RE: o====·.,¸,.-·<ŦHΞ LΞGÂL BΞÂGÂLo====·.,¸,.-·<sniffing out legal news of BDSM interest

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All Forums >> [Casual Banter] >> Off the Grid >> RE: o====·.,¸,.-·<ŦHΞ LΞGÂL BΞÂGÂLo====·.,¸,.-·<sniffing out legal news of BDSM interest

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RE: o====·.,¸,.-·<ŦHΞ LΞGÂL BΞÂGÂLo====·.... - 6/7/2004 6:45:00 AM

Posts: 127
Joined: 4/28/2004
From: Delaware
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressDREAD

You need to get Your facts straight
the Owners of the dungeon were not the
7 year olds Parents first off.

The owners were not the parents of the 7 yr old...HOWEVER...

They did allow children to be in the home while "entertaining" and engaged in BDSM activities.

You see, I have this protective nature for kids....I don't think they belong in a home where BDSM activities are going on in party fashion. If their parents were engaged in bdsm activities in their own home, where children live, that's one thing...but to allow minors in a home where a dungeon party is taking place is totally another. It not only puts the children at risk of being exposed to such things at too young an age, it puts the 'party' attendees at risk of being prosecuted for child abuse should the police arrive for some reason.

The 3 yr old lost their life because those who were supposed to be paying attention, those in authority ( the adults) were elsewhere....engaged in bdsm activities. Therefore in my opinion, the events ARE related, and the bdsm aspect is a partial cause in the lose of the child's life.

This is of course my opinion....your mileage may very.

(in reply to MistressDREAD)

RE: o====·.,¸,.-·<ŦHΞ LΞGÂL BΞÂGÂLo====·.... - 6/7/2004 8:39:43 AM

perverseangelic

Posts: 2625
Joined: 2/2/2004
From: Davis, Ca
Status: offline

all right, the case? Lawrence v. Texas, June 26, 2003

all sodomy laws in the united states are now unconstitutonal. that site offers some highlights, but there are also numerous books and law journals which cover it better.

a full transcript of the trial and decition can be found here
but be aware it's a PDF.

i've not weighed in on this subject because i wanted to see what would turn up. at first, this -did- seem like a violation of our rights to practice our sexuality as we choose, however after reading the thread, these people were not sought out because there were BDSM activities going on in their house. they were sought out because a child died in their house. they were then prosecuted because evidence of child abuse was found.

it doesn't matter, to me, whether or not that child was theirs. the abuse happened under their roof, and i think at their hands, in conjuction with illegal drug use. they would have been tried if a vanilla sex party, a swinger party, or even a simple non-sexual party was happening, because one child died and one was abused.

my guess on the reason for a prostitution charge? because the prosecution could make it stick. i think that might be something like the idea of getting mobsters for tax evasion. one -knows- they commited a crime, but cannot arrest them for that crime because it is unlikely they will get convicted.

i believe that everyone has a right to enact their sexuality almost totally as they see fit, but i believe that -overt- sexual conduct should not occur in front of children, untill those children have come to it of their own accord.

(edited b/c html doesn't work here)

< Message edited by perverseangelic -- 6/7/2004 8:42:35 AM >

(in reply to indigo302)

RE: o====·.,¸,.-·<ŦHΞ LΞGÂL BΞÂGÂLo====·.... - 6/7/2004 11:27:43 AM

Posts: 2943
Joined: 1/1/2004
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actually there was no BDSM activity going on when the 3 yr old drowned at the hands of the 7 yr old. The gran parents were not even present in the home. The father of the 3 yr old whom lived next door was the one whom was left in charge of the children and while he was doing drugs in his home the children went next door to the gran parents home and this is where the killing occured. at this time the home where the pool was located was searched and the dungeon was found and the other parapanelia including tapes of session which was used against the Owners of the home whom had not been a part of the drowning but because their home was searched after the drowning other facts came into play of both of these familys that lived next to one another. And it is a fact that if this house dident have a BDSM dungeon in it there would not be presently a case to be seen in front of the supreme court to address ALL PEOPLES rights in the USA to Own a Dungeon. This is the issue that I originally was
addressing as the Writer of the Article I posted. I am not making the issue of the sad case of the children behind this case to be anyless, it is not but because sumone abused sumone with in a Lifestyle that I practice it does not make Me or anyone else reading this a bad person nor an Abuser of children nor of My Lifestyle and I do not like anyone tempting to take My Rights away from Me by a Constitutional Amemenment just as I dident like the temp to do the same when Guns were tempted to be taken away in the same manner because of the misuse of sum abusers and preditors of guns. Our Constitutional Rights are brow beat at every turn by such cases and the bigger picture of whats going on needs to be seen instead of not seeing the tree for the forest is all that I am saying JMO.
not so very long ago.

