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RE: forced femizition - 1/13/2010 7:56:22 AM   
OttersSwim


Posts: 2860
Joined: 9/1/2008
Status: offline 		"A guy walks into a bar...."

"A guy walks into an internet forum...."

The "forced fem guys" are no different from the "bust my balls guys" or the "toilet guys" or the "strapon guys" or the "trample guys", etc., etc., etc.

It comes down to this.  CM is a dating site focused on power exchange relationships of D/s M/s.

"A guy walks into the CM forums and says 'Me want X'." - so easy, a caveman could do it right?

Well, that is just how they come across.  Playing a single note to what is in reality a complex symphony.  Now what is clear is that many of them have a limited vocabulary.  I am not saying that they are dumb, but simply that they have wandered in here without any grasp of the concepts surrounding power exchange relationships.  Many don't know what they don't know - they just know that they have this need...whatever it may be.

And so many of them blunder in here, and play their single note - it happens a lot as I said in a previous topic.  This is a tough room, no bones about it.  The Ladies here do not tolerate buffoons and so yea many of these posts get met with snark.  It is an open forum, and to an open-ended question like "are any Mistresses into X?", you are gonna get a variety of responses.  When it is a caveman one-note, the responses are going to lean heavily into the snark.

I post heavily in the forced fem topics as I want to give people an idea of where they are, and a clue to the vocabulary of power exchange.  My goal is to help people get what they want by stepping back from the Malibu Barbie Wheel of Dommely Delights**  and begin thinking about something real - how do I, as a girlie boy, get what I want?  And understanding the language that is used here in terms of service and love.

My Lady is not at all into forced fem.  But she is passionate about power exchange.  She is open and even enthusiastic about my girlie side, but would not be if it was all that was in my vocabulary.   It is like the line (and the theme) from the movie Sideways - "The alcohol overpowers the fruit."  

Our language is service and love, and my being girlie cannot overwhelm the dynamic of power exchange that She finds so fulfilling.  But by meeting her on Her Terms, I am able to realize my dreams too...and so much more!  The alcohol does not overpower the fruit.

The pool of Women who are even open to a girlie boy of any persuasion is so very small to begin with.  If we approach it only on -our- terms, then the chances of getting what we want are even further diminished.

We should not kid ourselves into thinking that these Ladies are just here to fulfill our dreams.  They are not.  Most are here for relationship that is meaningful and on their terms.  Our best chance to meet our desires and needs are to meet them on their field, and on their terms.  Kind of what it's about, eh? 

**Malibu Barbie Wheel of Dommely Delights copyright, 2010 by Ottersswim, all rights reserved.


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RE: forced femizition - 1/13/2010 8:15:05 AM   
Lockit


Posts: 11292
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		 Otter... again... so well put! You hit the nail on the head! I have friends who are into things I am not into and might not want to be in a relationship with them because of life situations and such, but because they are my friends, I have learned a lot about them and their life. It isn't easy sometimes to find people who will accept us for one reason or another. It isn't just a kink thing or a birth thing or any one thing.

Rejection isn't all about one type of thing and it hurts to be rejected or feel rejected whether we are or not. It doesn't feel good to feel different than others and I think that can play into this type of situation in a big way.

Now, I might have a cross dressing friend that I will go shopping online with as I can't get out or I would have gone shopping with before my current circumstances. I enjoyed the times we shared and finding deals for them and talking about it all. I even thought of having a relationship with a couple of my friends... but for other reasons than myself... I couldn't. And then there were the more personal things too. It isn't an non acceptance or rejection! It is simply how life works with all sorts of things and the type of relationship maybe.

It is in presentation and focus. Just as Otter says! If someone comes in like Otter and clearly talks about what they are wanting or thinking and don't come off with a one line or a paragraph and make themselves clear that they are not just looking to get their kink on... they get a far different response! Even from those who say no way... to a relationship with someone dressed in a dress. Would Otter or someone like him be treated badly if we went to an event and he was in a dress? Hell no! It is all in presentation, expectation and focus. Even when new... Otter never got a poor response as far as I know because he showed us who he was... before anything else... we saw him and not his kink or a self focus. We saw the beautiful Otter, we all came to love and appreciate!

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RE: forced femizition - 1/13/2010 9:33:27 AM   
Venatrix


Posts: 2238
Joined: 11/28/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy 

you imply that CDs are inherently more selfish than others, and this strikes me as bigotry.



I implied nothing of the sort.  You inferred it because it appears you have some sort of paranoia about the "persecution" of cross-dressers .  I never mentioned any particular kink in that post, and just because women aren't interested in pandering to a particular kink does not make them bigots.  I suggest you take off the blinders - you'll see more broadly.

