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RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 8:50:12 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave

Im just wondering how a Master can controll such an uncontrollable thing such as punching and kicking someone. And if they cant controll it then they are not in controll of the scene and there for I dont really see it as an act a Master could really do. Just my opinion but I think a Master should be in controll of everything he does during a scene and this just does not scream controlled to me.

Magik's slave

Ok.. let me get this straight..

You question how a Master can control his Fist or Foot in doing an "Uncontrolable thing as Punching and Kicking.

So.. How is a Master to control his Fist that holds a Flogger and Do an Control thing such as Flogging?

How the hell is Punching Uncontrolable when one is using one's own Fist?

And you don't question Flogging as being UnControlable when the Fist is holding on to a Flogger so it can hit a person.

Telll me which are more accurate with... taking your finger touching your nose.. or holding a pencil and touching your nose with the end of the pencil.. and keep your eyes closed when doing this... don't want you to poke your eye out with the pencil when you miss.

btw.. go at the same speed too..

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to MagiksSlave)

RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 8:54:07 PM

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Speaking of dumb and uninformed ... I guess someone doesn't know how Houdini died.

Edited to add: Came to the thread late, so I didn't realize at first that Houdini had already come up. I have a much fuller post about this below. Read on! Or don't, whatever...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Faramir

No, he was being idotic talking about FATAL injuries in all-caps from getting punched in the gut. I read dumb, uninformed stuff here all the time, but that stood out.

Yea, the high schools of America are littered with the dead bodies of kids who get hit in the gut playing football or basketball or rough housing. Kick boxers, MMA fighters and boxers die left and right from getting hit in the gut. It's FATAL I tell you!

< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 7/4/2007 9:37:28 PM >

(in reply to Faramir)

RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 8:56:28 PM

ModeratorEleven

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Ok folks, please chill out.

XI

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RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 8:58:30 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave

Im just wondering how a Master can controll such an uncontrollable thing such as punching and kicking someone. And if they cant controll it then they are not in controll of the scene and there for I dont really see it as an act a Master could really do. Just my opinion but I think a Master should be in controll of everything he does during a scene and this just does not scream controlled to me.

Magik's slave

Ok.. let me get this straight..

You question how a Master can control his Fist or Foot in doing an "Uncontrolable thing as Punching and Kicking.

So.. How is a Master to control his Fist that holds a Flogger and Do an Control thing such as Flogging?

How the hell is Punching Uncontrolable when one is using one's own Fist?

And you don't question Flogging as being UnControlable when the Fist is holding on to a Flogger so it can hit a person.

Telll me which are more accurate with... taking your finger touching your nose.. or holding a pencil and touching your nose with the end of the pencil.. and keep your eyes closed when doing this... don't want you to poke your eye out with the pencil when you miss.

btw.. go at the same speed too..

Honestly Sir what you say here makes sence. Im totaly up to admit that my judment here is off. I guess Im a bit clouded with the fact that punching and kicking seem like such angry acts and I dont generaly couple controll with acts of anger. My mind has trouble seeing past these things as more then angry acts, that is something I have to work on, If people enjoy it that is fine for them, just not my thing.

Magik's slave

_____________________________

If you’re going through hell keep on moving
don't slow down
if you’re scared dont show it
you might get out
before the devil even knows your there.

-Rodney Atkins-

(in reply to KnightofMists)

RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 8:59:08 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ModeratorEleven

Ok folks, please chill out.

XI

Hey.. I just came out of the NWT.. I am chilled

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to ModeratorEleven)

RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 9:01:29 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave

Honestly Sir what you say here makes sence. Im totaly up to admit that my judment here is off. I guess Im a bit clouded with the fact that punching and kicking seem like such angry acts and I dont generaly couple controll with acts of anger. My mind has trouble seeing past these things as more then angry acts, that is something I have to work on, If people enjoy it that is fine for them, just not my thing.

Magik's slave

Do the exercise... prove to yourself in very direct way why the hand itself is more accurate and controlled than it is with something in it.

This direct understanding will help to overcome the beliefs itself. Seperates the irrational from the rational.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to MagiksSlave)

RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 9:01:44 PM

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Can't we all just get along!? :-)

Actually, I read elsewhere and just confirmed on Wikipedia that Houdini died of acute appendicitis.

