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Sophomores and Experts - 5/26/2008 9:19:40 AM

RedMagic1

Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
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There's been a lot of posts about "experience" and "experts" lately.

You know the word "sophomore?" It's someone who's been around a bit, but hasn't graduated yet, right? Well, it comes from two Greek words:

sophos -- wisdom (like philosophy)
moros -- fool (like moron)

A sophomore is a "wise fool." Someone who knows just enough to get into a helluva lot of trouble.

I took a look at the profiles of a few posters I consider to be BDSM experts, to see how they assessed their BDSM expertise. I'll keep this "anonymous."

Author of multiple books: No expertise listed.
Professional submissive: expert at nothing, beginner at a few things
Author of one book, nationally known presenter: expert at 5 BDSM things
Erotica author, event organizer: expert at 10ish BDSM things

Maledoms for some reason claim to be expert at more things than female doms or subs, in my limited experience viewing male profiles. (Maybe men are just smarter...

) Professional dommes claim to be expert at everything, so I didn't consider them -- even if it's true -- because there's no way to separate truth from marketing.

The trend I have noticed -- not just in BDSM -- is that real experts are much more aware of how damn much they don't know.

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Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

Post #: 1

RE: Sophomores and Experts - 5/26/2008 9:37:04 AM

PronePalabras

Posts: 37
Joined: 12/22/2007
Status: offline

well ..i think male Doms or "pretend Doms" tend to use the approach that the more you know ...the easier it is to get a sub without all the work intailed ...Female Doms tend to Specialize in a general area ...just my two cents here

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RE: Sophomores and Experts - 5/26/2008 9:37:27 AM

LuckyAlbatross

Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
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Well I tended to hear this most when I was much younger and people wanted to deny me a voice. I always kept hearing "youngsters always think they know everything, but when you get older you realize you don't know anything."

This never really made sense to me- someone has to know something at some point. Adding to the fact that I never actually believed I knew everything it was all fairly obvious that people were just using my age against me without grounds.

A personal profile is the place to talk about what you are really good at and what you aren't. On a personals site it's also often your "ad" to attract and gain responses.

I'd say it's more likely that the more experienced people are either in stable lasting situations and do not need their profiles to attract more attention or are using it in that way, while newbies tend to need and use every bit of information available to them.

But I still laugh every time someone tries to suggest the only true knowledge is how little we know and that anyone who actually dares stand up and suggest they KNOW something must automatically be wrong..

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Post #: 3

RE: Sophomores and Experts - 5/26/2008 9:42:54 AM

luvnchains

Posts: 52
Joined: 8/17/2005
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How is it said? The more I learn, the more I know. The more I know, the more I understand how very little I really know.

(in reply to RedMagic1)

Post #: 4

RE: Sophomores and Experts - 5/26/2008 9:43:54 AM

Arrrchibald

Posts: 350
Joined: 1/3/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1
The trend I have noticed -- not just in BDSM -- is that real experts are much more aware of how damn much they don't know.

And they probably feel less of a need to brag about it.

quote:

Maledoms for some reason claim to be expert at more things than female doms or subs, in my limited experience viewing male profiles.

With so many subs demanding several years of experience, and having had several subs, doms will feel more need to brag than anyone else.

(in reply to RedMagic1)

Post #: 5

RE: Sophomores and Experts - 5/26/2008 9:51:44 AM

Kelika

Posts: 56
Joined: 4/25/2006
From: Cincinnati
Status: offline

I don't list my BDSM activities at all on my profile; it's because BDSM doesn't define who I am or even, really, much of what I am. The other stuff is more important to me personally. It's kind of funny, I'm the opposite of many it sounds like. If a man has owned 5 girls and has all this expertise...I think that he is just in it for fun and not a lifetime commitment which is what I am looking for. I wouldn't marry someone that had already been married 5 times, why would I get collared to a man who has collared 5 women?

Well wishes,
Kelika

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RE: Sophomores and Experts - 5/26/2008 10:09:43 AM

faerytattoodgirl

Posts: 5824
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lets not forget the ones fresh out of highschool...the 18-21 yr old dom's.

