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RE: "The Submissive lie" - 3/24/2008 8:42:29 AM

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~Fast Reply~

Why lie?

Valyraen knows that I hate housework. In a way, I enjoy keeping the house for him but there are still hundreds and hundreds of other things I'd much rather be doing. It's an interesting like/hate relationship. He knows that, if we get to a position where we can afford it, I'm going to ask to hire a cleaning service once a month or possibly more frequently. Heck, he's known I've hated housework since before we were d/s and he probably had an inkling before we started dating. I'd say from the first time he saw my dorm room.

So, why lie?

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to chamberqueen)

RE: "The Submissive lie" - 3/24/2008 8:42:45 AM

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I must have missed anyone calling the OP a fake.
The OPs girls logic is very flawed... but I think he knew that from when he wrote it.
Essentialy, regardless of what the statement is... if it says that ALL, EVERY, ANY or NONE of a certain type of person do something you are going to be wrong.
I have 2 boys, and each of them do as I ask. They dont always love what has been assigned to them, and I dont assign things so that they delight in their servie ever moment of every day. I will never think Fox likes doing my dishes, cleaning my bathroom or vacuuming. He does it, yes, without question or objection, and usually when I am not home. I have never believed he did these things while sporting an erection at the excitement of serving. He has gotten aroused when he knows I have something planned for him when he finishes his work, and there are certain service activities he does get aroused by becasue he has associations for them. Definately not the standard response.
I am sure there are some who do get off just on the idea of service. Usually, though, that is a short lived reaction in a newbie slave or submissive.

My 2 cents.
DV

_____________________________

I will be your Dominate if you will be my submit - Fox

Snarko Ergo Sum
If you cannot change your mind, how are you so sure you still have one? -proverb

*Owner of Fox - collared 10/13/07*
VampiresLair

(in reply to MontrealPhoenix)

RE: "The Submissive lie" - 3/24/2008 8:48:16 AM

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Good thread idea that can allow us to show the humor in situations or to also take a serious poke on both sides of the whip as to the fine tuning of statements before they become an issue.

Just a few days ago I had one of my slaves clean out the kitty litter for the first time. He has never refused me anything nor has he ever shown displeasure in his sheer need to serve. I listened to him coughing and gagging with a smile, waiting for him to appear before me once again head down and hands behind his back. When I asked him what all the coughing and gagging was about he looked shocked as though he had not really noticed. His response was, I have never done that before, I do not like the smell. He was happy in the service regardless but it no way was it a physical turn on.

Another slave of mine would have completed the same task with just about as much pleasure on his end in a physical sense but emotionally he would be in deeper slavery (in the moment) simply because the task to him would have been difficult due to odor.

Both would have been dancing on the edge of dishonesty if they had of given a blanket answer of yes or no to "getting off on" everything they must do for me but on the other hand in a round about way they did find a fragment of pleasure in my appreciation of obeying this mundane task.

(in reply to OsideGirl)

RE: "The Submissive lie" - 3/24/2008 9:13:22 AM

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is it not all about "selflessness"?? not the act but the act for whom one does it and the joy that results?

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Lady Hathor, I am the Mistress Hathor of Orleans, I am what I am, often to the dismay and discomfort of others.

(in reply to MasterDoc1)

RE: "The Submissive lie" - 3/24/2008 9:32:54 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHathor

is it not all about "selflessness"?? not the act but the act for whom one does it and the joy that results?

Prepares for the flames

I actually dont think there is such a thing as a wholly selfless act.There is.. eventually...a benefit for me in every act I perfrom.Now that benefit may be direct or indirect, it may be measurable or immeasurable...but its bloody there all the same.

examples

waking up a little earlier than usual... cooking Him breakfast ...serving it Him in bed..sucking His cock while He eats and reads the paper before work
Benefit to me = happy Master = good mood Master = greater possibility of chocolates coming home from work with Master ... = very happy fucking slave who spends her evening with a happy Master and a box of chocolates

Learning to be the hottest walking life support for the most addictive ass pussy and mouth He has ever fucked
Benefit to me = Master addicted to my ass pussy and mouth and therefore likely to keep me near by = I am happy because am with Him, knowing I am a white hot fuck according to Master makes me feel good about myself.

