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ORIGINAL: hardbodysub
...If the sub needs it, and you don't like it, then you're obviously not a good match, and need to find different partners...

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I mentioned the guilt issue merely as an example of another motivation behind forced femme besides the idea that femaleness is somehow demeaning. You probably don't really mean it that way, but the quote above seems to assume (as I've seen many people say in other threads) that this is true of all forced play. It's not.

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Frankly, I think that only a complete idiot would actually demand that you fulfill his desire. It seems rather obvious that if he has a strong desire, he might mention it so you are aware of it, but it's up to you to decide whether you want to go there or not.. But again, no matter how he presents it, if you don't want to have to deal with it, you don't have to.

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Out of curiosity, how would you feel if a sub showed up with manacles, and asked you to use them on him? What if he mentioned a desire for any other forced activity? Or merely to be forced, without mentioning any specific activity? Would that automatically turn you off?

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ORIGINAL: AAkasha

I don't want to complicate what is already a pretty "tired" topic and debate: the issue of "forced" anything and why to femdoms it's often a hot button or bone of contention.  But I look at this whole debate, and I know one thing for myself personally: While I don't like to "force" anything, I am all for roleplaying, and I also like some level of "resistance" or at least "uneasiness."  Sometimes when a sub presents that his fetish has a "forced" element to it, he may just be trying to convey that he's not robotic about it (maybe?), not going to roll over like a limp noodle? I am just guessing.   I may be wrong completely.  If he is suggesting that submission to some acts may require some coercion, that's hot to me. If he is suggesting that some of his fantasies make him scared and uneasy but he'd like to give it a try, but to be patient with him, that's hot too.

I think it becomes annoying to femdoms, maybe, when the sub is basically presenting his fantasy as a two-fold thing for us.  One, we have to do act Y to him.  And second, we have to *act* a certain way, we have to *force* him to do it, because by-the-way, the fantasy for him includes us conforming to an idealized stereotype in his head that we are overpowering, militant, unrelenting, or whatever.  "I am into bondage," leaves it up to us if we want to pick up the game and play it on our terms.  "I like forced bondage," implies that we also have to put on a charade for his benefit - basically, now we're being put into a cookie cutter role.  What if I don't want to "force," what if I would rather "seduce?"  What if my mood THAT NIGHT is for him to BEG for bondage?  What about what role *I* like to play as the femdom?

I have a lot of "roles" I like to adopt based on my mood. It may be forced, it may be coerced, it may be seduced, or I may feel like brave willingness and an eagerness to serve.  But what I don't feel like, on any given night, is told that a sub's fantasy is Y and he wants me to execute it in Y manner.  Once he gets into specifics, I start becoming the prop, not the director.

Akasha

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ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious

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ORIGINAL: hardbodysub
...If the sub needs it, and you don't like it, then you're obviously not a good match, and need to find different partners...

I'll accept that. But there is something about the idea of a sub 'needing' (your word) to be forced that makes me profoundly uneasy.

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I mentioned the guilt issue merely as an example of another motivation behind forced femme besides the idea that femaleness is somehow demeaning. You probably don't really mean it that way, but the quote above seems to assume (as I've seen many people say in other threads) that this is true of all forced play. It's not.

I do sort of mean it that way. If we distinguish between physical forced play, like the kind Anda talks about, and mental forced play, then there does seem to be a level of emotional 'disconnect' (I'm trying to avoid the word 'dishonesty' because it sounds nasty, but it's past midnight, I've just been dancing for three hours straight and I'm shattered, so if someone wants to provide a better alternative I would be grateful) involved in mental forced play.

I don't want to stamp all over your kink, but there is a part of me screaming 'if you have desires, OWN  them! Don't get me to let you pretend they are my desires and not yours...'

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Frankly, I think that only a complete idiot would actually demand that you fulfill his desire. It seems rather obvious that if he has a strong desire, he might mention it so you are aware of it, but it's up to you to decide whether you want to go there or not.. But again, no matter how he presents it, if you don't want to have to deal with it, you don't have to.