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RE: Sophomores and Experts - 5/26/2008 10:15:00 AM

MladyHathor

Posts: 510
Joined: 4/6/2008
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quote:

The trend I have noticed -- not just in BDSM -- is that real experts are much more aware of how damn much they don't know

with a touch of humility.

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Post #: 8

RE: Sophomores and Experts - 5/26/2008 10:23:14 AM

Alumbrado

Posts: 5560
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Are you talking about those who actually claim expertise in their written descriptions or those who click the box in the list of likes and dislikes?

As pointed out when this has been raised in the past, the profile list doesn't give people a choice of selecting 'gifted amateur'.
In the narrow context of 'beginner', 'average', or 'expert', what would you click if you really enjoy something and people seem to enjoy the way you do it, ask you to show them how, etc. and you've been doing it for a while?

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Post #: 9

RE: Sophomores and Experts - 5/26/2008 10:31:26 AM

NumberSix

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Joined: 12/30/2006
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In the interest of advancing the sophomoric argument, nearly everything can be a gas with a little practice and a right-minded attitude.

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Be seeing you...

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Post #: 10

RE: Sophomores and Experts - 5/26/2008 10:34:45 AM

Missokyst

Posts: 6041
Joined: 9/9/2006
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I have been doing this stuff on and off since before legal majority, and I am old now. But I am not an expert at anything except knowing what I will never allow. I know me. I know some stuff. I do some stuff reasonably well. I have topped and bottomed. Topping takes some skill at specific tasks and it helps that I know CPR and basic first aid. Bottoming is more passive, but it helps to know yourself and what you will allow.
I am not an expert at anything but me. Which makes each experience I have with somone; new, exciting, and different from the time before.
In my case I find the years I have done this to be a hindrance. People tend to want an experienced dominant. But as a sub, the value card is in reverse.
Kyst

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(in reply to RedMagic1)

Post #: 11

RE: Sophomores and Experts - 5/26/2008 10:40:04 AM

fungasm

Posts: 321
Joined: 8/2/2007
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So what makes someone an expert? How much experience does one need to prove their expertise? Does writing a book make you an expert? Does a degree? Does X number of years in a relationship?

I think about that when I reply to posts here on this forum. There are things I know- from study and/or personal experience. But there is much I don't know. However, like most people here, I don't go through all the posts of the things I don't know, cluttering up those posts with replies of "buggered if I know." I only reply to the ones where I think I can help. Does that make me sound like a know it all, because most of my replies are things I know?

This is a vaguely anonymous forum. It's a place where people with an open mind can talk about sex and kink and relationships and love and toys... and know that we aren't going to be thought of as appalling simply because of what turns us on. Each of us can share what we know, and each of us can learn. That's the beauty of this thing. It's why I'm here on a Monday morning- having a cup of tea and reading posts which delight, amuse and occassionally annoy me. Whether someone is an expert is immaterial- they know enough to share.

_____________________________

"Science is a lot like sex. Sometimes something useful comes of it, but that's not the reason we're doing it." (Richard Feynman)

Blog: http://antidomme.sensualwriter.com

(in reply to Alumbrado)

Post #: 12

RE: Sophomores and Experts - 5/26/2008 10:46:43 AM

Alumbrado

Posts: 5560
Status: offline

The simple fix would be for admin to change the wording of those selections.

(in reply to fungasm)

Post #: 13

RE: Sophomores and Experts - 5/26/2008 10:50:23 AM

MstrVik

Posts: 122
Joined: 3/31/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: NumberSix

In the interest of advancing the sophomoric argument, nearly everything can be a gas with a little practice and a right-minded attitude.

Yeah, ain't that the goddams truth...

For myself, I'll freely admit that I often tend to be rather cocksure about things, and that is whether I'm an expert or not.
Sometimes I'm right, sometimes I'm wrong - though I can't imagine that the latter could happen very often...

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Post #: 14

RE: Sophomores and Experts - 5/26/2008 11:05:41 AM

Owner4SexSlave

Posts: 1311
Joined: 4/4/2007
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I tend to pause for a momemt and laugh whenever somebody makes a remark regarding how experienced I am.   I then proceed to burst their bubble, and share with them the many things I'm not an expert at.   Even things I'd love to try and do.