Keeping a clean house form Him, putting up with His moods, dealing with His weaknesses, giving up my desires, changing myself to reflect His capricious desires
Benefit to me = Happy and contented Master = pleasing Him makes me happy =I like being happy

now... fringe benefit of owning a girl who is selfish and looks to her own pleasure..BUT ...only really gets pleasure from being pleasing ...you have a girl hard wired to please you because ultimately that gets her exactly what she wants.

anyway... back to the thread

_____________________________

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veritas, respectus honorque in corio

(in reply to LadyHathor)

RE: "The Submissive lie" - 3/24/2008 10:01:46 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: softness

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHathor

is it not all about "selflessness"?? not the act but the act for whom one does it and the joy that results?

Prepares for the flames

I actually dont think there is such a thing as a wholly selfless act.There is.. eventually...a benefit for me in every act I perfrom.Now that benefit may be direct or indirect, it may be measurable or immeasurable...but its bloody there all the same.

*nods*

Yup I totally agree with this

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(in reply to softness)

RE: "The Submissive lie" - 3/24/2008 10:19:42 AM

RCdc

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterDoc1

Which brings me to what I call "the submissive lie." The submissive lie is that subs get off on doing whatever their Dom (or domme) tells them to, just because he/she tells them to do it. The idea that I'd be overjoyed to pick up my doms dirty laundry just because I'm sub. Now in some respects I do enjoy helping him, and I was glad, of course, to help him out when he's not feeling well. But do I like doing housework? Never. Do I get horny and excited from being told to take out his trash? No. It is just a big fat lie that submissives just LOVE doing whatever you tell them to.

Comments?

I have never heard all submissives say they get off on doing chores. I don't get off on doing chores, but I certainly gain from being allowed to do them, but then, that is me. I am sure there are submissives who get off on however, fetishes are varied although less prominant for females.
I don't love doing whatever I am told to do. I love submitting and serving. The whole statement is very immature in my opinion and shows a lack of understanding for others peoples submission and an assumption that all submission is the same.
It isn't.

the.dark.

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RC&dc

love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to MasterDoc1)

RE: "The Submissive lie" - 3/24/2008 10:19:56 AM

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FR

It's far more rewarding to clean a toilet and get appreciated for the effort then to clean one and have to give (the same) lecture to the a half gronw male to take better aim when he pees, even if his eyes are half closed.

The chores are the same regardless of which house I do them in, but the rewards are far greater at his house then my own. And I'll get wet sometime during the course of the day.

_____________________________

Regret for the things we did can be tempered by time; it is regret for the things we did not do that is inconsolable. Sydney J. Harris

Sex without pain is like food without taste.
- de Sade

(in reply to colouredin)

RE: "The Submissive lie" - 3/24/2008 10:20:51 AM

RCdc

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHathor

is it not all about "selflessness"?? not the act but the act for whom one does it and the joy that results?

No. Submission (and domination) are acts of selfishness.

the.dark.

_____________________________

RC&dc

love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

(in reply to LadyHathor)

RE: "The Submissive lie" - 3/24/2008 10:22:29 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterDoc1

Comments?

Reposted from a thread I started over a year and a half ago...

quote:

ORIGINAL: losttreasure

I didn’t want to derail SusanO’s thread, "the "Illusion factor" in bdsm makes it less "real". Discuss.", but in it, popeye1250 made the following comment:

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Susan, a sub or slave "wants" to serve.
If they enjoy serving their Dom or Master continuation of that service is contingent on rendering more service to their Dom or Master in a satisfactory manor for the relationship to continue.
I don't see any "force" being used at all.
Either party may "opt out" at any time.
And like you said there may be an element of illusion but if it makes the two people happy where's the "problem?"
I enjoy and appreciate service from a sub/slave every bit as much as they like to give said service!
So, as much as it may be arousing to the sub/slave it is also arousing to me. A symbiotic relationship!