I think part of the issue is that a lot of subs into forced femme (NOT all) are 'complete idiots'-most of the cut and paste email demands I get involve forced femme in some way or another, and you just get tired of it, y'know?   Begging to be forced, is a TURN-OFF, for me.  Unless you want me to "force you" to pay all my bills, or "force you" to clean my home, I am all for forcing many things.  

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Out of curiosity, how would you feel if a sub showed up with manacles, and asked you to use them on him? What if he mentioned a desire for any other forced activity? Or merely to be forced, without mentioning any specific activity? Would that automatically turn you off?

I got presented with a wooden mace the other day. The guy in question basically said 'use it however you like on whoever you like'. That was awesome. If he'd said 'I've got this-use it on me' then that would have been a deal-breaker. If he'd said 'I've got this, and I'd like you to use it on me', that wouldn't have been a dealbreaker, but I wouldn't have felt particularly inclined to say yes, and I certainly wouldn't have used the word 'awesome'.

I think a request for forced activity would turn me off, yes. I'm not a roleplay person, and IMO it's roleplay dressed up in another word-you're both pretending the sub isn't willing to do something you both know that they are, and we're back to that whole emotional disconnect thing.

Thanks for expressing how I feel so succinctly!  

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ORIGINAL: Marini

If you are contacting someone and begging and pleading for an activity it is far from forced.
In fact, not only is it not FORCED, it is DEMANDING!  The opposite of Forced!!!

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ORIGINAL: CarrieO

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ORIGINAL: Marini

If you are contacting someone and begging and pleading for an activity it is far from forced.
In fact, not only is it not FORCED, it is DEMANDING!  The opposite of Forced!!!

I was contacted by a man who, after speaking for week online, told me in a phone conversation in great detail how he wanted to be forced into dressing as a woman and to preform "womanly" activites while being forced to wear the dress and heels he would provide.  He was adament about what he wanted me to do and how he wanted it to play out. 
I told him I was open to exploring certain activities but at my pace and in my way (with his fantasy as my base point) he told me it wouldn't work because he needed to have it the exact way he described in order for him to feel the "humiliation of being a woman".....his words, which I haven't been able to forget.

We didn't meet. 

There would have been forcing going on in that exchange...I would have been the one being forced to facilitate this man's fantasy.  It wouldn't have mattered if it was me or any other woman...just a female to force him was all he needed.

No thank you.

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don't want to stamp all over your kink, but there is a part of me screaming 'if you have desires, OWN  them! Don't get me to let you pretend they are my desires and not yours..

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I got presented with a wooden mace the other day. The guy in question basically said 'use it however you like on whoever you like'. That was awesome. If he'd said 'I've got this-use it on me' then that would have been a deal-breaker. If he'd said 'I've got this, and I'd like you to use it on me', that wouldn't have been a dealbreaker, but I wouldn't have felt particularly inclined to say yes, and I certainly wouldn't have used the word 'awesome'.

I think a request for forced activity would turn me off, yes. I'm not a roleplay person, and IMO it's roleplay dressed up in another word-you're both pretending the sub isn't willing to do something you both know that they are, and we're back to that whole emotional disconnect thing.

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ORIGINAL: hardbodysub

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don't want to stamp all over your kink, but there is a part of me screaming 'if you have desires, OWN  them! Don't get me to let you pretend they are my desires and not yours..

And part of me, no ALL of me is screaming "force IS a desire, it IS a kink, and it IS being owned by people who communicate a desire for it."

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ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

For me, the phrase "I want to be forced to do something I like" pretty much sums up much of what it is to be a submissive in the BDSM sense of that word. 

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ORIGINAL: Weetabix

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ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

For me, the phrase "I want to be forced to do something I like" pretty much sums up much of what it is to be a submissive in the BDSM sense of that word. 

