RE: When Patriots are Blind (Full Version)

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puella -> RE: When Patriots are Blind (5/5/2007 7:53:14 AM)

What on earth made you say something so idiotic?

I am one of the 'intellectual lefties' you are speaking of.  I also have my brother, and several other family members in the military (and in Iraq).  I would assume your blanket statement is attempting to tell me that I do not love my family?  Or support my family?

Think before you make statements.



farglebargle -> RE: When Patriots are Blind (5/5/2007 7:58:59 AM)

Well, Puella, you know it's not an original thought, he's just working off the talking-points he's been given.

As I've pointed out, it's one of the dumbest things ever, as the people who REALLY SUPPORT THE TROOPS are the ones who a) WANT THEM HOME and b) HAVE AUTHORIZED OVER 100 BILLION ***MORE*** DOLLARS FOR THEM.

Since Bush didn't bother putting into the budget this year the expenses he KNEW the troops would have, what does that say about his care? This is what? The SIXTH time Bush has come looking for ADDITIONAL money on top of what he's already gotten?

When YOUR KID comes calling from college EVERY WEEKEND looking for another few hundred bucks, what do you do after the sixth call, and you've already given him a thousand dollars for him to waste on booze/coke/ecstasy/whatever?






slaveluci -> RE: When Patriots are Blind (5/5/2007 8:08:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle
quote:


If you don't stand behind our Troops...please feel free to stand in front of them

No one can possibly support the troops MORE than those who want them HOME.
OR
Any troops who die TOMORROW are YOUR FAULT BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T BRING THEM HOME TODAY.
YES!  Two great bumpersticker ideas.  i may have to have those printed up [;)].  Thanks for the ideas......luci



Real0ne -> RE: When Patriots are Blind (5/5/2007 10:07:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle

Well, Puella, you know it's not an original thought, he's just working off the talking-points he's been given.

As I've pointed out, it's one of the dumbest things ever, as the people who REALLY SUPPORT THE TROOPS are the ones who a) WANT THEM HOME and b) HAVE AUTHORIZED OVER 100 BILLION ***MORE*** DOLLARS FOR THEM.

Since Bush didn't bother putting into the budget this year the expenses he KNEW the troops would have, what does that say about his care? This is what? The SIXTH time Bush has come looking for ADDITIONAL money on top of what he's already gotten?

When YOUR KID comes calling from college EVERY WEEKEND looking for another few hundred bucks, what do you do after the sixth call, and you've already given him a thousand dollars for him to waste on booze/coke/ecstasy/whatever?







isnt double speak and double think a wonderful thing?

The first time i came really face to face with it was when someone said to me "its not you i do not like, i just do not like the way you xyz"..

My mind did an instant void, like WTF?  ITS THE SAME THING!  Granted in the case of this thread its opposites.

Supporting the troops has been propagandized by interlacing and weaving it into supporting the war, then planted into the minds of people they are synonomous. they are not!  Thus if you do not support the war you do not support the troops.

We are hit with massive propaganda now days to paralyse  our thinking and put it into a void.  The moment we listen to anything with out conscieously thinking about it it tends to become fixated in the mind even if only at the subconscious level.

double-think double- speak new-think  google it,  its the political weapon of choice now days!




popeye1250 -> RE: When Patriots are Blind (5/5/2007 10:18:08 AM)

I wasn't "for" or "against" going into Iraq.
I wondered that if we were after Bin Laden and al qeada, why were we taking a diversion into Iraq.
Also, if Bin Laden is in the mountains of E. Afganistan, W. Pakistan why aren't we going in there bigtime?
Some say we can't do that because Pakistan has nuclear weapons.
I don't think they'd try to use them knowing that we have nuclear submarines in the Indian Ocean and Medditerainian Sea.
Also, Pakistan doesn't even control that area, it's in the hands of the various tribes there who would kill Pakastani leaders if they could so I don't know how they can even lay claim to it.
It is basically a "No Man's Land." We'd be doing Pakistan a favor!
Tactically, I can understand why you wouldn't want to kill Bin Laden "first", because that would scatter his Captains, Lieutenants and Soldiers. You use Bin Laden like a "magnet" to attract his troops.
You want to work from the outside of the "circle" and work your way in, killing the Soldiers, Lt's, then Capts.
But, you never refuse a "target of opportunity."
It'll be 6 years in Sept so this has gone on way too long now.
We need to get "Super Aggressive" and if they know that there are al qeada training camps in that area we need to use *ANY* means to get them including nuclear weapons.
More likely a few dozen of those preditor drones with Sarin gas containers to spray the camps and then gunships to saturate the area with machine gun fire.
They could even say that al qeada must have been planning to use Sarin gas and "mishandled" it! lol
"Tactical" Nukes are made for a job like this.
Or, poison all the water supplies, that's very affective, they'd be in bad shape within a week. And it would be very easy to do.
However they choose to do it I think that the time to wrap this up is rapidly approaching.
It's been going on too long now.