"Harry had apparently been suffering from appendicitis for several days and refusing medical treatment. His appendix would likely have burst on it's own without the trauma."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Houdini

I don't think this changes the core of the discussion, but the Houdini example isn't well supported.

I personally don't like punching, but think it can be done in a safe manner by someone who is experienced. The key is "risk-aware", both for the giver and receiver.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Speaking of dumb and uninformed ... I guess someone doesn't know how Houdini died.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Faramir

No, he was being idotic talking about FATAL injuries in all-caps from getting punched in the gut. I read dumb, uninformed stuff here all the time, but that stood out.

Yea, the high schools of America are littered with the dead bodies of kids who get hit in the gut playing football or basketball or rough housing. Kick boxers, MMA fighters and boxers die left and right from getting hit in the gut. It's FATAL I tell you!

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 9:04:38 PM

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It's not an urban legend at all. The only thing your site says is that he was probably suffering from appendicitis before it happened. Well, even if that's true, so what? It only shows that punching someone in the stomach can be fatal under the right circumstances.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Faramir

I assume you are referring to the urban legend about him dying from being punched in the gut by a college student. Anyone who knows anything about anatomy or fighting knows how fucking dumb that particular urban legend is, and how ignorant you would have to be believe it or reference it as precautionary.

Boy, you look fucking knowledgable now, huh?

(in reply to Faramir)

RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 9:14:04 PM

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I once read a story about a guy at a red light who stopped his car, then turned around in his seat to get something in the back of his vehicle.

The lady driving the car behind him wasnt so quick to stop and as a result, very lightly tapped the back of his bumper with her car.

However, given the position the man was in, the slight force of the collision caused his neck to break and for him to die instantly.

Now...I personally cant provide any factual information to validate the claims of safety information made in this thread...

But...regardless of that (and as much as I might personally dislike his methods) I understand the point Faramir is trying to make.

Hitting someone in the stomach with a fist can cause just as much injury as hitting someone in the stomach as a cane and to automatically infer that someone who uses thier fist in S/M is automatically "unsafe" or "bad" is ludicrous and based on social prejudge.

If we were to start a thread about hitting people in the stomach with a cane, I doubt the safety debate would be very different.

The relevant issue, in my eyes at least, is that the cane is "OK" and the fist is "BAD".

< Message edited by MadRabbit -- 7/4/2007 9:15:02 PM >

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(in reply to Lordandmaster)

RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 9:15:17 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

It's not an urban legend at all. The only thing your site says is that he was probably suffering from appendicitis before it happened. Well, even if that's true, so what? It only shows that punching someone in the stomach can be fatal under the right circumstances.

OR it could of been just bad timing.. Meaning the punch didn't change the pace of it happening.

In our local community a person had a brain aneurism attack at the time of Flogging... Needless to say it was a tough thing at the time.. but regardless... it was going to occur.. regardless of the flogging or not... Which may or may not been the case for the disappearing wonder.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 9:17:29 PM

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That he had (and likely would have died from) untreated appendicitis shows that the example you gave isn't a clear cut case of punching being fatally dangerous. I could argue that spanking with an implement is potentially fatally dangerous, but if the example I gave was of someone dislodging a thrombosis causing a fatal embolism, it wouldn't be compelling because it is a highly unlikely combination and everything in life has some risk. It certainly wouldn't show that spanking with an implement is inherently dangerous. Houdini died because he had appendicitis. Without that condition, the stomach blows most likely wouldn't have killed him.

That said, I do have an intuitive feeling that blows to the abdomen are much more dangerous than to say, the ass and less dangerous than blows to the head. But I can't back that up with evidence and I am not sure that it matters. Someone who is inexperienced with rope or a dozen other common BDSM type toys could under the right (or wrong actually) circumstances hurt someone badly or even kill them. But that is why experience, common sense, and risk awareness are important. Or so it seems to me.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

It's not an urban legend at all. The only thing your site says is that he was probably suffering from appendicitis before it happened. Well, even if that's true, so what? It only shows that punching someone in the stomach can be fatal under the right circumstances.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Faramir

I assume you are referring to the urban legend about him dying from being punched in the gut by a college student. Anyone who knows anything about anatomy or fighting knows how fucking dumb that particular urban legend is, and how ignorant you would have to be believe it or reference it as precautionary.

Boy, you look fucking knowledgable now, huh?