(in reply to perverseangelic)

RE: o====·.,¸,.-·<ŦHΞ LΞGÂL BΞÂGÂLo====·.... - 6/7/2004 11:31:50 AM

Posts: 2943
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline

WOO HOOOO
perverseangelic
GREAT JOB!!!
But now You left
Me with gaining
a new Legal Beagal
item to address. I
dident think that
one person would
answer the question
for everyone in every
state so quick. BUT
I am glad to know
that there are others
out there whom do keep
up with the laws that
effect Our Lifestyle ways.
~smiles~

(in reply to MistressDREAD)

RE: o====·.,¸,.-·<ŦHΞ LΞGÂL BΞÂGÂLo====·.... - 6/7/2004 1:23:43 PM

perverseangelic

Posts: 2625
Joined: 2/2/2004
From: Davis, Ca
Status: offline

why thank you :)

i followed it primarially as an issue for the queer community, which is a community i'm very active in, but i definiatly know the implications for the BDSM community.

thank heavens the supreme court got its butt in gear, no? now we just gotta make same-gendered marriages legal.

(in reply to MistressDREAD)

RE: o====·.,¸,.-·<ŦHΞ LΞGÂL BΞÂGÂLo====·.... - 6/7/2004 6:36:35 PM

Posts: 6142
Joined: 1/31/2004
From: Washington
Status: offline

quote:

actually there was no BDSM activity going on when the 3 yr old drowned at the hands of the 7 yr old. The gran parents were not even present in the home.

MistressDread you have mentioned this and a few other facts that i didn't read in my research of the case, do you have a source other than the news articles available on the internet? Do you know what the "eight guests" were doing at the time of the drowning? Thank you.

_____________________________

proudsub

"Without goals you become what you were. With goals you become what you wish." .

"You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts"--Alan Greenspan

(in reply to MistressDREAD)

RE: o====·.,¸,.-·<ŦHΞ LΞGÂL BΞÂGÂLo====·.... - 6/7/2004 8:37:07 PM

Posts: 127
Joined: 4/28/2004
From: Delaware
Status: offline

http://www.afonsolaw.com/Hunsinger.htm

An interesting look at things.....

quote:

In addition to promoting prostitution, the Hunsingers had been charged with endangering the welfare of a child for having the 7-year-old in a home where she could be exposed to their materials and lifestyle, as well as witness tampering for allegedly telling the child to not cooperate with investigators.

If they honestly felt they'd done nothing wrong, why on earth try to get the 7 yr old to not cooperate or lie?

quote:

According to a statement read in court yesterday, Assistant Prosecutor Howard Gilfert said the Hunsingers - the couple married after their arrests -

According to several reports, the couple had lived together several years prior to their arrest and yet married after their arrests.....perhaps so one could not be forced to testify against the other??? Why would that be?

(in reply to proudsub)

RE: o====·.,¸,.-·<ŦHΞ LΞGÂL BΞÂGÂLo====·.... - 6/7/2004 8:43:06 PM

Posts: 127
Joined: 4/28/2004
From: Delaware
Status: offline

quote:

at this time the home where the pool was located was searched and the dungeon was found and the other parapanelia including tapes of session which was used against the Owners of the home whom had not been a part of the drowning but because their home was searched after the drowning other facts came into play of both of these familys that lived next to one another.

Actually, the house was searched after it was determined that the 3 yr old had been sexually abused....not simply because of her death. And yes, when there is sexual abuse, it's all fair game in my book.

(in reply to MistressDREAD)

RE: o====·.,¸,.-·<ŦHΞ LΞGÂL BΞÂGÂLo====·.... - 6/7/2004 11:12:31 PM

Posts: 3314
Joined: 1/1/2004
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Some people will use any occasion to push their agenda. What we have here are criminals. Child abusers and drug addicts.
Yet they are being touted by some as crusaders for our rights. These people don't represent me. They are criminals.
This is what happens when an agenda is pushed. In this society, some actions are wrong. And that trumps any rights we have. We don't have the right to abuse children. And whether you own a dungeon or not makes no difference. How anyone can make the dungeon the focal point of this story is a mystery to me.