(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: forced femizition - 1/13/2010 6:05:30 PM   
QueenRah


Posts: 380
Joined: 6/3/2005
Status: offline 		Otter, that really was beautiful. Thank you.

QR

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RE: forced femizition - 1/13/2010 9:12:23 PM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
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quote:

I implied nothing of the sort.


Actually, I'd guess it's more a case that many women have a visceral, deep-seated dislike and distaste for men who have nothing to offer but their kink and who see every woman who identifies as a domina as nothing more than a means to fulfill that kink, and that's what drives their annoyance.

Your words, not mine. The broad sweeping generalization you make here is a categorical negative, and it implies selfishness on the part of CDs "who see every woman who identifies as a domina as nothing more than a means to fulfill that kink."

When you make such a statement about one particular person, its not bigoted, but when you apply it to a whole categorical group, it is.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 1/13/2010 9:17:04 PM >

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RE: forced femizition - 1/13/2010 9:55:38 PM   
Venatrix


Posts: 2238
Joined: 11/28/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

quote:

I implied nothing of the sort.


Actually, I'd guess it's more a case that many women have a visceral, deep-seated dislike and distaste for men who have nothing to offer but their kink and who see every woman who identifies as a domina as nothing more than a means to fulfill that kink, and that's what drives their annoyance.

Your words, not mine. The broad sweeping generalization you make here is a categorical negative, and it implies selfishness on the part of CDs "who see every woman who identifies as a domina as nothing more than a means to fulfill that kink."

When you make such a statement about one particular person, its not bigoted, but when you apply it to a whole categorical group, it is.


Cloudboy, I'm sorry, but I'm forced to conclude that you either cannot or choose not to understand plain English.  I NEVER said anything about an entire group.  I said "men who have nothing to offer but their kink."  Nowhere did I say that all men were like this.  I was referring to those who fit that particular profile.  I don't know why you have such a large stick up your arse, but perhaps it's because my words have hit home and you feel that you are one of those men?  Given that you are repeatedly twisting my words to mean something that I have categorically denied, I see no further point discussing this issue with you.  My cat is less obtuse than you are.

As an aside, I am currently involved with someone who is fantastic - and in no small measure because he has so much more to offer than just his kink.  There's no way I'd lump all men into the 'do-me' category.  Just a lot of the ones I see posting on these threads.

(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: forced femizition - 1/14/2010 7:07:28 AM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
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quote:

I said "men who have nothing to offer but their kink." Nowhere did I say that all men were like this. I was referring to those who fit that particular profile.


Your statement is indelibly a categorical negative, and it reflects bigoted thinking. Its not surprising you issue a denial and then insinuate something is wrong with me.

Compare and contrast:

"Who would ever hire blacks for this job?"

"No one, because black people have no strong work ethic?"

"Why do women come down on CDs seeking a partner who shares their kink."

"Because CDs have nothing to offer but their kink and they see every woman who identifies as a domina as nothing more than a means to fulfill that kink"

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 1/14/2010 7:09:03 AM >

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RE: forced femizition - 1/14/2010 7:22:11 AM   
Venatrix


Posts: 2238
Joined: 11/28/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

quote:

I said "men who have nothing to offer but their kink." Nowhere did I say that all men were like this. I was referring to those who fit that particular profile.


Your statement is indelibly a categorical negative, and it reflects bigoted thinking. Its not surprising you issue a denial and then insinuate something is wrong with me.

Compare and contrast:

"Who would ever hire blacks for this job?"

"No one, because black people have no strong work ethic?"

"Why do women come down on CDs seeking a partner who shares their kink."

"Because CDs have nothing to offer but their kink and they see every woman who identifies as a domina as nothing more than a means to fulfill that kink"


Your remarks were offensive to me before.  Now you are accusing me of being a racist.  You have gone beyond any level of decency.  I don't care if I get put on moderation for this:  Cloudboy, you are disgusting and you ought to be ashamed of yourself.  You're now saying that not wanting to play with a cross-dresser is the equivalent to thinking that black people have no work ethic?  WTF is wrong with you?  The only explanation for such an outrageous assumption is that you are mentally incapacitated.

I NEVER said that CDs have nothing to offer but their kink.  YOU have changed my words and repeated them as a quotation.  I invite everyone to re-read my post and see you for the liar you are.

And now, I'm out of here.  Permanently.  I don't need to hang around with scum like you.

