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RE: Turning every thread into a political debate - 5/13/2007 8:14:58 AM   
susie


Posts: 1699
Joined: 11/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Hmmm, wonders where anyone got the idea I was calling them an asshole? I was simply saying my Daddy is not one...


Now I do not care if you agree with me or not. My life goes on swimmingly no matter what your personal opinion is. I would suggest that you not sign up for such classes. I plan on having my son take the class myself, which is my perogative as a parent, just as other parents exercise their perogative....I would not give my child a gun for example, lots of people do things with their children I do not agree with, but you know, I think that each parent should do what they like. I used to take my son to R rated movies for nudity when he was 9 years old... lots of people thought that was wrong too, and I cared as much about their opinion as I care about yours.
 
I care about what people I love think, and marginally what people that can impact my income think.

You know when I was 13 my mom would have me read these true crime mags about girls being raped and murdered and tortured. It was deeply disturbing for me, but it might have kept me alive to know there are some very evil people that do  very evil things. I do not know if you have ever read one of these mags, but the pictures in them with the descriptions are disgustingly sick. In my opinion reading about these heinous acts is at least as disturbing as having a grown man tell me he wants to do me in the ass.

When I was 13 I went on an air force base with my brother (he is a vet). I was waiting for him when this big drunk airman came up to me and made all sorts of inappropriate comments to me, making comments about my "tits" and "ass" how he wanted to "fuck me"... you know I wish I had some sort of training to deal with that, all I could do was look around for someone to help me, and there was no one. I am sure I am not the only 14 year old that has had to deal with inappropriate language from an adult male. In fact some 14 year olds look much older than their years (like me, I have been 5 foot 10 and a D cup since I was 13... this is why my mom made sure I read those mags at that age)

Now your opinion is yours. I will note it is not founded in having attended the class, on any sort  of material about how to train teens in self defense, or on any sort of psychological impact study. My opinion is based upon reading and on seeing this work in action and seeing how it is done.


You are right Julia my opinion is mine and one that I am perfectly entitled to post. It is not founded on attending classes such as that as I have never felt the need to go to one. I do not need to attend one to know that in MY OPINION speak like that to a child of 14 is unacceptable. In the UK if an adult male spoke to a 14 year old girl in that manner he would be arrested. If you think it is appropriate so be it. Others here do not.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 241
RE: Turning every thread into a political debate - 5/13/2007 8:21:49 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline 		julia, I believe that most women have experienced some sort of "verbal sexual assault" at some point in their lives....myself not excluded. I do not see the relevance to my stance.

It really surprises me that you answer with "I really do not care" as such a statement contradicts the voracity with which you have been debating.

You feel I was being snarky and making barbed comments to you...and I will make no attempt to correct your assumption because that is exactly what I was doing. But at least julia, I can be honest and say that and not profess to be innocent or misunderstood.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 242
RE: Turning every thread into a political debate - 5/13/2007 8:27:39 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: darkinshadows

(This is fast reply - and not directed to you julia)
 
"Won't some one please - remember the children!"
*place hand to forehead and act dramatically...
 
I am never - ever ceased to be amazed by peoples complete inability to understand how to actually talk to a teenager these days.
Lets all wrap them up in cotton wool and never ever let them know that bad people exist - let alone how to handle a bad person.
 
I am amazed that people believe that when parents take their children along to see these type of self defense classes and participate - they don't actually inform their children what is involved.
 
Just because you let your child watch a film/tv/book (and yep - thats anything from jaq wilson to britneys sister or the OC - ) that can contain scenes of love, sexual inuendo and violence without explaining why these things happen, let alone how they don't have to participate if they happen to come across such, does not mean that responsible parents don't.
 
You see a few words written on a screen and start making sideways accusations and 'omgosh-how-shocking' noises.
Lets forget for a moment that teenagers come across these things on a regular basis.
Lets forget for a moment that classes like these help empower teenagers to say no and say how inappropriate such words are.
Lets forget for a moment that most teenagers aren't even aware how a person can be infected, abused or made pregnant - all for the sake of 'protecting the children'.
 
People - adults - YOU - are naive.
Don't place such a burden on your teenagers too.
 
 
Peace
 
P.S Hey Erin, how about non political debate hijaking too?



