

I know there are some that say "I am an adult...tell me what is wrong and I will correct it" but in all honesty, that does not always happen.

And there it is, the difference between theory and reality. If a dominant tells a submissive to change some behavior, to correct it and she does... fine, no need for punishment. When, however, that submissive fails to do so, punishment can provide that extra bit of motivation to make the change. If the submissive, having not changed the behavior and refuses to accept the punishment... so far as I am concerned, she knows where the door is, and don't come back.

Rules are rules, and I do not play games with them. If I say do something, I expect it done... or else. One way or the other there will be a consequence. Something any would be "slave" ought to consider before chasing after my collar.

All this talk about being an "adult" and being too old for punishment is just a lot of hot air... if you're an adult, then act like it and don't give the dominant a reason to punish you. If a submissive can actually do that, terrific, so much the better (personally I dislike handing out punishments, its not fun for me). But be honest folks, the topic of punishment would not be an issue if submissives were not at some point breaking rules. If you were breaking no rules then there would be no call for punishment. If there is some punishment being handed out, you brought it on yourself. Cries of being an "adult" and too old are piss poor excuses because if you're that grown up you ought to have known better and ought to have been more responsible.

So perfectly said

_____________________________

If I said something to offend you, please tell me what it was so that I can say it again later.

(in reply to Padriag)

RE: "Punishment"???? - 5/1/2007 5:18:02 PM

CreativeDominant

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

quote:

ORIGINAL: CreativeDominant

I know there are some that say "I am an adult...tell me what is wrong and I will correct it" but in all honesty, that does not always happen.

And there it is, the difference between theory and reality. If a dominant tells a submissive to change some behavior, to correct it and she does... fine, no need for punishment. When, however, that submissive fails to do so, punishment can provide that extra bit of motivation to make the change. If the submissive, having not changed the behavior and refuses to accept the punishment... so far as I am concerned, she knows where the door is, and don't come back.

Rules are rules, and I do not play games with them. If I say do something, I expect it done... or else. One way or the other there will be a consequence. Something any would be "slave" ought to consider before chasing after my collar.

All this talk about being an "adult" and being too old for punishment is just a lot of hot air... if you're an adult, then act like it and don't give the dominant a reason to punish you. If a submissive can actually do that, terrific, so much the better (personally I dislike handing out punishments, its not fun for me). But be honest folks, the topic of punishment would not be an issue if submissives were not at some point breaking rules. If you were breaking no rules then there would be no call for punishment. If there is some punishment being handed out, you brought it on yourself. Cries of being an "adult" and too old are piss poor excuses because if you're that grown up you ought to have known better and ought to have been more responsible.

Exactly, Padriag. And you can see my agreement in this in what I posted in my next post in response to agirl about punishment and discipline serving the dynamics of the relationship...something that many submissives say that they want...right up to, for many, the moment that the time comes.

(in reply to Padriag)

RE: "Punishment"???? - 5/1/2007 5:24:50 PM

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quote:

Cries of being an "adult" and too old are piss poor excuses because if you're that grown up you ought to have known better and ought to have been more responsible.

Are you suggesting that dominants never err?

quote:

All this talk about being an "adult" and being too old for punishment is just a lot of hot air... if you're an adult, then act like it and don't give the dominant a reason to punish you. If a submissive can actually do that, terrific, so much the better (personally I dislike handing out punishments, its not fun for me). But be honest folks, the topic of punishment would not be an issue if submissives were not at some point breaking rules.

This argument is where it breaks down for me.
Despite the fact that D/s is not an egalitarian relationship, I do believe that I am just as capable of learning from my mistakes in the same manner a dominant learns from theirs.

_____________________________

"Power is real. But it's a lot less real if it's not perceived as power."
Robert Parker, Stranger in Paradise

(in reply to Padriag)

RE: "Punishment"???? - 5/7/2007 10:00:13 AM

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From: Victoria, Canada
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This is how it was broken down to me, and so this is how i view this area

There is Play - this can be painful or soft, but generaly always fun for both parties

there is Training - this is generaly painful, but the smarter i am at learning the sooner this is over with

There is Disciplin - this is when ive done somethign wrong and need to be corrected, i am not allowed to go into subspace when this happens and thankfully i havnt had to be disciplined often

then there is Punishment - punishment is the last, or near the last straw, it will be unpleasent for all parties involved and would require a big transgression, which may or may not lead to the letting go of the submissive afterwards, very emotional and physicaly harsh

but thats just in the world i play in

_____________________________

Pain can be endured and defeated only if it is embraced.
Denied or feared it grows in perception if not in reality

(in reply to catize)

RE: "Punishment"???? - 5/7/2007 4:39:34 PM

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To me, a punishment is never positive. It is only done to decrease the amount of activity of a behavior/or extinguish it.

I do not enjoy punishments whether physical or otherwise.

For me, I beat myself up far more than a Dominant ever could in the face of my transgressions.

If punishments were ineffective parents would not do it with their children.

(in reply to mistoferin)

RE: "Punishment"???? - 5/7/2007 4:43:11 PM

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Joined: 1/5/2005
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If punishments were effective, jails would not be over flowing as they do.

_____________________________

If you love somebody, you have to be willing to break them.

Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach.

Have you slapped your slave today?

(in reply to soulfulkitten)

RE: "Punishment"???? - 5/7/2007 7:05:13 PM

Aswad

Posts: 9374
Joined: 4/4/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sweetnurseBBW

Physical punishment is not a deterent for me.

How far have such physical punishments gone, that you assert they cannot be a deterrent?

quote:

For me realizing what I have done and knowing the disappointment I have caused is discipline for me.

This kind of internalization often (usually?) happens at some point along the way. But it depends on the kind of relationship you have, and how your wiring is set up.

quote:

Some people I guess lack guidance and need someone to tell them to be truly sorry for something they have to experience physical pain.

This could be construed as implying that those who employ physical punishments are incapable of remorse and/or contrition, which might be seen as insulting...

Physical pain can be used in conditioning, and it can also be used as a way to "settle" the matter so that everyone involved can move on with their lives and not think about what happened, in the sense of alleviating guilt, remorse and so forth, as well as the Dom feeling redressed or whatever.

In short, physical punishments can offer closure for both parties, as well as a deterrent.

It does not imply anything one way or the other about the parties' maturity, capacity for detecting their own mistakes and learning from them, or desire to do better. Whether it is useful for you is another matter; each couple is different. For some, it can even be a kind of "kink" or a style element in the sense that it is felt to be "right" or "appropriate".

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to sweetnurseBBW)

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