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 9:29:36 PM

Slavetrainer2007

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wow all this over punching. Guess ill give my 2 cents. punching is like any other kink/fetish, when non intelligent people do it people get hurt( mainly the punchee). I think all the fetishes, if done improperly, can be hazardous or deadly. For instance, many people dont realize the "snap" of a whip is the end breaking the sound barrier for a spilt second. How many subs you know want to get whipped at the speed of sound? Common knowledge? maybe not but important knowledge if your whipping. Never let the snap touch flesh.

everything is dangerously if done properly, or in this case improperly...but i can also kill someone with a straw from mc donalds:)

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RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 9:33:03 PM

Aswad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MagiksSlave

I guess Im a bit clouded with the fact that punching and kicking seem like such angry acts and I dont generaly couple controll with acts of anger. My mind has trouble seeing past these things as more then angry acts, that is something I have to work on

I'd just like to compliment you on seeing this limitation, and accurately identifying its cause.

If we all could do that, this place would be as quiet as heaven on a saturday night...

_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do." -- Rorschack, Watchmen.

(in reply to MagiksSlave)

RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 9:34:04 PM

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Let me try to unravel this a little bit, and explain my opinion about all this a little more fully.

Wikipedia quotes the McGill University archive as follows:

quote:

It appears that Whitehead's punch to Houdini's stomach, while not fatal, aggravated an existing but still undetected case of appendicitis. Although in serious pain, Houdini nonetheless continued to travel without seeking medical attention.

That sounds reasonable to me, but I can't verify it. The Wikipedia article attributes the quote to a book called Where Are They Buried? How Did They Die? by Tod Benoit, but I checked and it's not in there. What IS in there, however, is the statement that Houdini's widow collected on a life-insurance policy for "an accident directly causing the premature death of Harry Houdini" (p. 467).

Seems to me there was little doubt in 1926 that being punched in the stomach contributed to Houdini's death, even if he already had appendicitis before it started. How anyone could know more about Houdini's death TODAY is beyond me. (Incidentally, there's a rumor that he was poisoned, and some of his heirs have begun a campaign to re-examine Houdini's remains: http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,,2041311,00.html)

Now for my two cents: I think it's both ignorant and dangerous for someone to deny that a punch in the stomach could be fatal. That doesn't mean it's always, or even often, going to be fatal, but it certainly COULD be fatal, especially if the person has a pre-existing condition. Or suppose you punch a pregnant woman in the stomach--are you really going to pretend that that couldn't cause a miscarriage? What if the woman (or the puncher, for that matter) didn't even know she was pregnant?

If consenting adults want to punch each other, that's perfectly all right with me (it is illegal in many jurisdictions, but that's a different matter); all I'd say is please let's not pretend that punching someone in the stomach isn't dangerous--and insult people who point out that it is. I don't see any purpose in that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

It's not an urban legend at all. The only thing your site says is that he was probably suffering from appendicitis before it happened. Well, even if that's true, so what? It only shows that punching someone in the stomach can be fatal under the right circumstances.

OR it could of been just bad timing.. Meaning the punch didn't change the pace of it happening.

In our local community a person had a brain aneurism attack at the time of Flogging... Needless to say it was a tough thing at the time.. but regardless... it was going to occur.. regardless of the flogging or not... Which may or may not been the case for the disappearing wonder.

< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 7/4/2007 9:38:09 PM >

(in reply to KnightofMists)

RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 9:37:33 PM

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Wow, I can not believe where this thread has gone. I guess I've never thought that this was really all that rare or would stir such controversy.

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
And so far in this thread... I haven't seen it point out that Motivation is a Prime consideration for any BDSM type activity.

KoM, I just wanted to say that very early in the thread I did try to touch upon motivation and intent....I guess it just got lost in all of this commotion.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to KnightofMists)

RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 10:39:34 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

As I recall, the exactness of the location just improves the odds of causing it.
I could certainly be wrong, though, I'm not a cardiologist or anything.
Apart from that, I'd assume it's a question of impact and timing.

I got the impression 1-in-40 was accurate, given a hard punch in the right area.
And an untrained person can generate about 80 J, if memory serves.