While I can’t disagree at all with the gist of what he is saying and it is obviously regarding his own personal situation, it did getting me to thinking about his statement that “a sub or slave “wants” to serve. I’ve often seen similar statements made regarding the submissive nature and the need to serve, and I sometimes get the impression that dominants feel this is true and given for all submissives, or at least should be. It seems there is never a lack of commentary by dominants about the dismal understanding of submissives with regard to service.

Typically musings such as these are followed by discussion of the different types of submissives and the services they perform... the “bedroom sub”, the “domestic service sub”, etc. And, it’s usually responded to with reminders that not all submissives are service submissives, which predictably leads to some kind of conversation mentioning the difference between subs who only want play and those who seek a 24/7 lifestyle.

At any rate, it seems that the concept of service usually gets stuck around the idea that it relates only to performing duties that provide for (or having responsibilities that are related to) either the comfort or pleasure of a dominant.

While both of these types of service have their appeal to me, I would not say that as a part of my nature that I desire or crave either. Now, I will admit that I derive pleasure from being pleasing... and if performing domestic chores results in pleasing Fhky, then it is a source of happiness for me. In the same vein and even more obviously, if in sexual service I can bring pleasure to him, again I am pleased.

But at my core, there isn’t a part of me that longs to provide these services. I am not driven to my knees with need to do so. Were that the case, there are an infinite number of opportunities to provide service in this world without having to relinquish my power to another... and if I were aroused simply by the act of serving, I could take those opportunities and walk through life in a state of perpetual sexual bliss without ever having to involve another individual in my private affairs.

That being said, in so much as these are sources of happiness for me and I do wish to be happy in my life, then yes, one could say that I desire and crave these types of service... but they aren’t the main type of service that “floats my boat”.

Beyond these common ideas of service there is one type that may be universally understood, but I believe is often forgotten or at least not spoken of frequently. The service that I’m referring to is the kind of service that one thinks about a Knight giving his king... it is fealty. The desire to be in the presence of someone who embodies the essence of all that you hold dear in humanity. To be on bended knee (or knees) pledging all that you are in adoration. If you look up “fealty” in a thesaurus, you get the synonyms of allegiance, adherence, ardor, constancy, dedication, deference, devotion, duty, faithfulness, fidelity, homage, honor, loyalty, obedience, obligation, and piety. To me, those words describe the ultimate service... the ultimate submission... the ultimate turn-on.

I still feel the same way.

(in reply to MasterDoc1)

RE: "The Submissive lie" - 3/24/2008 10:25:48 AM

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I guess I am living a lie.

I'm going to tag onto what beth and katy said, as I agree with them completely.

Here's the thing with me - I love doing for him more than I dislike doing any particular task. Make sense? If he wants something done and it will benefit his life to do it, then no matter how I might feel about scrubbing his toilet, taking care of his laundry, etc...my feelings about that are far less than my contentment and joy in knowing he is benefiting from it.

The only times I remember not finding contentment and pleasure in doing something for him is when he has requested me to do something that wasn't in his best interest. I do it, but it pains me to. Then again, those feelings are all about him and his well being, as they are when I am doing something "yucky." Is it to his benefit? Then I am happy, no matter what it is. Even if it is excruciating. Go figure.

I learned even greater appreciation for such things when I was held at bay and not allowed to do them. But because even that was something he wanted, I was more content to wait on the sidelines than I was agonized by waiting on the sidelines.

The lie is when one is living untrue to oneself.

_____________________________

Good is the enemy of great.