I think you are right, many parents are very uncomfortable talking with their UMs about such matters. I have pushed myself to talk to my son about things I was uncomfortable with because I wanted him to hear it from me, not from others that might not care for him. Same reason my mom stressed that I should know about unpleasant things like serial killers and what to do if I encountered one. I think that many parents (myself included) would like their children to be protected, and that is why this class is offered in some high schools, yes 14 yr olds attend high school, and are among older students... I am glad that this stuff is being taught in an environment where it can be explained to them, instead of the first time they encounter something like this that it intimidates them.

I am definitely not naive about teens, and what most have been exposed to, I also trust in parents to decide what their kids should have access to when it comes to things that are not illegal, like guns, R rated movies, and self defense courses that could save their lives. All parents must decide on their own what they think is in the best interests of their child within the law. Some of these girls may have not had boundaries to know that a man contacting them online talking in such a way is something they have the right to say "no" to. In this class they teach boundaries that women protect.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to darkinshadows)
Profile   Post #: 243
RE: Turning every thread into a political debate - 5/13/2007 9:28:45 AM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: susie
In the UK if an adult male spoke to a 14 year old girl in that manner he would be arrested.


In Texas, you could only get away with it, if you are a policeman.

(in reply to susie)
Profile   Post #: 244
RE: Turning every thread into a political debate - 5/13/2007 9:47:25 AM   
Rumtiger


Posts: 2634
Joined: 3/4/2006
From: Vegas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: susie

I do not need to attend one to know that in MY OPINION speak like that to a child of 14 is unacceptable. In the UK if an adult male spoke to a 14 year old girl in that manner he would be arrested.


I'll just say this, the context it was used was not the same as some perv coming up to the girl on the street and saying the same thing, it was in training in order to provoke a response, I dont know if it's correct to look at the two things as the same.

Now, having said that...

As someone who also taught self defense, granted to little kids not teens, and who also assisted in training adults. I can look at Sinergy's methods and maybe say "well maybe I wouldent have done that" though I can understand his methods behind it, every instructor has thier own method of teaching.

In the 14 year old's case, one matter is consent, ussualy for signing up for such a class you sign a contract stating you consent (and parents consent if applicable) to certian actions and enviroments that you will experience, obviously as Sinergy was teaching the girl at the time and her parents where right there, I can assume that such consent was given, okay thats one matter out of the way, the second matter in the way of instructing using your chosen method is if it actually works, he says it does, he talks about what his students who have been in a RL situation say, and there you go.

So in the end, looking at this as an instructor (former one anyway) I will say "well I dont know if I particularly agree with that method" or "I woudlent have thought to do that" but if I see it works, and works great, and may save a life, then I really have no room to argue the point.

_____________________________

Fuck the Pandas!
-Moi

Mmm, I love me some kickboxers, you know why? Cause ya'll cant take a punch!
- Quentin Tarantino.

If they cant take a joke, fuck em.
-Tucker Max

(in reply to susie)
Profile   Post #: 245
RE: Turning every thread into a political debate - 5/13/2007 10:29:06 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		Amongst other things JuliaOceania has done the following in this thread, one response is her standard tactic, the second is a  new response or at least one that I have not seen her use before.

The standard one is.....
when all else fails tell us how wonderful her life is and how she simply doesn't care what others say.

The new one is to say....
everybody that disagrees with  MsJO is an asshole.

Thank You !
Dont stop posting tho' MsJO cos' I like to read what you have to say.


(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 246
RE: Turning every thread into a political debate - 5/13/2007 10:47:37 AM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
In the UK it depends on the context on which the words are spoken.
Lets get real here -  it is hard enough to report a rape, let alone that someone may or may not be speaking inappropriately to another person - regardless of age/sex/orientation.
These courses do exist - yup shockhorror even in the UK - and people on them do talk to others attending, in the same manner as portrayed.
 
I think these courses can help some people, regardless of age, and it is appropriate - depending on the teen - probably because I am not taking it as personal threat to morality.
 
You may think it inappropriate.  So may some 'others'.  I and some 'others' would prefere to not group all people into a specific age bracket and believe it is more appropriate to address their maturity, the experiences they have had and the area they live.
 
'Other' people huh? - go figure.