(in reply to cloudboy)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: forced femizition - 1/14/2010 7:46:07 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy
Compare and contrast:

"Who would ever hire blacks for this job?"

"No one, because black people have no strong work ethic?"

"Why do women come down on CDs seeking a partner who shares their kink."

"Because CDs have nothing to offer but their kink and they see every woman who identifies as a domina as nothing more than a means to fulfill that kink"

You really don't see this as a parallel, do you?  I must have missed the memo that said just because I'm a kinky person, that I have to be willing to accept any and all kinks in My personal life.  The last time I checked, any person out there, regardless of which side of the kneel they are on, can have any personal preference that they desire.  It's like any other kink out there that someone might 'live for' that is on My hard limit list. 


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RE: forced femizition - 1/14/2010 8:55:07 AM   
diaperedbaby


Posts: 158
Joined: 3/13/2005
Status: offline 		Way too many people trying to complicate the simple.

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RE: forced femizition - 1/14/2010 9:22:00 AM   
hardbodysub


Posts: 1654
Joined: 8/7/2005
Status: offline
quote:

It comes down to this.  CM is a dating site focused on power exchange relationships of D/s M/s.


Oh, really? There's no room here for B&D or S&M? They're not merely second-class citizens, they don't even belong here?

(in reply to OttersSwim)
Profile   Post #: 71
RE: forced femizition - 1/14/2010 9:41:08 AM   
OttersSwim


Posts: 2860
Joined: 9/1/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hardbodysub

quote:

It comes down to this.  CM is a dating site focused on power exchange relationships of D/s M/s.


Oh, really? There's no room here for B&D or S&M? They're not merely second-class citizens, they don't even belong here?


For most, B&D and S&M are conducted in the context of a power exchange relationship - even a casual one.  I certainly did not mean to dis them, nor exclude them.  Just stating what I have seen most looking for.


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RE: forced femizition - 1/14/2010 10:30:23 AM   
hardbodysub


Posts: 1654
Joined: 8/7/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OttersSwim

quote:

ORIGINAL: hardbodysub

quote:

It comes down to this.  CM is a dating site focused on power exchange relationships of D/s M/s.


Oh, really? There's no room here for B&D or S&M? They're not merely second-class citizens, they don't even belong here?


For most, B&D and S&M are conducted in the context of a power exchange relationship - even a casual one.  I certainly did not mean to dis them, nor exclude them.  Just stating what I have seen most looking for.



I understand, and no disrespect meant toward you, even though my post kinda looks that way.

I don't mean to project this onto you, but it just seems that people who are more into B&D or S&M are always being treated like second-class citizens by those who are more into D/s. All over the boards, I see people into "power exchange" taking a dim view of those into "kink" only, and continually finding some way to belittle them. There are constant complaints about someone not being a "true" or "real" sub, complaints about guys being too concerned about "their kink" and not enough about "serving". Why not interpret the situation as "that person isn't into the same things that I am", instead of the typical "that guy is a stupid phony who has no clue of what this is all about", because he's only interested in "his kink" and not in the "obviously more valid D/s power exchange, as I define it". It's seldom recognized that "power exchange" can reasonably be viewed as just someone's kink, just as feminization or bondage may be another person's kink.

Frequent posters on CM tend to reinforce the opinion that the "power exchange kink" is somehow better or more valid than any other kink. The attitude is so pervasive that it's almost never questioned, and seems to be an underlying premise, implicitly accepted as true. Outsiders beware. If you appear to challenge this, you will be punished.

(in reply to OttersSwim)
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RE: forced femizition - 1/14/2010 12:24:13 PM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

I understand, and no disrespect meant toward you, even though my post kinda looks that way.

I don't mean to project this onto you, but it just seems that people who are more into B&D or S&M are always being treated like second-class citizens by those who are more into D/s. All over the boards, I see people into "power exchange" taking a dim view of those into "kink" only, and continually finding some way to belittle them. There are constant complaints about someone not being a "true" or "real" sub, complaints about guys being too concerned about "their kink" and not enough about "serving". Why not interpret the situation as "that person isn't into the same things that I am", instead of the typical "that guy is a stupid phony who has no clue of what this is all about", because he's only interested in "his kink" and not in the "obviously more valid D/s power exchange, as I define it". It's seldom recognized that "power exchange" can reasonably be viewed as just someone's kink, just as feminization or bondage may be another person's kink.

Frequent posters on CM tend to reinforce the opinion that the "power exchange kink" is somehow better or more valid than any other kink. The attitude is so pervasive that it's almost never questioned, and seems to be an underlying premise, implicitly accepted as true. Outsiders beware. If you appear to challenge this, you will be punished.