(in reply to MasterDoc1)

RE: "The Submissive lie" - 3/24/2008 10:27:18 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark
I love submitting and serving. The whole statement is very immature in my opinion and shows a lack of understanding for others peoples submission and an assumption that all submission is the same.
It isn't.

the.dark.

Perfectly said.

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Good is the enemy of great.

(in reply to RCdc)

RE: "The Submissive lie" - 3/24/2008 10:31:55 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: softness

I actually dont think there is such a thing as a wholly selfless act.There is.. eventually...a benefit for me in every act I perfrom.Now that benefit may be direct or indirect, it may be measurable or immeasurable...but its bloody there all the same.

I very much agree, softness, and I can't imagine you getting flamed for it. In the very same thread I quote above, I wrote something very similar...

quote:

ORIGINAL: losttreasure

Unpopular as the idea might be, in addition to serving him (FirmhandKY) and our relationship, I am serving myself. After all, if I wasn't initially motivated to serve myself, I wouldn't be serving him and there would be no relationship.

You see... I don't buy into the idea of "selfless service".

For me, service is a means to achieve an end. Despite all the controversy over "it isn’t all about you", when all is said and done, it really is "all about me". At least from my perspective.

Every action in life provides a positive reward for the doer, and all actions are motivated by "selfish" desires. Every decision I make... every function I perform, I do so because in the end it serves some need or desire of mine. Even those activities that might otherwise be considered involuntary, serve me... submitting to a rapist at knifepoint would be horrendous, but the decision to relent serves my hope to survive.

And ultimately, by choosing to submit to and serve FHky, that decision serves the well of emotions that he stirs within me. His pleasure in me and my service only strengthens and perpetuates that service. My delight in his pleasure deepens my desire to serve and to meet his desires both completely and abundantly.

(in reply to softness)

RE: "The Submissive lie" - 3/24/2008 10:34:37 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Leatherist

It's not whether they get off on it or not. And I have had plenty of subs real time.

It's about if you ask them if they are ok with doing something. You ask because you care.

They say they are cool with it-and you do it.

They come back days or weeks later-and say they really weren't,and they knew they weren't when they consented. And you totally lose trust in thier ability to be honest with you-and it ruins things.

So quit beating up the Op and calling him fake-cuz it happens and I have BEEN there.

On the other hand if the choice is between doing something she's unhappy about or telling him no, she may well go with the first. Not because she's deliberately lying but because she's afraid to defy him or turn him down. Lots of people say their door is always open but woe befall the one who takes them seriously.

A dominant only has to once throw a tantrum when told no, to have a sub who never feels safe telling him that again.

Like always, relationships are never black and white.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to Leatherist)

RE: "The Submissive lie" - 3/24/2008 10:36:37 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHathor

is it not all about "selflessness"?? not the act but the act for whom one does it and the joy that results?

Nope. Being submissive and being owned is about the most selfish state I've ever been in. I wouldn't be here if I didn't get enjoyment from it. Being selfless would be becoming a domme to a sub male who needed one.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to LadyHathor)