Hello,

Based on the medical information I have gotten from medical professionals, the blow has to be delivered specifically above the left ventricle and the window of the timing of the blow is approximately 15 ms. I don't know where the 1 in 40 number comes from - if it were accurate then we'd have a lot of dead folks around. Also, the injury you described in the dojo sounds like something other than Commotio Cordis, which is a spontaneous stopping of the heart. If there was debris around the heart, it doesn't sound like Commotio Cordis There was a post on the Diva Midori list about commotio cordis that details this information. While I do not have permission to repost it here, here is the link to the list http://groups.yahoo.com/group/divamidori/. Do a search on Commotio Cordis and you can see the entire thread.

Take care,

Peggy

(in reply to Aswad)

RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 10:41:08 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Faramir

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissOchistic

The risks for punching the stomach and torso are higher than punching the shoulders and arms. This is assuming we're talking about your average joe who isn't trained in how to pull punches and what areas can result in internal injuries. There aren't vital organs resting under your biceps. A pull punch to the arm is less likely to break your bones then a misplaced one is to break your ribs. A hard jab to the thigh is less likely to trigger an underlying heart condition than a punch to the chest.
Sure, you or I might be able to beat the crap out of a sub without any higher risk than other play, but most people could not, and this fellow was right in saying that the risks are too high for him to safely just haul off and punch someone in the stomache for shits and giggles.

No, he was being idotic talking about FATAL injuries in all-caps from getting punched in the gut. I read dumb, uninformed stuff here all the time, but that stood out.

Yea, the high schools of America are littered with the dead bodies of kids who get hit in the gut playing football or basketball or rough housing. Kick boxers, MMA fighters and boxers die left and right from getting hit in the gut. It's FATAL I tell you!

People die in fighting from trauma to the brain, most often acute subdural hematoma to the brain or cerebral edema, and much less often Second Impact Syndrome.

Now, if we really want to split hairs, punching someone in their skeleto-muscular system is more risky than punching them in the gut. Those blows are done much harder in general, and carry a real risk of damage to joints, tendons and ligaments, as well as the possibility of ruptures to the muscle belly itself. Not that I really think it's all that dangerous, but if you want to get technical about it, there you go.

FATAL injury, my ass.

Houdini.

(in reply to Faramir)

RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 10:42:16 PM

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The Houdini thing has already been well covered.

_____________________________

Peace and light,
~erin~

There are no victims here...only volunteers.

When you make a habit of playing on the tracks, you thereby forfeit the right to bitch when you get hit by a train.

"I did it! I admit it and I'm gonna do it again!"

(in reply to becca333)

RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 10:43:58 PM

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Actually, the above is just one high-profile example. Sure, lots of people get punched all over with no damage (although most boxers have some degree of brain damage over time, not that it shows at all...) But if you hang around an ER you'll see a few of the ones who weren't quite so lucky. Ruptured liver, spleen, etc - yes, it's rare. But it does happen.

You might find that people enjoy discussions more if you use phrases like, "In my opinion.... I think that..... " Instead of 'you're an idiot'. But I'm sure that sounds more satisfyingly Dommy.

(in reply to becca333)

RE: Punching your sub/slave? - 7/4/2007 11:06:11 PM

robertolapiedra

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Faramir

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

quote:

ORIGINAL: windchymes

There is a huge difference in punching the stomach of a trained boxer who has well developed, rock-hard abs who gets punched in them repeatedly every time he trains, as opposed to a submissive who is probably restrained in some way, hasn't done a sit-up in years and who isn't expecting the blow coming.

Obviously.
But you are also neglecting an important bit.
The dominant in question, one hopes, will not be punching in the same way a boxer will.

Are you kidding dude? When I hit a girl in the stomach, I don't mess with any stright right crap. I'm cross-stepping, low, angle-iron arm and throwing a hook with full explosion from the hip, tight and in a close arc, and with every bit of strength and explosive power I have in my 203lb body. In addition to doing strength, hypertophy and fat-loss protocols I do an explosive/power protocol, plus my routines are modelled on homind movements, one of the seven being twist, so I can really get some high end kinetic energy going.

Why do I it? Because I have abusive agression issues I can't control, and I mask it with a BDSM facade.

HAHAHHAHHAHHAHAH!

Hello Faramir..........hum............but would'nt that hurt your hands? or do you tape them up before? gloves? how many ounces?.....I'm surprised man, I thought you were a romantic sensual "massage" type dom!

I'm curious, is the sub free swinging from the ceiling like an heavy bag or do you prefer to have her set up like a double ended? Man, I really dont know shit about this! lol. RL.

(in reply to Faramir)

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