HBS: You have unearthed a real underlying issue here. Well said.

quote:

You really don't see this as a parallel, do you? -- LP.


Yes I do. The wording and intents are mirror images of each other.

quote:

I must have missed the memo that said just because I'm a kinky person, that I have to be willing to accept any and all kinks in My personal life. The last time I checked, any person out there, regardless of which side of the kneel they are on, can have any personal preference that they desire. It's like any other kink out there that someone might 'live for' that is on My hard limit list. --Ladypact


What you say is 100% true. What I have an issue with, though, is denigrating or issuing judgments about others whose kink you don't like. This is otherwise known as biased projection.



< Message edited by cloudboy -- 1/14/2010 12:25:40 PM >

(in reply to hardbodysub)
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RE: forced femizition - 1/14/2010 12:32:51 PM   
cloudboy


Posts: 7306
Joined: 12/14/2005
Status: offline
quote:

I NEVER said that CDs have nothing to offer but their kink.


YES THAT WAS THE MAIN THRUST OF WHAT YOU SAID. For you this was a justifiable reason for women to snark at CDs. For whatever reason, you refuse to see this or own it.

No need to go on a bender, either, all I said was you made a bigoted statement on this thread. The compare and contrast, was, well, nothing more than a compare and contrast of statements -- made for illustrative purposes.

< Message edited by cloudboy -- 1/14/2010 12:36:24 PM >

(in reply to Venatrix)
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RE: forced femizition - 1/14/2010 12:38:02 PM   
AAkasha


Posts: 4429
Joined: 11/27/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hardbodysub


Frequent posters on CM tend to reinforce the opinion that the "power exchange kink" is somehow better or more valid than any other kink. The attitude is so pervasive that it's almost never questioned, and seems to be an underlying premise, implicitly accepted as true. Outsiders beware. If you appear to challenge this, you will be punished.


I think the problem develops when a dominant woman says she is seeking a "submissive" (someone to serve her - specifically, with an emotional, romantic or connection on some level) and they are approached by "bottoms" who say they are submissive, but really they are looking to be topped. It is made more annoying if he's not even selective or cares who she is - he is first, and foremost, interested in (as an example) whether or not she spanks or does CBT, as those are his goal.   It's just a missmatch of desires.

Add to that the reality and fact that as a whole, women are far less likely to have "fetishes" the way men do, and those numbers are further worsened the more obscure and rare the fetish, as well as how intensely focused the man is on the kink as it relates to his BDSM "satisfaction."  There is a whole LOT of "bait and switch" out there - but it's on both ends.  A lot of dominant women portray themselves as uber-kinky, when in reality they want a lot of serving or "worship" (their version, not the fun, sexual kind that many men envision) in exchange for a token barked order here and there. 

I am personally VERY interested in bottoms, and the SKILL of bottoming, but I find that it's a losing battle to find men who are capable (of doing it my way) and are willing to follow my lead in the when, how and why -- I find that *submissives* will do a better job at accommodating my "topping needs" because the acts are secondary to my pleasure.  They like the thrill of submitting to 'acts' - whether they are bondage, S&M, humiliation, you name it -- but really, they enjoy the fact that I enjoy these acts (often at their expense) and the acts are interchangeable.  This makes it so I don't have to have a foot fetishist for Monday, a spanking slut for Tuesday, a strap on slut for Wednesday, and a bondage Bon Bon for the weekend -- all of whom would "poo poo" a change in the Kinky Menu (tm) if I just am not in the mood for that "flavor" that day.  A submissive who is more "all purpose" is just better, for me, because I have a wide variety of kinks.

Bondage remains my main focus, always, but still, I wouldn't do well in the longrun with a guy who was a very capable bondage bottom but didn't like his hair pulled, or didn't know how to whimper just the right way, or had very high expectations on his end regarding the how, why, how intense, and what kind of bondage I used.  Sometimes, to be honest, I just gleefully employ a pair of handcuffs.