(in reply to indigo302)

RE: o====·.,¸,.-·<ŦHΞ LΞGÂL BΞÂGÂLo====·.... - 6/9/2004 2:52:50 AM

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Joined: 1/1/2004
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Its the Focal Point Estring because
this is whats being brought befor
the supreme court. The case of
Peoples rights to have Dungeons.
Not the CHild Abuse
Not the Drug Additcs
Not the Murder
These People do Not I would hope
represent anyone of Us but the fact
remains that Their case is going to
make Law that ALL OF US must live
by and that makes it Our business.

(in reply to Estring)

RE: o====·.,¸,.-·<ŦHΞ LΞGÂL BΞÂGÂLo====·.... - 6/12/2004 12:24:53 AM

Posts: 1005
Joined: 3/31/2004
From: Sacramento, California
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring
Some people will use any occasion to push their agenda. What we have here are criminals. Child abusers and drug addicts.
Yet they are being touted by some as crusaders for our rights. These people don't represent me. They are criminals.
This is what happens when an agenda is pushed. In this society, some actions are wrong. And that trumps any rights we have. We don't have the right to abuse children. And whether you own a dungeon or not makes no difference. How anyone can make the dungeon the focal point of this story is a mystery to me.

Not sure about the agenda thing - must be missing something - not too surprising, considering.

Anyway, I don't care who were the parents, sexual abuse is sexual abuse. Strapping a kid to a wheel, which a paper said the guy was *charged* with - doesn't need to appear in 3 papers for me to believe it, I'm assuming the police report - which would be a matter of public record would be all that is required to see if they were in fact CHARGED with that - I'm assuming the investigators here would be able to get their hands on that document for additional discussion of what they might have actually been charged with if the papers are being questioned as to their validity of reporting.

If it didn't make it to court, it doesn't mean it didn't happen - if they were charged with it, then someone likely SAID something that they later shut up about. And they didn't bring it up in court because they couldn't make it stick, so would have been wasted to even try.

The fact is, these kids were ABUSED. This means they aren't the only ones. I'm glad the child was removed from the home, I hope she gets tons of therapy, and a loving home.

At no time does it make it okay - BDSM lifestyle be DAMNED if it means choosing between it and a child being abused, as far as I am concerned, kids are the highest priority humans have. I'll choose the kid every single time.

They do NOT represent me either. In fact I denounce them as being related to me in ANY shape or form, and I sincerely wish they'd gotten a LIFE sentence. Leaving kids in YOUR home on YOUR premises with other people simply is stupid, and yes, it makes YOU fully accountable, period. *Especially* with a pool.

And too if they'd done nothing wrong they'd not needed the 7 year old to shut up. People that try to get their kids to shut up to the police are HIDING something. And I have no doubt in my heart that the sexual abuse was known and condoned in that household - in my experience with abused kids and with drug addicts, the parents or guardians are ALWAYS training the children to remain quiet and keep the family secrets - the pure act of them trying to get the kid to shut up says it ALL for me. Shit was going on around children that SHOULDN'T have been. Period.

Anyone that defends creeps like this as far as I'm concerned is unbalanced and unstable and prolly sees nothing wrong with whatever the children were likely subjected to and that to me says they'd likely feel that doing those things were *okay*. So thus, I'd group them in the same boat and hope that someone brings them down a hell of a lot harder than these assholes were.

THREE years old and sexually abused! My god, such a short life and to be filled with such pain - just fucking wrong. Anyone that condones that is just as sick as the person that does it.

Makes me ill. Literally. Poor kids. Breaks my heart.

Yes this is my opinion, and yes it's a VERY strong one. If you don't like it, wah.

If that was MY kid - I'd be the one arrested - for murder, flat out. I'd destroy someone that did that to my kid, police had better get to ME first to restrain me - all I gotta say.