I think the whole experience thing is rather subjective according to what one has or has not experienced.   The fact remains, that everybody is not an expert at everything thing there is in this lifestyle.

It's an on going process of experiences...   Just because one have written a zillion books or given seminars, does that really make them any more or less experienced compared to anybody else?   Ok, somebody wrote a book does that mean they are automatically a good match for you or not?

There are things that need to fit into the equation besides experience alone. Things like common sense, intelligence, open mindedness, and a slew of other things.

There are probally people more skilled at using a flogger compared to me, I'm perhaps more skilled compared to others. OK, it's just a fact of life.   Experience is a somewhat relative concept.

Then again, if two less experienced people are willing to explore and do things, does this mean it's really a bad thing?   Willingness to do, learn and explore says a lot about somebody.

Meeehhh... just as there are people with college degree's that are basically certified idiots, the same is true with any facet of life.   knowledge and experience is by no means everything.

Personally, I tend to find anybody with a couple of years of actual hands on experience, either has figured a lot out or they are still clueless.   If somebody say's they have been in the lifestyle for 3 years, and they still don't seem to get a few basic concepts. Well, that is sort of red flag for me, regarding how intelligent they are, or if they actually use any common sense.

(in reply to RedMagic1)

Post #: 15

RE: Sophomores and Experts - 5/26/2008 12:02:45 PM

SimplyMichael

Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline

On being "expert"...

A teacher who knows basic math is an expert to her class but might know less than their parents.

A professor at a small junior college is an expert but probably less so than a research professor at a large university.

Most comets are detected by amateurs.

Being expert is largely a matter of perspective. I don't refer to myself as a "firearms" expert and yet many would. I know more than many authors about certain narrow subjects but have never written a book. There are circles where I shut the fuck up and listen but those are few and far between and the majority of people I consider experts wouldn't consider themselves that and the ones who do often aren't.

That said, as a few posters have noted, you only get three options. On an Internet website consisting of 75% who have either never done anything, what exactly is the scale we are using? I am sure that John Warren is quite expert at a few things I myself list my lesser experience as "expert"?

Also, much of what we do is more art than science. That is the argument behind saying reading books is a waste of time, art is a combination of practice and talent. There are things like flogging which is a large combination of both. I have seen people who can do amazing Florentine double handed stuff and their science is awesome but a newbie who "gets" women could probably make a woman feel more if he has a better grasp of the art ESPECIALLY if the woman gets off on the connection/energy more than being played with by an "expert". Look at music, play it perfectly and it is mechanical, playing it with emotion and it becomes art. Skill and expertise will only get you so far and heart and art can do amazing things without any skill and expertise. I myself suck at most bdsm "skills", I don't flog, my rope work is slow and not advanced, never touched a singletail, I don't own a violet wand, and I could go on but for those who my style connects with, they rarely forget having been with me.

The rule I used was if I felt very competent doing those things, with competence being the level of skill I would feel comfortable doing it in public in San Francisco. If the big kids didn't mock me, I figured that was good enough.

Oh, and if people who "write books" truly wanted to be modest they wouldn't be here under their real name. I am NOT implying they are immodest but Warren doesn't exactly need to put expert on his profile to get the same or similar effect. I do the same thing locally, I don't ever mention I started the group people tell me about, how long I have been in the scene or the other things I have done, I don't need to as they find out eventually. So is that arrogance hidden behind a mask, games, patience? Probably a little bit of all of that...

Bottom line? I only have to be expert to my partner...

(in reply to Owner4SexSlave)

Post #: 16

RE: Sophomores and Experts - 5/26/2008 1:10:49 PM

MadRabbit

Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: RedMagic1

There's been a lot of posts about "experience" and "experts" lately.

I think in the general the element and focus of "experience" and "expertise" in BDSM is a lot of pretentious egotism and not something heavily grounded in reality.

Outside of a handful of extreme activities, I've found that basic common sense and competency and a little bit of homework and instruction is enough to competently carry out kinky sex without any realistic threat of injury.

How much experience and expertise do you need to piss on someone?

Candle wax?