Akasha


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RE: forced femizition - 1/14/2010 12:43:52 PM   
onlyme32111


Posts: 25
Joined: 5/4/2008
Status: offline 		My experience with cross-dressers has left me unfulfilled. I've been involved with men who like crossdressing but not submission outside of play time. They approach me as if they're submissive outside the context of their dress-up, but after time passes, it's clear the only submission they're interested in is crossdressing. I suppose I could still dress them up and play with them, for their benefit but the whole idea of that type of scene isn't inspiring enough for me. I don't know enough crossdressers to speak for all, so I can only speak for the men I've come to know. There's something very empty about a fetish which is centered on a person's looks and image and nothing else. I enjoy playing with men with fetishes for strap play or floggings, etc, because there's a back and forth mental flow between he and I. There's a two-way dynamic taking place. For instance, strap on play. He enjoys the way I move my hips while I thrust inside him. He enjoys the look on my face when I smile hearing him moan. His pleasure comes from the stimulation as much as it does from having me, in particular, make love to him. And floggings- he enjoys putting his trust in me and being taken to the edge of pain. His pleasure comes from experiencing me and the way I lie the whip on his skin and the way it marks his flesh. He enjoys the look of pleasure that comes over my face when we examine his marks. There's a back and forth flow between us. But with crossdressers I've experienced, it's a one-way self-focused dynamic, it's all about the his looks and image. There's something unattractive about a man with a preoccupation with his vanity.

(in reply to dirtydiane)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: forced femizition - 1/14/2010 12:51:48 PM   
Domin8tingUrDrmz


Posts: 1269
Joined: 4/8/2006
From: Portland Metro, Oregon
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Venatrix
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Yeah, what about a "forced to endure drinking beer" thread for a change.


Ah, now that's a kink I can get behind. I was just this very afternoon looking for recipes for ancient beers (Dogfish Head have an excellent one, sadly unavailable in the UK), as I've been thinking about returning to home brewing once I move back to England. The thought of someone on his knees in the kitchen saying, "Mistress, stop, please! Don't force to me to drink any more IPA" and I reply "Drink it all, you cur! You will swallow every last drop" makes me quite giddy. Hmm. Maybe I need to stop reading so much BDSM Internet porn.



If you are referring to Midas Touch, I can give you the recipe via CMail. Just let me know.

edited to add quote since my comment was so far removed from what I was replying to.

< Message edited by Domin8tingUrDrmz -- 1/14/2010 1:02:18 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 78
RE: forced femizition - 1/14/2010 1:03:31 PM   
OttersSwim


Posts: 2860
Joined: 9/1/2008
Status: offline 		I dunno HBS, I think it is true that as Ms. Akasha has said the vast majority of females here (and I believe this is true world over) are seeking -relationship- and -emotional or romantic connection- with their kink and in their lives.  It is a fairly common aspect of being female just like the inability to parallel park...  That means that someone just looking to satisfy a single kink without engaging in a relationship - be it crossdressing, or masochism, or ball busting, or trampling is going to be at a severe disadvantage finding someone. 

Clearly, the concept of a "bottom" is much more widely accepted in the community at large and the "currency" of exchange is well understood.  I think that there is a -level of effort- and -return on investment- dynamic involved too - hitting someone with a flogger for 45 minutes and then parting with kind words is much easier and takes much less time than femming up a dude.  And if you are hitting someone, hopefully you are getting at least some of your sadistic needs met, or at least having a good time, neh? 

Not sure what a Lady would get from feminization unless she was seriously into it.  You take that into the context of a relationship however, where both parties are interested and invested in the happiness of the other and suddenly concepts of level of effort and return on investment become easier to negotiate in one's head and heart.

It is the temperature of the water here, and the nature of the people involved in this particular forum - for the most part anyway.

And Ladies...it's okay, I can't parallel park either...I know....I know...I'm gonna burn in hell for that comment... 

< Message edited by OttersSwim -- 1/14/2010 1:04:31 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 79
RE: forced femizition - 1/14/2010 1:46:50 PM   
MissDita


Posts: 33
Joined: 4/13/2008
Status: offline 		"eddited and addressed to the OP"

My first reaction was. Not again a 'forced fem thread' and I'm not even that long on the forum. But after reading the whole threat I will give a decent reply.

I'm not into forced fem, certainly not to that degree. I know My ex slave had a Mistress before Me that forced him, she told him how to dress, how to move, and to be feminised full time. And she started to give him hormones.

I would only force feminisation on to a macho-type male and it would be for one or a few occasions. Or part-time.

I have had a relationship with a transgender girl who was going true transition, and it's a very difficult period, very hard for a relationship to survive this period. And I certainly have to say, that I wouldn't do it again. It is a one-way self-focused dynamic and vanity certainly becomes an issue.

Well anyway I would never force hormones or full-time feminisation on to someone. I'm way to responsible for that. I would consider to guide him true it if he really want to do it (but not in a serious relationship anymore). But that's something different.

I hope this helps in some way.

greetings, Miss Dita

< Message edited by MissDita -- 1/14/2010 2:32:02 PM >

(in reply to Venatrix)
Profile   Post #: 80
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