_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to susie)
Profile   Post #: 247
RE: Turning every thread into a political debate - 5/13/2007 10:54:41 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline 		I liked the old days better, someone steps out of line with a kid and they get a good beating from the neighborhood.
No cops involved.

(in reply to darkinshadows)
Profile   Post #: 248
RE: Turning every thread into a political debate - 5/13/2007 11:05:17 AM   
darkinshadows


Posts: 4145
Joined: 6/2/2004
From: UK
Status: offline
You can't tell a child off, let alone hug one now or show concern, without fear of being sued or arrested or accused by someone without all the facts...
Ah the irony...
 
Peace


_____________________________
.dark.



...i surrender to gravity and the unknown...

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 249
RE: Turning every thread into a political debate - 5/13/2007 4:55:18 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Then there is the dojo.



What does "the dojo" have to do my job, Mercnbeth?

Whose dojo?  What dojo?  Where?  You lost me here.

Please clarify.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to Mercnbeth)
Profile   Post #: 250
RE: Turning every thread into a political debate - 5/13/2007 4:58:49 PM   
farglebargle


Posts: 10715
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Albany, NY
Status: offline 		I think *I* am the one who brought the "dojo" into the conversation.

Meaning that you practice so that when the practice is needed, it's useful and applicable.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 251
RE: Turning every thread into a political debate - 5/13/2007 5:27:16 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline 		Fair enough, farglebargle.

The problem is that that word was glommed on to by posters who decided to apply it to my job.  I suspect they wont be able to articulate a coherent response, so the response will either be a) none, or b) attacking me again.

Dojos are nice.  I taught at one for 14 years.

I studied in at least 8 other ones that I can remember off the top of my head in various parts of the United States.  Then there are the seminars with martial arts experts that friends dragged me to.  One of those, taught by Graciella Casillas, scared the living crap out of me about the intimacy of knife combat.

Self defense and martial arts are two different things.

However, the thread seems to have gone from political debate to trashing me for a job I do, by a bunch of
people who have no idea what I do, how I do it, and generally have little or no understanding of the psychology
or physiology of reactions to adrenal stress.  This is in response to a post I made describing how weird it feels some nights when I come home from teaching the class, and am trying to overcome my own adrenal response.  I suppose it is easier for these people to rush to judgement and attack me than it is for them to try to understand.

In the final analysis, I laud them for their opinion, and hope it keeps them safe.  I hope they never find themselves in a situation where they could have used some sort of training.  The hardest thing for a person to do is walk through the door to take the class, suspecting that the may be faced with realistic scenarios that force them to face some of their biggest fears.  As with so many things in life, people can only be shown the door; they must walk through it themselves.

I came to the conclusion about 20 years ago that most people on the planet are self defense experts, either because they watched too many Kung Fu movies, subscribe to Paladin Press books, saw something on 60 minutes about it, own a set of Nunchaku they bought at a flea market, got their yellow belt in BootToHead Do, or went through basic training (which is about military conflict, not self defense) 30 years ago.

Which is why I bowed out about 3 pages ago.  I am only responding to your post since I really enjoy reading what you post.  In the final analysis, I hope people are safe and live happy lives.  I can argue about 5 different sides of most self defense approaches, including the one I get paid to teach.  However, the best analysis I have came from a former military person, security captain at a major Aerospace company, senior instructor at one of the studios I taught at, and friend.  He made the point that the person who wins the fight will always be the one who reverts to animal the quickest, because higher brain function simply gets in the way when one is fighting for one's life.

Add to the fact that I earn a paycheck teaching in a high school where the teachers of the school hear what I say to students while they teach their classes on the other side of the gymnasium, and I have yet to hear a complaint from either the school, the teachers, or my boss.  Quite the contrary, most students, parents, teachers, etc., seem to show me incredible amounts of gratitude for what I do.

As I said before, Peace Out.

Sinergy

_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to farglebargle)
Profile   Post #: 252
RE: Turning every thread into a political debate - 5/14/2007 2:50:49 AM   
swtnsparkling


Posts: 1738
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

juliaoceania
that is why this class is offered in some high schools,


It is?
and they tell the girls as well as the boys- they are going to  be butt fucked?

I think self defence class's are a GOOD thing and glad they are out there for whom ever wish's to take it. But I in NO way think that ButtFucking needs to part of that class. No teenage girl or boy needs to hear "I'm going to butt fuck you" to learn what dangers they may face one day. It doesnt matter whether they are old enough mature enough.