Vendaval -> RE: When Patriots are Blind (5/5/2007 10:22:31 AM)

Spot on, NG, this is not a new problem but a long standing history that causes much strife and miserty.
 
And it will come back to bit us in the ass. 
Remember the Arms to Iran Cash to the Contras scandal of the Reagan era? 
That could well become very relevant, very soon.


quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
The US government has been overthrowing sovereign governments and installing their favoured version since at least 1953 - for all I know, it could extend beyond this date. If you want to live with a government that stays within its own borders, and respects the liberty of those outside of its own borders, then bush isn't your problem. It is the root causes of this trend  (since 1953, possibly before) that you will have to address.



Vendaval -> RE: When Patriots are Blind (5/5/2007 10:24:47 AM)

Hello smilezz,
 
I hope your Master is well and safe.  Warm regards to both of you.
 
Vendaval



quote:

ORIGINAL: smilezz

Note my tagline



popeye1250 -> RE: When Patriots are Blind (5/5/2007 10:40:08 AM)

Funny thing is, Bush was right but his timing was off; "Mission Accomplished."
We won the breif war, we caught Saddam, executed him and now it's time to get out.
There is no "War", the war was over in about two to three months, this is called an "Occupation" and that and "Rebuilding" Iraq wasn't part of the origional package.
And we're hearing the same B.S. that we heard in the last days of Vietnam; "there'll be caos if we leave" etc. etc.
Shit, now they want to sign a Trade Deal with Vietnam!
I don't believe ANYTHING Bush says anymore!
If he said it was dark outside I'd go to the window and check first!
How much longer does he think we should stay, another 10 years?
*THE IRAQIS* have to take control of their own country and much to the chagrin of Bush it probably will NOT be anything close to a "Democracy."



Real0ne -> RE: When Patriots are Blind (5/5/2007 10:42:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

The US government has been overthrowing sovereign governments and installing their favoured version since at least 1953 - for all I know, it could extend beyond this date. If you want to live with a government that stays within its own borders, and respects the liberty of those outside of its own borders, then bush isn't your problem. It is the root causes of this trend  (since 1953, possibly before) that you will have to address. 


Yeh all the NON-CONSPIRACY KOOKS!!!!!





Real0ne -> RE: When Patriots are Blind (5/5/2007 11:14:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
There is no "War", the war was over in about two to three months, this is called an "Occupation" and that and "Rebuilding" Iraq wasn't part of the origional package.


i thought occupation and rebuilding were the same thing? err by their definition that is.

i believe everything gw says... to be lies! i believe him equally as much as i did clinton and those before them.



smilezz -> RE: When Patriots are Blind (5/5/2007 12:16:25 PM)

Good Afternoon Ma'am,

Thank you kindly.  I will pass this on to Thorns also.

Hope you enjoy your day....

~smilezz~



minnetar -> RE: When Patriots are Blind (5/5/2007 2:58:36 PM)

Beautifully written.  i couldn't agree with You more.

minnetar



Sinergy -> RE: When Patriots are Blind (5/5/2007 6:53:24 PM)

I never supported the war.  I have witnesses.

The reasons I did not support the war have not changed in all the years we have been at war.

I have been trashed by people telling me I do not support the troops, almost the entire time, both here and elsewhere.  Unfortunately, history has proven that my reasons for not wanting us to go to war turned out to
be valid.  I wish this were not the case.

As farglebargle points out, if you support keeping them in Iraq in harms way, then every death or injury they receive is on your hands, not mine, because I first wanted them to not be sent and then I wanted them back home.

Feel free to pass on my sentiments and my regards to Thorns, smilezz.