Basic bondage techniques and the safety associated with that?

Using a flogger correctly? (A reasonable and average flogger mind you and not not a heavy one made from chain)

A paddle?

How about a spanking?

To attach clothespins to a body part and remove them?

Careless and negating the life threatening nature of these activities? Whatever....I'm just being a pragmatic realist about it.

I'm NOT saying jump right into all this without doing any homework, but there is a degree of abstraction between the amount of homework and practice needed to successfully do these activities and the image and focus on years of experience and expertise in BDSM.

I've tried to make sense of it over the last two years and I always come to the same conclusion.

Subtracting things like needle play and 1000 knot Shibari extension bondage, it's generally just an extrapolation created to promote value so dominants can get pussy.

I refuse to play along with it which is why I generally abstain from the experience and expertise parts on my profile. I want a partner based on compatibility, not based on some resume I am required to have by self importants. I know what I know, I know what I enjoy, I know what I can do, and like everything else in life, I imagine I am going to learn a lot more through trial and error as the years go on.

And these is your Daily Highly Offensive Opinion from the Cute Little Bunny

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RE: Sophomores and Experts - 5/26/2008 1:31:50 PM

RedMagic1

Posts: 6470
Joined: 5/10/2007
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I'm off to a bbq, but I'd like to emphasize these points that were raised.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NumberSix
In the interest of advancing the sophomoric argument, nearly everything can be a gas with a little practice and a right-minded attitude.

quote:

ORIGINAL: fungasm
There are things I know- from study and/or personal experience. But there is much I don't know. However, like most people here, I don't go through all the posts of the things I don't know, cluttering up those posts with replies of "buggered if I know." I only reply to the ones where I think I can help.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael
Skill and expertise will only get you so far and heart and art can do amazing things without any skill and expertise.
Bottom line? I only have to be expert to my partner...

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
I know what I know, I know what I enjoy, I know what I can do, and like everything else in life, I imagine I am going to learn a lot more through trial and error as the years go on.

I certainly believe that -- short of being born a scion of an Ancient House of Mastery -- the most "expert" thing you can do is actually care about yourself and your partner, and always look for ways to improve.

_____________________________

Not with envy, not with a twisted heart, shall you feel superior, or go about boasting. Rather in goodness by action make true your song and your word. Thus you shall be highly regarded, and able to live in peace with all others.
- 15th century Aztec

(in reply to MadRabbit)

Post #: 18

RE: Sophomores and Experts - 5/26/2008 1:41:01 PM

Floggings4You

Posts: 240
Joined: 12/18/2006
Status: offline

Quite simply, there are no guarantees. This site doesn't make U/us verify the 'information' in O/our profiles, there are no insiginia (or diplomas to display) when O/one learns the 'right way' to flog, cane, or do needle play. (Heck, there isn't even one 'right way'...!) It's easy to lie, easy to write that O/one has 'years of experiene', or that O/one is 'a recognized expert'.

In My experience, yes, those who truly do 'know', are equally aware of all the stuff T/they don't know. It often takes being at least 'pretty good' at something, to be able to recognize true 'greatness'...

(in reply to RedMagic1)

Post #: 19

RE: Sophomores and Experts - 5/26/2008 2:14:08 PM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

I just had something of a similar conversation (twice, actually) in the real world.

In the last few weeks, I was asked on two different occasions to do demos at small groups. Both times, My response was that, while I was honored to be thought of, there were other people that I knew who were more knowledgeable in those fields, and referred them to someone else. Since I play in public fairly often, people see the types of things that I do, but even when I get compliments on scenes, or get approach by people who want to learn things from Me, I never claim Myself to be an 'expert'. After all, the folks who taught Me are still around, and they are certainly better at the skills I've learned from them in the first place. I'm a firm believer of, no matter how much I know, there's always someone out there who knows more.

With all of that said, the demo I probably will do is one with more of a "Jack of all trades" flavor. The idea behind it is to do various forms of play, and demonstrate safety techniques and first aid resources. We're lucky enough in our area to have someone who is an expert on safety during play, and I'm going to compliment her skills by being her demo Top.

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Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

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(in reply to MadRabbit)

Post #: 20

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