_____________________________

Never make anyone a priority who treats you as an option 2003

Walk in Peace
A "No" uttered from deepest conviction is better than a "Yes" uttered merely to please



(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 253
RE: Turning every thread into a political debate - 5/14/2007 2:56:02 AM   
swtnsparkling


Posts: 1738
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Sinergy
Add to the fact that I earn a paycheck teaching in a high school where the teachers of the school hear what I say to students while they teach their classes on the other side of the gymnasium, and I have yet to hear a complaint from either the school, the teachers, or my boss.


I believe you do teach at schools and that teachers /sudents on the other side of the gym hear what you say. I believe no one has ever complained.

I beleive this  because

I don't beleive for a second you are saying "I'm going to butt fuck you" to anyone in that class.

_____________________________

Never make anyone a priority who treats you as an option 2003

Walk in Peace
A "No" uttered from deepest conviction is better than a "Yes" uttered merely to please



(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 254
RE: Turning every thread into a political debate - 5/14/2007 5:39:10 AM   
mistoferin


Posts: 8284
Joined: 10/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy
the thread seems to have gone from political debate to trashing me for a job I do


Really? My observation is that most of the people in disagreement are in disagreement of the tactics and methods.

quote:

  I suppose it is easier for these people to rush to judgement and attack me than it is for them to try to understand.


Why do you assume that no one has tried to understand? Just because their ultimate conclusion doesn't align with your opinion on the matter? May they do understand and their judgement is based on that understanding.

It would also seem that you have a different understanding of the word "attack". Opposing opinions are not personal "attacks".

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 255
RE: Turning every thread into a political debate - 5/14/2007 9:00:11 AM   
Rumtiger


Posts: 2634
Joined: 3/4/2006
From: Vegas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy
I came to the conclusion about 20 years ago that most people on the planet are self defense experts, either because they watched too many Kung Fu movies, subscribe to Paladin Press books, saw something on 60 minutes about it, own a set of Nunchaku they bought at a flea market, got their yellow belt in BootToHead Do, or went through basic training (which is about military conflict, not self defense) 30 years ago.


umm...you werent including me in any of these categorys where you?

_____________________________

Fuck the Pandas!
-Moi

Mmm, I love me some kickboxers, you know why? Cause ya'll cant take a punch!
- Quentin Tarantino.

If they cant take a joke, fuck em.
-Tucker Max

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 256
RE: Turning every thread into a political debate - 5/14/2007 5:01:01 PM   
Sinergy


Posts: 9383
Joined: 4/26/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rumtiger

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sinergy
I came to the conclusion about 20 years ago that most people on the planet are self defense experts, either because they watched too many Kung Fu movies, subscribe to Paladin Press books, saw something on 60 minutes about it, own a set of Nunchaku they bought at a flea market, got their yellow belt in BootToHead Do, or went through basic training (which is about military conflict, not self defense) 30 years ago.


umm...you werent including me in any of these categorys where you?


I was talking about the conclusion I came to years ago, Rumtiger, not about anybody in particular.

That is why I used the term "most."   Despite the fact that I get paid to fly places to do what I do, and people continually ask me for what they refer to as my expert opinion, the attitude I tend to have about almost anything in life is that you can fill entire book repositories with the stuff I dont know about almost everything.

I figure an expert is best described by the knowledge that an ex is a has-been and a spurt is a drip under pressure.

Sinergy

p.s.  On a related note, people ask me, for example, "what do I do if the person is doing <something>?"  The only response I ever give is "It is a dynamic situation; you fight for your life the best way you know how."  People who give definitive answers about solutions to dynamic and variable situations make me nervous.


_____________________________

"There is a fine line between clever and stupid"
David St. Hubbins "This Is Spinal Tap"

"Every so often you let a word or phrase out and you want to catch it and bring it back. You cant do that, it is gone, gone forever." J. Danforth Quayle


(in reply to Rumtiger)
Profile   Post #: 257
RE: Turning every thread into a political debate - 5/14/2007 5:52:46 PM   
pahunkboy


Posts: 33061
Joined: 2/26/2006
From: Central Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		wow- this thread really lost me. if i find me- ill let me know....

(in reply to Sinergy)
Profile   Post #: 258
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