Sienrgy



minnetar -> RE: When Patriots are Blind (5/5/2007 7:03:00 PM)

Sinergy congrats   Always on your highhorse instead of saying something that was well written and saying the same thing which was written.

minnetar



Sinergy -> RE: When Patriots are Blind (5/5/2007 7:07:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: minnetar

Sinergy congrats   Always on your highhorse instead of saying something that was well written and saying the same thing which was written.

minnetar



Is there a particular reason you have decided, this evening, to follow me from thread to thread attacking me, minnetar?

Sinergy



smilezz -> RE: When Patriots are Blind (5/5/2007 7:14:30 PM)

quote:

Feel free to pass on my sentiments and my regards to Thorns, smilezz.


Good evening Sinergy,

I will do just that......thank you.
Hope you enjoy your evening,

~smilezz~



juliaoceania -> RE: When Patriots are Blind (5/5/2007 7:22:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: puella

What on earth made you say something so idiotic?

I am one of the 'intellectual lefties' you are speaking of.  I also have my brother, and several other family members in the military (and in Iraq).  I would assume your blanket statement is attempting to tell me that I do not love my family?  Or support my family?

Think before you make statements.


My parents protested during Vietnam, I have mentioned this before on the forums. They did so because my uncle was in harm's way...it never negatively impacted their relationship with him.

It is very sad that some people mistake patriotism for blind allegiance to a political figure... these two things are not synonymous. I do not see Bush as my commander and chief to me as a civilian, he is the American president. He is not to be insulated from critique in my mind because he started a war... a war that many people (including myself) tried to pressure their representatives from signing on to.

I just want them home, safe and sound. I have marched next to mothers with kids in Iraq, and children with parents in Iraq. I cannot imagine anyone attacking people that feel they are taking a stand for those they love that are unable to voice their opinions as freely.



Sinergy -> RE: When Patriots are Blind (5/5/2007 7:35:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: smilezz

quote:

Feel free to pass on my sentiments and my regards to Thorns, smilezz.


Good evening Sinergy,

I will do just that......thank you.
Hope you enjoy your evening,

~smilezz~



julia mentioned that your significant other is in Iraq.

Please wish him a safe return for us.

Sinergy



Manawyddan -> RE: When Patriots are Blind (5/12/2007 6:41:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy
I have been trashed by people telling me I do not support the troops, almost the entire time, both here and elsewhere. Unfortunately, history has proven that my reasons for not wanting us to go to war turned out to be valid. I wish this were not the case.


That's one of the arguments I continuously make to the conservatives in my office, and they always shrug and nod but refuse to admit any mistake.

Essentially: Everything that's occured in Iraq was predicted by the left-wing press. It was the conservative press who said it would be cheap and easy and over with in six months.

So whose talking points should I believe now?



FirmhandKY -> RE: When Patriots are Blind (5/12/2007 10:47:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Manawyddan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy
I have been trashed by people telling me I do not support the troops, almost the entire time, both here and elsewhere. Unfortunately, history has proven that my reasons for not wanting us to go to war turned out to be valid. I wish this were not the case.


That's one of the arguments I continuously make to the conservatives in my office, and they always shrug and nod but refuse to admit any mistake.

Essentially: Everything that's occured in Iraq was predicted by the left-wing press. It was the conservative press who said it would be cheap and easy and over with in six months.

So whose talking points should I believe now?


Manawyddan,

No offense, but I will take your post in order to discuss an often stated truism with which I disagree.

That truism that "I support the troops, I just don't support the war."

The cold hard fact of the matter is that the majority of the troops - especially the warriors at the point of the spear - have the desire for victory as their foremost goal.

"Opposing the war" automatically means that you do not seek victory, you seek something less. 

This belief then, is not supporting what "the troops" wish, and fight for.

Therefore, "I support the troops, I just don't support the war." is an oxymoronic statement.

I've seen few people who have bothered to follow the inevitable logic to it's conclusion.  Merc is the best example that comes to mind, and I've got a deep respect for his ability to make a statement, and then follow the logical chain of reasoning to it's ultimate end.

For those people who constantly attempt to hide and disguise their non-support of the troops by making a non-existent distinction between "the war" and "the troops", I have much less respect for.

For most such people, I don't really believe that they are trying to dissemble, I just think that they are attempting to avoid an unpleasant realization, and the "Support the troops, not the war." is the best way out of the pain of the cognitive dissonance that they have.

FirmKY



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