RE: "The Submissive lie" - 3/24/2008 10:40:33 AM

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Thanks for your comments. A few points: first of all let me say (speaking for the lady) that I am sure she will concede that her attempt to label her statement as applying to ALL submissives was NOT intended literally. I take it as hyperbole to indicate that in her mind it applies merely to many not all: that MANY submissives feel obligated to act as if they are enjoying even the least desireable of acts if instructed to do so by their dom(me). I agree that a person who defines as a "slave" SHOULD be able to transform even such dross as housework into the gold of service but that is a BIG hill to climb.
Someone said that the POINT of submission is sometimes doing what you don't like; it is not submission if you only do what pleases you. I tend to agree with that.
Liking everything that you do (or getting "wet" from it) is NOT an essential component of submission.
The philosophical discussion of "selfishness" is interesting. Try reading Ayn Rand's "The Virtue of Selfishness" on this (though I'm not sure it's the final word).
I used to go to Hellfire here in NYC with a submissive who happened to be an AWESOME hard-bodied hottie clearly younger than I was (looking that way is NOT a requirement in order to serve me but this one was). After I used her in a variety of ways guys would sometimes walk up to (average looking, chubby and not even rich) me and say something like "Man that was hot! How do I get a lady willing to serve me that way? You are one lucky guy!"
To which I would answer:
Well the first thing you need is a change in attitude. You need to be able to see in your mind a gorgeous woman being beaten, sexually used and degraded by you and be able to say to yourself (and MEAN it) "Boy is SHE a lucky woman!".
I don't expect my submissives to LOVE picking up after me any more that I REQUIRE that they love licking my asshole (a specific sexual act I enjoy). I merely expect them to do it when I instruct them to. If other things were satisfactory I might even accept a sub for whom that was something she refused to do. Sure it would be nice if the activities they enjoyed correspond PERFECTLY with what I want them to do.In a 24/7 master/slave (not dom/sub) relationship I might even HOPE that was the case and expect them to be able to perform the transmutation of housework for me into joy for them. But short of that I would be happy with a submissive doing it just because I told them to.
I'm worth it! :)

(in reply to colouredin)

RE: "The Submissive lie" - 3/24/2008 10:44:51 AM

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i don't get sexually excited by the things i do for him BUT i certainly love doing things for him, simply because they ARE FOR HIM.......i never thought i'd enjoy housework, but i love it.....laundry, yep, love that too.......cooking, love it for him.........i was SOOOO NOT the domestic type prior to him, and the state of mess that my personal area is generally in kinda shows, i don't care as much about being a neat freak rather that what i do to the entire rest of the house is to please him.

Does this means that every day, at every time that i looove doing anything at all for him? No. There are days when i am tired and do less, there are times when i don't feel good and i am not as into doing things as i might otherwise be but for the most part i do everything i do for him with joy in my heart.

So much for the submissive lie being universal (which is how it sounded in the OP's example)

_____________________________

Hugs,
cherry

Walking through life, and fear with a smile on my face.
Walking directly through the eye of the hurricane...and through to the other side..without fear....realizing everything will be okay. :)

being obedient 1day at a time

(in reply to KatyLied)

RE: "The Submissive lie" - 3/24/2008 11:08:43 AM

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Of course I woudn't love doing those things, even doing it for my previous Domme. How many in this world actually love doing housework and throwing out of the trash?

Now, does it mean I do not like or love serving? No, as that is different concept than doing housework and such specifically.

I wouldn't consider a bad thing as shows how much a sub cares and likes serving by doing things they do not like doing, possibly even hate doing.

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(in reply to MasterDoc1)

RE: "The Submissive lie" - 3/24/2008 11:20:50 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

Being selfless would be becoming a domme to a sub male who needed one.

you lost Me on this one aquatic--can you expand?

_____________________________

Lady Hathor, I am the Mistress Hathor of Orleans, I am what I am, often to the dismay and discomfort of others.

(in reply to AquaticSub)

RE: "The Submissive lie" - 3/24/2008 11:37:36 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyHathor

quote:

ORIGINAL: AquaticSub

Being selfless would be becoming a domme to a sub male who needed one.

you lost Me on this one aquatic--can you expand?

Simple. I'm not a domme. I would be miserable and bored as one. I would get no pleasure from it - but I could go through the motions well and in doing so I would be giving a great deal of pleasure to someone else. I would be giving them what they need and want without getting anything myself. It would be selfless whereas being a submissive and being owned gives me great pleasure.

I could serve as someone's domme and it would be selfless. I serve as Valyraen's girl and it's entirely selfish. And because I am selfish, I chose to serve where I get pleasure.

_____________________________

Without my dominance you cannot submit. Without your submission I cannot dominate. You are my equal in this, though our roles are different.-Val

It was ok for him to beat me but then he tried to cuddle me! - Me

Member:Clan of the Scarlet O'Hair

(in reply to LadyHathor)

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