~ShadeDiva

_____________________________

~ShadeDiva
My projects of love:
theFetishForums
HumanFauna
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(in reply to Estring)

RE: o====·.,¸,.-·<ŦHΞ LΞGÂL BΞÂGÂLo====·.... - 6/12/2004 12:31:43 AM

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You are right on Shade. As far as the agenda, what I am talking about is the people who are pushing this as an example of our rights being trampled on. The ones who are making the dungeon discovery as the focal point. Their agenda is anything goes. It doesn't. The only rights trampled on in this case were the rights of children to be safe.

(in reply to ShadeDiva)

RE: o====·.,¸,.-·<ŦHΞ LΞGÂL BΞÂGÂLo====·.... - 6/12/2004 12:36:52 AM

Posts: 1005
Joined: 3/31/2004
From: Sacramento, California
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Sorry, Estring, I all quoted you - then replied to some posts that were posted after my last reply - not saying they were things YOU said, lol, just started replying to them all.

I quoted you because I agreed with what you said, and then promptly forgot to SAY that LOL!

So this is what I was goona say to the quoted portion:

Bravo! Well said. I concur wholeheartedly!

~ShadeDiva

_____________________________

~ShadeDiva
My projects of love:
theFetishForums
HumanFauna
Kinked
DommeWorld

(in reply to ShadeDiva)

RE: o====·.,¸,.-·<ŦHΞ LΞGÂL BΞÂGÂLo====·.... - 6/12/2004 12:44:10 AM

Posts: 1005
Joined: 3/31/2004
From: Sacramento, California
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Estring
You are right on Shade. As far as the agenda, what I am talking about is the people who are pushing this as an example of our rights being trampled on. The ones who are making the dungeon discovery as the focal point. Their agenda is anything goes. It doesn't. The only rights trampled on in this case were the rights of children to be safe.

Hmmmmm.

I didn't see that myself sooooooo it *has* to be the only person I've sacrificed to Goddes Ignora. LOL. Who was posting copiously in this thread.

Since I didn't really see that all in everyone I could read - gotta be the person I killed off, shoulda made that connection before I posted originally, my apologies.

Next time I'll just assume if someone is saying something is happening that I don't see and the person I've sacrificed is posting furiously in that thread I'll just attribute it to them and disregard it as I have the person it's originating from.

My bad - should have be quicker on the uptake with that one.

~ShadeDiva

_____________________________

~ShadeDiva
My projects of love:
theFetishForums
HumanFauna
Kinked
DommeWorld

(in reply to Estring)

RE: o====·.,¸,.-·<ŦHΞ LΞGÂL BΞÂGÂLo====·.... - 6/15/2004 4:20:15 PM

Posts: 729
Joined: 1/11/2004
Status: offline

quote:

oooh no You three are not gonna get off that
easy with hearsay
show ME CASE LAW to support such or the
articles your storys
hail from.

To that line of thought Dread, I recall another string where you stated several times you not only had contracts stand up, but were awarded large sums. It was asked then for the case #'s by someone who wanted to research it (Shade I think, but I could be wrong). Do you have those for those of us who would like to see cases where contracts of slavery were held up? Granted, you said the contracts were actually those of servitude, not slavery, (or something to that effect), so the part I am curious to see is how the court dealt with (or addressed) things like punishment, ect.

_____________________________

Sandy

Don't take life too seriously, no one gets out alive anyway...

(in reply to MistressDREAD)

RE: o====·.,¸,.-·<ŦHΞ LΞGÂL BΞÂGÂLo====·.... - 6/16/2004 2:59:54 AM

Posts: 1005
Joined: 3/31/2004
From: Sacramento, California
Status: offline

Nope not me,,, maybe Kiss?

Duck duck duck duck .....

Who da goose?

lol

~ShadeDiva

_____________________________

~ShadeDiva
My projects of love:
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HumanFauna
Kinked
DommeWorld

(in reply to EStrict)

RE: o====·.,¸,.-·<ŦHΞ LΞGÂL BΞÂGÂLo====·.... - 6/22/2004 10:38:23 PM

Posts: 2943
Joined: 1/1/2004
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ahhhhhh but EStrict
My simple cases are
not going to make
supreme court law
that effects ALL OF
US in ALTERNATE
LIFESTYLES! And
My post on My
personal experiance
is not a part of the
Legal Beagal nor
makes case law.
~smiles~ Ohhh
yessss and I
will post My information
when I am ready and
not befor EStrict. See
its not just MY contracts
but others involved whom
I have yet to gain their
permissions to show such.

(in reply to ShadeDiva)

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