But, sometimes, subs want to be forced to do things they *don't* like.  The turn-on comes from the fact that they don't like it or find it humiliating, but are 'forced' to do it anyway, as hardbodysub has already pointed out.  It's the control that gets them off, not necessarily the activity.  This is really hot when it involves being taken by a strap-on or cleaning the loo with a toothbrush in your mouth, or whatever.  It's not so hot when it involves denigrating the physical or other characteristics of a group of people.  Now, admittedly, we could go round in circles by saying that subs really like not liking it, but then we'd never be done with this.

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On a personal note:  I have your Hershey bars.  If you want to see your Hershey bars alive again, please leave £1,000 in unmarked bills in a paper bag outside of the Three Greyhounds pub, just off Charing Cross Road

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online

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ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

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ORIGINAL: Weetabix

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ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

For me, the phrase "I want to be forced to do something I like" pretty much sums up much of what it is to be a submissive in the BDSM sense of that word. 

But, sometimes, subs want to be forced to do things they *don't* like.  The turn-on comes from the fact that they don't like it or find it humiliating, but are 'forced' to do it anyway, as hardbodysub has already pointed out.  It's the control that gets them off, not necessarily the activity.  This is really hot when it involves being taken by a strap-on or cleaning the loo with a toothbrush in your mouth, or whatever.  It's not so hot when it involves denigrating the physical or other characteristics of a group of people.  Now, admittedly, we could go round in circles by saying that subs really like not liking it, but then we'd never be done with this.

That's quite true.  I'd say that for me, anyway, it is largely about the control - the forcing - and not necessarily the activity.  Put it this way, I'd never before fantasised about being ordered to go and buy a domme a packet of cigs - but when it actually happened (my first ever D/s experience), I ran off to the shop like a crab, it was that painful in the undercarriage area.

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On a personal note:  I have your Hershey bars.  If you want to see your Hershey bars alive again, please leave £1,000 in unmarked bills in a paper bag outside of the Three Greyhounds pub, just off Charing Cross Road

Hershey bars plural?  I only asked for one!  Are you trying to make me a fatty!

But - thanks V.  We'll get slaughtered in the Three Greyhounds soon after you arrive.  Muchly looking forward to it.

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If you are contacting someone and begging and pleading for an activity it is far from forced.
In fact, not only is it not FORCED, it is DEMANDING! 

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ORIGINAL: VaguelyCurious

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ORIGINAL: hardbodysub

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don't want to stamp all over your kink, but there is a part of me screaming 'if you have desires, OWN  them! Don't get me to let you pretend they are my desires and not yours..

And part of me, no ALL of me is screaming "force IS a desire, it IS a kink, and it IS being owned by people who communicate a desire for it."

Ok-I know you're serious, and I know that my reaction isn't coming from the most tolerant or accepting YKINMKBYKIOK place-I'm not particularly proud of myself for that-but I also know that my reaction *is* typical of a certain portion of Dommes, and  I was trying to articulate it in a way which clarified it for myself, more than anything, I think.

Can we agree to disagree on this one? I really appreciate you taking the time to talk this through with me, and I've come out of this discussion with a great deal of respect for your thought processes and your composure in the face of me going 'but...but...but...', even if our desires don't align.

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ORIGINAL: hardbodysub

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If you are contacting someone and begging and pleading for an activity it is far from forced.
In fact, not only is it not FORCED, it is DEMANDING! 

Interesting. Begging = demanding. I guess we need a new entry in Wikipedia. ;-)

Let's just boil this whole thing down to what's really bugging people. It's not really force. It's not feminization. It's not even forced feminization. What almost everyone is really complaining about is subs attempting to impose their will upon dominants by trying to direct the activity, regardless of whether the dominant likes it. Well, hell, who's going to disagree about that? What's muddying the issue here is that people have been co-mingling concepts and intertwining force with disliked activities and demanding subs when they're really separate issues.